DN 23 · With Pāyāsi
DN 23 · Pāyāsisutta
So I have heard. At one time Venerable Kassapa the Prince was wandering in the land of the Kosalans together with a large Saṅgha of five hundred mendicants when he arrived at a Kosalan citadel named Setavyā. He stayed in the rosewood grove to the north of Setavyā.
Evaṁ me sutaṁ— ekaṁ samayaṁ āyasmā kumārakassapo kosalesu cārikaṁ caramāno mahatā bhikkhusaṅghena saddhiṁ pañcamattehi bhikkhusatehi yena setabyā nāma kosalānaṁ nagaraṁ tadavasari. Tatra sudaṁ āyasmā kumārakassapo setabyāyaṁ viharati uttarena setabyaṁ siṁsapāvane.
Now at that time the chieftain Pāyāsi was living in Setavyā. It was a crown property given by King Pasenadi of Kosala, teeming with living creatures, full of hay, wood, water, and grain, a royal park endowed to a brahmin.
Tena kho pana samayena pāyāsi rājañño setabyaṁ ajjhāvasati sattussadaṁ satiṇakaṭṭhodakaṁ sadhaññaṁ rājabhoggaṁ raññā pasenadinā kosalena dinnaṁ rājadāyaṁ brahmadeyyaṁ.
1. On Pāyāsi
1. Pāyāsirājaññavatthu
Now at that time Pāyāsi had the following harmful misconception: “There is no afterlife. No beings are reborn spontaneously. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”
Tena kho pana samayena pāyāsissa rājaññassa evarūpaṁ pāpakaṁ diṭṭhigataṁ uppannaṁ hoti: “itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko”ti.
The brahmins and householders of Setavyā heard, “It seems the ascetic Kassapa the Prince—a disciple of the ascetic Gotama—is staying in the rosewood grove to the north of Setavyā. He has this good reputation: ‘He is astute, competent, intelligent, learned, a brilliant speaker, eloquent, mature, a perfected one.’ It’s good to see such perfected ones.” Then, exiting Setavyā, they formed into companies and headed north to the grove.
Assosuṁ kho setabyakā brāhmaṇagahapatikā: “samaṇo khalu bho kumārakassapo samaṇassa gotamassa sāvako kosalesu cārikaṁ caramāno mahatā bhikkhusaṅghena saddhiṁ pañcamattehi bhikkhusatehi setabyaṁ anuppatto setabyāyaṁ viharati uttarena setabyaṁ siṁsapāvane. Taṁ kho pana bhavantaṁ kumārakassapaṁ evaṁ kalyāṇo kittisaddo abbhuggato: ‘paṇḍito byatto medhāvī bahussuto cittakathī kalyāṇapaṭibhāno vuddho ceva arahā ca. Sādhu kho pana tathārūpānaṁ arahataṁ dassanaṁ hotī’”ti. Atha kho setabyakā brāhmaṇagahapatikā setabyāya nikkhamitvā saṅghasaṅghī gaṇībhūtā uttarenamukhā gacchanti yena siṁsapāvanaṁ.
Now at that time the chieftain Pāyāsi had retired to the upper floor of his stilt longhouse for his midday nap. He saw the brahmins and householders heading north toward the grove, and addressed his butler, “My butler, why are the brahmins and householders heading north toward the grove?”
Tena kho pana samayena pāyāsi rājañño uparipāsāde divāseyyaṁ upagato hoti. Addasā kho pāyāsi rājañño setabyake brāhmaṇagahapatike setabyāya nikkhamitvā saṅghasaṅghī gaṇībhūte uttarenamukhe gacchante yena siṁsapāvanaṁ, disvā khattaṁ āmantesi: “kiṁ nu kho, bho khatte, setabyakā brāhmaṇagahapatikā setabyāya nikkhamitvā saṅghasaṅghī gaṇībhūtā uttarenamukhā gacchanti yena siṁsapāvanan”ti?
“The ascetic Kassapa the Prince—a disciple of the ascetic Gotama—is staying in the rosewood grove to the north of Setavyā. He has this good reputation: ‘He is astute, competent, intelligent, learned, a brilliant speaker, eloquent, mature, a perfected one.’ They’re going to see that Kassapa the Prince.”
“Atthi kho, bho, samaṇo kumārakassapo, samaṇassa gotamassa sāvako kosalesu cārikaṁ caramāno mahatā bhikkhusaṅghena saddhiṁ pañcamattehi bhikkhusatehi setabyaṁ anuppatto setabyāyaṁ viharati uttarena setabyaṁ siṁsapāvane. Taṁ kho pana bhavantaṁ kumārakassapaṁ evaṁ kalyāṇo kittisaddo abbhuggato: ‘paṇḍito byatto medhāvī bahussuto cittakathī kalyāṇapaṭibhāno vuddho ceva arahā cā’ti. Tamete bhavantaṁ kumārakassapaṁ dassanāya upasaṅkamantī”ti.
“Well then, go to the brahmins and householders and say to them: ‘Worthy sir, the chieftain Pāyāsi asks you to wait, as he will also go to see the ascetic Kassapa the Prince.’ Before Kassapa the Prince persuades those foolish and incompetent brahmins and householders that there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds— for none of these things are true!”
“Tena hi, bho khatte, yena setabyakā brāhmaṇagahapatikā tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā setabyake brāhmaṇagahapatike evaṁ vadehi: ‘pāyāsi, bho, rājañño evamāha— āgamentu kira bhavanto, pāyāsipi rājañño samaṇaṁ kumārakassapaṁ dassanāya upasaṅkamissatī’ti. Purā samaṇo kumārakassapo setabyake brāhmaṇagahapatike bāle abyatte saññāpeti: ‘itipi atthi paro loko, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’ti. Natthi hi, bho khatte, paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko”ti.
“Yes, worthy sir,” replied the butler, and did as he was asked.
“Evaṁ, bho”ti kho so khattā pāyāsissa rājaññassa paṭissutvā yena setabyakā brāhmaṇagahapatikā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā setabyake brāhmaṇagahapatike etadavoca: “pāyāsi, bho, rājañño evamāha, āgamentu kira bhavanto, pāyāsipi rājañño samaṇaṁ kumārakassapaṁ dassanāya upasaṅkamissatī”ti.
Then Pāyāsi escorted by the brahmins and householders, went up to Kassapa the Prince, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. Before sitting down to one side, some of the brahmins and householders of Setavyā bowed, some exchanged greetings and polite conversation, some held up their cupped palms toward Kassapa the Prince, some announced their name and clan, while some kept silent.
Atha kho pāyāsi rājañño setabyakehi brāhmaṇagahapatikehi parivuto yena siṁsapāvanaṁ yenāyasmā kumārakassapo tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmatā kumārakassapena saddhiṁ sammodi, sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Setabyakāpi kho brāhmaṇagahapatikā appekacce āyasmantaṁ kumārakassapaṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu; appekacce āyasmatā kumārakassapena saddhiṁ sammodiṁsu; sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu. Appekacce yenāyasmā kumārakassapo tenañjaliṁ paṇāmetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu. Appekacce nāmagottaṁ sāvetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu. Appekacce tuṇhībhūtā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu.
2. Nihilism
2. Natthikavāda
Seated to one side, the chieftain Pāyāsi said to Venerable Kassapa the Prince, “Worthy Kassapa, this is my doctrine and view: ‘There is no afterlife. No beings are reborn spontaneously. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.’”
Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho pāyāsi rājañño āyasmantaṁ kumārakassapaṁ etadavoca: “ahañhi, bho kassapa, evaṁvādī evaṁdiṭṭhī: ‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.
“Chieftain, may I never see or hear of anyone holding such a doctrine or view! For how on earth can anyone say such a thing?
“Nāhaṁ, rājañña, evaṁvādiṁ evaṁdiṭṭhiṁ addasaṁ vā assosiṁ vā. Kathañhi nāma evaṁ vadeyya: ‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’ti?
2.1. The Simile of the Moon and Sun
2.1. Candimasūriyaupamā
Well then, chieftain, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, chieftain? Are the moon and sun in this world or the other world? Are they gods or humans?”
Tena hi, rājañña, taññevettha paṭipucchissāmi, yathā te khameyya, tathā naṁ byākareyyāsi. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, rājañña, ime candimasūriyā imasmiṁ vā loke parasmiṁ vā, devā vā te manussā vā”ti?
“They are in the other world, worthy Kassapa, and they are gods, not humans.”
“Ime, bho kassapa, candimasūriyā parasmiṁ loke, na imasmiṁ; devā te na manussā”ti.
“By this method it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”
“Imināpi kho te, rājañña, pariyāyena evaṁ hotu— itipi atthi paro loko, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko”ti.
“Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think that there is no afterlife, no beings are reborn spontaneously, and there’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”
“Kiñcāpi bhavaṁ kassapo evamāha, atha kho evaṁ me ettha hoti: ‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.
“Is there a method by which you can prove what you say?”
“Atthi pana, rājañña, pariyāyo, yena te pariyāyena evaṁ hoti: ‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti?
“There is, worthy Kassapa.”
“Atthi, bho kassapa, pariyāyo, yena me pariyāyena evaṁ hoti: ‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.
“How, exactly, chieftain?”
“Yathā kathaṁ viya, rājaññā”ti?
“Well, I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who kill living creatures, steal, and commit sexual misconduct. They use speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re covetous, malicious, with wrong view. Some time later they become sick, suffering, gravely ill. When I know that they will not recover from their illness, I go to them and say, ‘Worthy sir, there are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: “Those who kill living creatures, steal, and commit sexual misconduct; use speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical; and are covetous, malicious, and have wrong view—when their body breaks up, after death, are reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.” You do all these things. If what those ascetics and brahmins say is true, when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. If that happens, worthy sir, come and tell me that there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds. I trust you and believe you. Anything you see will be just as if I’ve seen it for myself.’ They agree to this. But they don’t come back to tell me, nor do they send a messenger. This is the method by which I prove that there is no afterlife, no beings are reborn spontaneously, and there’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”
“Idha me, bho kassapa, mittāmaccā ñātisālohitā pāṇātipātī adinnādāyī kāmesumicchācārī musāvādī pisuṇavācā pharusavācā samphappalāpī abhijjhālū byāpannacittā micchādiṭṭhī. Te aparena samayena ābādhikā honti dukkhitā bāḷhagilānā. Yadāhaṁ jānāmi: ‘na dānime imamhā ābādhā vuṭṭhahissantī’ti tyāhaṁ upasaṅkamitvā evaṁ vadāmi: ‘santi kho, bho, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā evaṁvādino evaṁdiṭṭhino: “ye te pāṇātipātī adinnādāyī kāmesumicchācārī musāvādī pisuṇavācā pharusavācā samphappalāpī abhijjhālū byāpannacittā micchādiṭṭhī, te kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā apāyaṁ duggatiṁ vinipātaṁ nirayaṁ upapajjantī”ti. Bhavanto kho pāṇātipātī adinnādāyī kāmesumicchācārī musāvādī pisuṇavācā pharusavācā samphappalāpī abhijjhālū byāpannacittā micchādiṭṭhī. Sace tesaṁ bhavataṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ saccaṁ vacanaṁ, bhavanto kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā apāyaṁ duggatiṁ vinipātaṁ nirayaṁ upapajjissanti. Sace, bho, kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā apāyaṁ duggatiṁ vinipātaṁ nirayaṁ upapajjeyyātha, yena me āgantvā āroceyyātha: “itipi atthi paro loko, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko”ti. Bhavanto kho pana me saddhāyikā paccayikā, yaṁ bhavantehi diṭṭhaṁ, yathā sāmaṁ diṭṭhaṁ evametaṁ bhavissatī’ti. Te me ‘sādhū’ti paṭissutvā neva āgantvā ārocenti, na pana dūtaṁ pahiṇanti. Ayampi kho, bho kassapa, pariyāyo, yena me pariyāyena evaṁ hoti: ‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.
2.2. The Simile of the Bandit
2.2. Coraupamā
“Well then, chieftain, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, chieftain? Suppose they were to arrest a bandit, a criminal and present him to you, saying, ‘Sir, this is a bandit, a criminal. Punish him as you will.’ Then you’d say to them, ‘Well then, my men, tie this man’s arms tightly behind his back with a strong rope. Shave his head and march him from street to street and square to square to the beating of a harsh drum. Then take him out the south gate and there, at the place of execution to the south of the city, chop off his head.’ Saying, ‘Good,’ they’d do as they were told, sitting him down at the place of execution. Could that bandit get the executioners to wait, saying, ‘Please, good executioners! I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin in such-and-such village or town. Wait until I’ve visited them, then I’ll come back’? Or would they just chop off his head as he prattled on?”
“Tena hi, rājañña, taññevettha paṭipucchissāmi. Yathā te khameyya tathā naṁ byākareyyāsi. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, rājañña, idha te purisā coraṁ āgucāriṁ gahetvā dasseyyuṁ: ‘ayaṁ te, bhante, coro āgucārī; imassa yaṁ icchasi, taṁ daṇḍaṁ paṇehī’ti. Te tvaṁ evaṁ vadeyyāsi: ‘tena hi, bho, imaṁ purisaṁ daḷhāya rajjuyā pacchābāhaṁ gāḷhabandhanaṁ bandhitvā khuramuṇḍaṁ karitvā kharassarena paṇavena rathikāya rathikaṁ siṅghāṭakena siṅghāṭakaṁ parinetvā dakkhiṇena dvārena nikkhamitvā dakkhiṇato nagarassa āghātane sīsaṁ chindathā’ti. Te ‘sādhū’ti paṭissutvā taṁ purisaṁ daḷhāya rajjuyā pacchābāhaṁ gāḷhabandhanaṁ bandhitvā khuramuṇḍaṁ karitvā kharassarena paṇavena rathikāya rathikaṁ siṅghāṭakena siṅghāṭakaṁ parinetvā dakkhiṇena dvārena nikkhamitvā dakkhiṇato nagarassa āghātane nisīdāpeyyuṁ. Labheyya nu kho so coro coraghātesu: ‘āgamentu tāva bhavanto coraghātā, amukasmiṁ me gāme vā nigame vā mittāmaccā ñātisālohitā, yāvāhaṁ tesaṁ uddisitvā āgacchāmī’ti, udāhu vippalapantasseva coraghātā sīsaṁ chindeyyun”ti?
“Na hi so, bho kassapa, coro labheyya coraghātesu: ‘āgamentu tāva bhavanto coraghātā amukasmiṁ me gāme vā nigame vā mittāmaccā ñātisālohitā, yāvāhaṁ tesaṁ uddisitvā āgacchāmī’ti.
“They’d just chop off his head.”
Atha kho naṁ vippalapantasseva coraghātā sīsaṁ chindeyyun”ti.
“So even a human bandit couldn’t get his human executioners to stay his execution. What then of your friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who are reborn in a lower realm after doing bad things? Could they get the wardens of hell to wait, saying, ‘Please, good wardens of hell! Wait until I’ve gone to the chieftain Pāyāsi to tell him that there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds’? By this method, too, it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”
“So hi nāma, rājañña, coro manusso manussabhūtesu coraghātesu na labhissati: ‘āgamentu tāva bhavanto coraghātā, amukasmiṁ me gāme vā nigame vā mittāmaccā ñātisālohitā, yāvāhaṁ tesaṁ uddisitvā āgacchāmī’ti. Kiṁ pana te mittāmaccā ñātisālohitā pāṇātipātī adinnādāyī kāmesumicchācārī musāvādī pisuṇavācā pharusavācā samphappalāpī abhijjhālū byāpannacittā micchādiṭṭhī, te kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā apāyaṁ duggatiṁ vinipātaṁ nirayaṁ upapannā labhissanti nirayapālesu: ‘āgamentu tāva bhavanto nirayapālā, yāva mayaṁ pāyāsissa rājaññassa gantvā ārocema: “itipi atthi paro loko, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko”’ti? Imināpi kho te, rājañña, pariyāyena evaṁ hotu: ‘itipi atthi paro loko, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.
“Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think that there is no afterlife.”
“Kiñcāpi bhavaṁ kassapo evamāha, atha kho evaṁ me ettha hoti: ‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.
“Is there a method by which you can prove what you say?”
“Atthi pana, rājañña, pariyāyo yena te pariyāyena evaṁ hoti: ‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti?
“There is, worthy Kassapa.”
“Atthi, bho kassapa, pariyāyo, yena me pariyāyena evaṁ hoti: ‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.
“How, exactly, chieftain?”
“Yathā kathaṁ viya, rājaññā”ti?
“Well, I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who refrain from killing living creatures, stealing, and sexual misconduct. They refrain from speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re content, kind-hearted, with right view. Some time later they become sick, suffering, gravely ill. When I know that they will not recover from their illness, I go to them and say, ‘Worthy sir, there are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: “Those who refrain from killing living creatures, stealing, and sexual misconduct; who refrain from speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical; and are content, kind-hearted, with right view—when their body breaks up, after death, are reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.” You do all these things. If what those ascetics and brahmins say is true, when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. If that happens, worthy sir, come and tell me that there is an afterlife. I trust you and believe you. Anything you see will be just as if I’ve seen it for myself.’ They agree to this. But they don’t come back to tell me, nor do they send a messenger. This is the method by which I prove that there is no afterlife.”
“Idha me, bho kassapa, mittāmaccā ñātisālohitā pāṇātipātā paṭiviratā adinnādānā paṭiviratā kāmesumicchācārā paṭiviratā musāvādā paṭiviratā pisuṇāya vācāya paṭiviratā pharusāya vācāya paṭiviratā samphappalāpā paṭiviratā anabhijjhālū abyāpannacittā sammādiṭṭhī. Te aparena samayena ābādhikā honti dukkhitā bāḷhagilānā. Yadāhaṁ jānāmi: ‘na dānime imamhā ābādhā vuṭṭhahissantī’ti tyāhaṁ upasaṅkamitvā evaṁ vadāmi: ‘santi kho, bho, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā evaṁvādino evaṁdiṭṭhino: “ye te pāṇātipātā paṭiviratā adinnādānā paṭiviratā kāmesumicchācārā paṭiviratā musāvādā paṭiviratā pisuṇāya vācāya paṭiviratā pharusāya vācāya paṭiviratā samphappalāpā paṭiviratā anabhijjhālū abyāpannacittā sammādiṭṭhī te kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā sugatiṁ saggaṁ lokaṁ upapajjantī”ti. Bhavanto kho pāṇātipātā paṭiviratā adinnādānā paṭiviratā kāmesumicchācārā paṭiviratā musāvādā paṭiviratā pisuṇāya vācāya paṭiviratā pharusāya vācāya paṭiviratā samphappalāpā paṭiviratā anabhijjhālū abyāpannacittā sammādiṭṭhī. Sace tesaṁ bhavataṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ saccaṁ vacanaṁ, bhavanto kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā sugatiṁ saggaṁ lokaṁ upapajjissanti. Sace, bho, kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā sugatiṁ saggaṁ lokaṁ upapajjeyyātha, yena me āgantvā āroceyyātha: “itipi atthi paro loko, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko”ti. Bhavanto kho pana me saddhāyikā paccayikā, yaṁ bhavantehi diṭṭhaṁ, yathā sāmaṁ diṭṭhaṁ evametaṁ bhavissatī’ti. Te me ‘sādhū’ti paṭissutvā neva āgantvā ārocenti, na pana dūtaṁ pahiṇanti. Ayampi kho, bho kassapa, pariyāyo, yena me pariyāyena evaṁ hoti: ‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.
2.3. The Simile of the Sewer
2.3. Gūthakūpapurisaupamā
“Well then, chieftain, I shall give you a simile. For by means of a simile some sensible people understand the meaning of what is said. Suppose there were a man sunk over his head in a sewer. Then you were to order someone to pull him out of the sewer, and they’d agree to do so. Then you’d tell them to carefully scrape the dung off that man’s body with bamboo scrapers, and they’d agree to do so. Then you’d tell them to carefully scrub that man’s body down with pale clay three times, and they’d do so. Then you’d tell them to smear that man’s body with oil, and carefully wash him down with fine paste three times, and they’d do so. Then you’d tell them to dress that man’s hair and beard, and they’d do so. Then you’d tell them to provide that man with costly garlands, makeup, and clothes, and they’d do so. Then you’d tell them to bring that man up to the stilt longhouse and set him up with the five kinds of sensual stimulation, and they’d do so.
“Tena hi, rājañña, upamaṁ te karissāmi. Upamāya m’idhekacce viññū purisā bhāsitassa atthaṁ ājānanti. Seyyathāpi, rājañña, puriso gūthakūpe sasīsakaṁ nimuggo assa. Atha tvaṁ purise āṇāpeyyāsi: ‘tena hi, bho, taṁ purisaṁ tamhā gūthakūpā uddharathā’ti. Te ‘sādhū’ti paṭissutvā taṁ purisaṁ tamhā gūthakūpā uddhareyyuṁ. Te tvaṁ evaṁ vadeyyāsi: ‘tena hi, bho, tassa purisassa kāyā veḷupesikāhi gūthaṁ sunimmajjitaṁ nimmajjathā’ti. Te ‘sādhū’ti paṭissutvā tassa purisassa kāyā veḷupesikāhi gūthaṁ sunimmajjitaṁ nimmajjeyyuṁ. Te tvaṁ evaṁ vadeyyāsi: ‘tena hi, bho, tassa purisassa kāyaṁ paṇḍumattikāya tikkhattuṁ subbaṭṭitaṁ ubbaṭṭethā’ti. Te tassa purisassa kāyaṁ paṇḍumattikāya tikkhattuṁ subbaṭṭitaṁ ubbaṭṭeyyuṁ. Te tvaṁ evaṁ vadeyyāsi: ‘tena hi, bho, taṁ purisaṁ telena abbhañjitvā sukhumena cuṇṇena tikkhattuṁ suppadhotaṁ karothā’ti. Te taṁ purisaṁ telena abbhañjitvā sukhumena cuṇṇena tikkhattuṁ suppadhotaṁ kareyyuṁ. Te tvaṁ evaṁ vadeyyāsi: ‘tena hi, bho, tassa purisassa kesamassuṁ kappethā’ti. Te tassa purisassa kesamassuṁ kappeyyuṁ. Te tvaṁ evaṁ vadeyyāsi: ‘tena hi, bho, tassa purisassa mahagghañca mālaṁ mahagghañca vilepanaṁ mahagghāni ca vatthāni upaharathā’ti. Te tassa purisassa mahagghañca mālaṁ mahagghañca vilepanaṁ mahagghāni ca vatthāni upahareyyuṁ. Te tvaṁ evaṁ vadeyyāsi: ‘tena hi, bho, taṁ purisaṁ pāsādaṁ āropetvā pañcakāmaguṇāni upaṭṭhāpethā’ti. Te taṁ purisaṁ pāsādaṁ āropetvā pañcakāmaguṇāni upaṭṭhāpeyyuṁ.
What do you think, chieftain? Now that man is nicely bathed and anointed, with hair and beard dressed, bedecked with garlands and bracelets, dressed in white, supplied and provided with the five kinds of sensual stimulation upstairs in the royal longhouse. Would he want to plunge back into that sewer again?”
Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, rājañña, api nu tassa purisassa sunhātassa suvilittassa sukappitakesamassussa āmukkamālābharaṇassa odātavatthavasanassa uparipāsādavaragatassa pañcahi kāmaguṇehi samappitassa samaṅgībhūtassa paricārayamānassa punadeva tasmiṁ gūthakūpe nimujjitukāmatā assā”ti?
“No, worthy Kassapa. Why is that? Because that sewer is filthy, stinking, disgusting, and repulsive, and it’s regarded as such.”
“No hidaṁ, bho kassapa”. “Taṁ kissa hetu”? “Asuci, bho kassapa, gūthakūpo asuci ceva asucisaṅkhāto ca duggandho ca duggandhasaṅkhāto ca jeguccho ca jegucchasaṅkhāto ca paṭikūlo ca paṭikūlasaṅkhāto cā”ti.
“In the same way, chieftain, to the gods, human beings are filthy, stinking, disgusting, and repulsive, and are regarded as such. The smell of humans reaches the gods even a hundred leagues away. What then of your friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who are reborn in a higher realm after doing good things? Will they come back to tell you that there is an afterlife? By this method, too, it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife.”
“Evameva kho, rājañña, manussā devānaṁ asucī ceva asucisaṅkhātā ca, duggandhā ca duggandhasaṅkhātā ca, jegucchā ca jegucchasaṅkhātā ca, paṭikūlā ca paṭikūlasaṅkhātā ca. Yojanasataṁ kho, rājañña, manussagandho deve ubbādhati. Kiṁ pana te mittāmaccā ñātisālohitā pāṇātipātā paṭiviratā adinnādānā paṭiviratā kāmesumicchācārā paṭiviratā musāvādā paṭiviratā pisuṇāya vācāya paṭiviratā pharusāya vācāya paṭiviratā samphappalāpā paṭiviratā anabhijjhālū abyāpannacittā sammādiṭṭhī, kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā sugatiṁ saggaṁ lokaṁ upapannā te āgantvā ārocessanti: ‘itipi atthi paro loko, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’ti? Imināpi kho te, rājañña, pariyāyena evaṁ hotu: ‘itipi atthi paro loko, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.
“Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think that there is no afterlife.”
“Kiñcāpi bhavaṁ kassapo evamāha, atha kho evaṁ me ettha hoti: ‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.
“Can you prove it?”
“Atthi pana, rājañña, pariyāyo …pe…
“I can.”
“atthi, bho kassapa, pariyāyo …pe…
“How, exactly, chieftain?”
yathā kathaṁ viya, rājaññāti?
“Well, I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who refrain from killing living creatures and so on. Some time later they become sick, suffering, gravely ill. When I know that they will not recover from their illness, I go to them and say, ‘Worthy sir, there are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: “Those who refrain from killing living creatures and so on are reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm, in the company of the gods of the thirty-three.” You do all these things. If what those ascetics and brahmins say is true, when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be reborn in the company of the gods of the thirty-three. If that happens, worthy sir, come and tell me that there is an afterlife. I trust you and believe you. Anything you see will be just as if I’ve seen it for myself.’ They agree to this. But they don’t come back to tell me, nor do they send a messenger. This is how I prove that there is no afterlife.”
“Idha me, bho kassapa, mittāmaccā ñātisālohitā pāṇātipātā paṭiviratā adinnādānā paṭiviratā kāmesumicchācārā paṭiviratā musāvādā paṭiviratā surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā paṭiviratā, te aparena samayena ābādhikā honti dukkhitā bāḷhagilānā. Yadāhaṁ jānāmi: ‘na dānime imamhā ābādhā vuṭṭhahissantī’ti tyāhaṁ upasaṅkamitvā evaṁ vadāmi: ‘santi kho, bho, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā evaṁvādino evaṁdiṭṭhino: “ye te pāṇātipātā paṭiviratā adinnādānā paṭiviratā kāmesumicchācārā paṭiviratā musāvādā paṭiviratā surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā paṭiviratā, te kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā sugatiṁ saggaṁ lokaṁ upapajjanti devānaṁ tāvatiṁsānaṁ sahabyatan”ti. Bhavanto kho pāṇātipātā paṭiviratā adinnādānā paṭiviratā kāmesumicchācārā paṭiviratā musāvādā paṭiviratā surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā paṭiviratā. Sace tesaṁ bhavataṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ saccaṁ vacanaṁ, bhavanto kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā sugatiṁ saggaṁ lokaṁ upapajjissanti, devānaṁ tāvatiṁsānaṁ sahabyataṁ. Sace, bho, kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā sugatiṁ saggaṁ lokaṁ upapajjeyyātha devānaṁ tāvatiṁsānaṁ sahabyataṁ, yena me āgantvā āroceyyātha: “itipi atthi paro loko, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko”ti. Bhavanto kho pana me saddhāyikā paccayikā, yaṁ bhavantehi diṭṭhaṁ, yathā sāmaṁ diṭṭhaṁ evametaṁ bhavissatī’ti. Te me ‘sādhū’ti paṭissutvā neva āgantvā ārocenti, na pana dūtaṁ pahiṇanti. Ayampi kho, bho kassapa, pariyāyo, yena me pariyāyena evaṁ hoti: ‘itipi natthi paro loko, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.
2.4. The Simile of the gods of the thirty-three
2.4. Tāvatiṁsadevaupamā
“Well then, chieftain, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. A hundred human years are equivalent to one day and night for the gods of the thirty-three. Thirty such days make a month, and twelve months make a year. The gods of the thirty-three have a lifespan of a thousand such years. Now, as to your friends who are reborn in the company of the gods of the thirty-three after doing good things. If they think, ‘First I’ll amuse myself for two or three days, supplied and provided with the five kinds of heavenly sensual stimulation. Then I’ll go back to Pāyāsi and tell him that there is an afterlife.’ Would they come back to tell you that there is an afterlife?”
“Tena hi, rājañña, taññevettha paṭipucchissāmi; yathā te khameyya, tathā naṁ byākareyyāsi. Yaṁ kho pana, rājañña, mānussakaṁ vassasataṁ, devānaṁ tāvatiṁsānaṁ eso eko rattindivo, tāya rattiyā tiṁsarattiyo māso, tena māsena dvādasamāsiyo saṁvaccharo, tena saṁvaccharena dibbaṁ vassasahassaṁ devānaṁ tāvatiṁsānaṁ āyuppamāṇaṁ. Ye te mittāmaccā ñātisālohitā pāṇātipātā paṭiviratā adinnādānā paṭiviratā kāmesumicchācārā paṭiviratā musāvādā paṭiviratā surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā paṭiviratā, te kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā sugatiṁ saggaṁ lokaṁ upapannā devānaṁ tāvatiṁsānaṁ sahabyataṁ. Sace pana tesaṁ evaṁ bhavissati: ‘yāva mayaṁ dve vā tīṇi vā rattindivā dibbehi pañcahi kāmaguṇehi samappitā samaṅgībhūtā paricārema, atha mayaṁ pāyāsissa rājaññassa gantvā āroceyyāma: “itipi atthi paro loko, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko”ti. Api nu te āgantvā āroceyyuṁ— itipi atthi paro loko, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti?
“No, worthy Kassapa. For I would be long dead by then. But worthy Kassapa, who has told you that the gods of the thirty-three exist, or that they have such a long lifespan? I don’t believe you.”
“No hidaṁ, bho kassapa. Api hi mayaṁ, bho kassapa, ciraṁ kālaṅkatāpi bhaveyyāma. Ko panetaṁ bhoto kassapassa āroceti: ‘atthi devā tāvatiṁsā’ti vā ‘evaṁdīghāyukā devā tāvatiṁsā’ti vā. Na mayaṁ bhoto kassapassa saddahāma: ‘atthi devā tāvatiṁsā’ti vā ‘evaṁdīghāyukā devā tāvatiṁsā’ti vā”ti.
2.5. Blind From Birth
2.5. Jaccandhaupamā
“Chieftain, suppose there was a person blind from birth. They couldn’t see sights that are dark or bright, or blue, yellow, red, or magenta. They couldn’t see even and uneven ground, or the stars, or the moon and sun. They’d say, ‘There’s no such thing as dark and bright sights, and no one who sees them. There’s no such thing as blue, yellow, red, magenta, even and uneven ground, stars, moon and sun, and no one who sees these things. I don’t know it or see it, therefore it doesn’t exist.’ Would they be speaking rightly?”
“Seyyathāpi, rājañña, jaccandho puriso na passeyya kaṇha—sukkāni rūpāni, na passeyya nīlakāni rūpāni, na passeyya pītakāni rūpāni, na passeyya lohitakāni rūpāni, na passeyya mañjiṭṭhakāni rūpāni, na passeyya samavisamaṁ, na passeyya tārakāni rūpāni, na passeyya candimasūriye. So evaṁ vadeyya: ‘natthi kaṇhasukkāni rūpāni, natthi kaṇhasukkānaṁ rūpānaṁ dassāvī. Natthi nīlakāni rūpāni, natthi nīlakānaṁ rūpānaṁ dassāvī. Natthi pītakāni rūpāni, natthi pītakānaṁ rūpānaṁ dassāvī. Natthi lohitakāni rūpāni, natthi lohitakānaṁ rūpānaṁ dassāvī. Natthi mañjiṭṭhakāni rūpāni, natthi mañjiṭṭhakānaṁ rūpānaṁ dassāvī. Natthi samavisamaṁ, natthi samavisamassa dassāvī. Natthi tārakāni rūpāni, natthi tārakānaṁ rūpānaṁ dassāvī. Natthi candimasūriyā, natthi candimasūriyānaṁ dassāvī. Ahametaṁ na jānāmi, ahametaṁ na passāmi, tasmā taṁ natthī’ti. Sammā nu kho so, rājañña, vadamāno vadeyyā”ti?
“No, worthy Kassapa. There are such things as dark and bright sights, and one who sees them. And those other things are real, too, as is the one who sees them. So it’s not right to say this: ‘I don’t know it or see it, therefore it doesn’t exist.’”
“No hidaṁ, bho kassapa. Atthi kaṇhasukkāni rūpāni, atthi kaṇhasukkānaṁ rūpānaṁ dassāvī. Atthi nīlakāni rūpāni, atthi nīlakānaṁ rūpānaṁ dassāvī …pe… atthi samavisamaṁ, atthi samavisamassa dassāvī. Atthi tārakāni rūpāni, atthi tārakānaṁ rūpānaṁ dassāvī. Atthi candimasūriyā, atthi candimasūriyānaṁ dassāvī. ‘Ahametaṁ na jānāmi, ahametaṁ na passāmi, tasmā taṁ natthī’ti. Na hi so, bho kassapa, sammā vadamāno vadeyyā”ti.
“In the same way, chieftain, when you tell me you don’t believe me you seem like the blind man in the simile. You can’t see the other world the way you think, with the eye of the flesh. There are ascetics and brahmins who live in the wilderness, frequenting remote lodgings in the wilderness and the forest. Meditating diligent, keen, and resolute, they purify the heavenly eye, the power of clairvoyance. With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, they see this world and the other world, and sentient beings who are spontaneously reborn. That’s how to see the other world, not how you think, with the eye of the flesh. By this method, too, it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife.”
“Evameva kho tvaṁ, rājañña, jaccandhūpamo maññe paṭibhāsi yaṁ maṁ tvaṁ evaṁ vadesi. Ko panetaṁ bhoto kassapassa āroceti: ‘atthi devā tāvatiṁsā’ti vā, ‘evaṁdīghāyukā devā tāvatiṁsā’ti vā? Na mayaṁ bhoto kassapassa saddahāma: ‘atthi devā tāvatiṁsā’ti vā ‘evaṁdīghāyukā devā tāvatiṁsā’ti vā”ti. “Na kho, rājañña, evaṁ paro loko daṭṭhabbo, yathā tvaṁ maññasi iminā maṁsacakkhunā. Ye kho te, rājañña, samaṇabrāhmaṇā araññavanapatthāni pantāni senāsanāni paṭisevanti, te tattha appamattā ātāpino pahitattā viharantā dibbacakkhuṁ visodhenti. Te dibbena cakkhunā visuddhena atikkantamānusakena imañceva lokaṁ passanti parañca satte ca opapātike. Evañca kho, rājañña, paro loko daṭṭhabbo; na tveva yathā tvaṁ maññasi iminā maṁsacakkhunā. Imināpi kho te, rājañña, pariyāyena evaṁ hotu: ‘itipi atthi paro loko, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko’”ti.