The Undeclared Points · SN 44.1–44.5

SN 44.1 · With Khemā

SN 44.1 · Khemāsutta

At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery.

Ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā sāvatthiyaṁ viharati jetavane anāthapiṇḍikassa ārāme.

Now at that time the nun Khemā was wandering in the land of the Kosalans between Sāvatthī and Sāketa when she took up residence in Toraṇavatthu. Then King Pasenadi was traveling from Sāketa to Sāvatthī, and he too stayed in Toraṇavatthu for a single night.

Tena kho pana samayena khemā bhikkhunī kosalesu cārikaṁ caramānā antarā ca sāvatthiṁ antarā ca sāketaṁ toraṇavatthusmiṁ vāsaṁ upagatā hoti. Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo sāketā sāvatthiṁ gacchanto, antarā ca sāketaṁ antarā ca sāvatthiṁ toraṇavatthusmiṁ ekarattivāsaṁ upagacchi.

Then King Pasenadi addressed a man, “Please, my man, check if there’s a suitable (male) ascetic or brahmin in Toraṇavatthu to whom I can pay homage.”

Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo aññataraṁ purisaṁ āmantesi: “ehi tvaṁ, ambho purisa, toraṇavatthusmiṁ tathārūpaṁ samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā jāna yamahaṁ ajja payirupāseyyan”ti.

“Yes, Your Majesty,” replied that man. He searched all over Toraṇavatthu, but he couldn’t see a suitable ascetic or brahmin for the king to pay homage to.

“Evaṁ, devā”ti kho so puriso rañño pasenadissa kosalassa paṭissutvā kevalakappaṁ toraṇavatthuṁ āhiṇḍanto nāddasa tathārūpaṁ samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā yaṁ rājā pasenadi kosalo payirupāseyya.

But he saw that the nun Khemā was staying there, so he went to the king and said to him, “Your Majesty, there’s no (male) ascetic or brahmin in Toraṇavatthu for the king to pay homage to. But there is the nun Khemā, who’s a disciple of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. She has a good reputation as being astute, competent, intelligent, learned, a brilliant speaker, and eloquent. Your Majesty may pay homage to her.”

Addasā kho so puriso khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ toraṇavatthusmiṁ vāsaṁ upagataṁ. Disvāna yena rājā pasenadi kosalo tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā rājānaṁ pasenadiṁ kosalaṁ etadavoca: “Natthi kho, deva, toraṇavatthusmiṁ tathārūpo samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā yaṁ devo payirupāseyya. Atthi ca kho, deva, khemā nāma bhikkhunī, tassa bhagavato sāvikā arahato sammāsambuddhassa. Tassā kho pana ayyāya evaṁ kalyāṇo kittisaddo abbhuggato: ‘paṇḍitā, viyattā medhāvinī bahussutā cittakathā kalyāṇapaṭibhānā’ti. Taṁ devo payirupāsatū”ti.

Then King Pasenadi of Kosala went up to the nun Khemā, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to her:

Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo yena khemā bhikkhunī tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho rājā pasenadi kosalo khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ etadavoca:

“Ma’am, does a realized one still exist after death?”

“kiṁ nu kho, ayye, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?

“Great king, this has not been declared by the Buddha.”

“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, bhagavatā: ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Well then, does a realized one no longer exist after death?”

“Kiṁ panayye, na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?

“This too has not been declared by the Buddha.”

“Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ bhagavatā: ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Well then, does a realized one both still exist and no longer exist after death?”

“Kiṁ nu kho, ayye, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?

“This has not been declared by the Buddha.”

“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, bhagavatā: ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Well then, does a realized one neither still exist nor no longer exist after death?”

“Kiṁ panayye, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti.

“This too has not been declared by the Buddha.”

“Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ bhagavatā: ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Ma’am, when asked these questions, you say that this has not been declared by the Buddha. What’s the cause, what’s the reason why this has not been declared by the Buddha?”

“‘Kiṁ nu kho, ayye, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti, iti puṭṭhā samānā: ‘abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, bhagavatā— hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi. ‘Kiṁ panayye, na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭhā samānā: ‘etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ bhagavatā— na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi. ‘Kiṁ nu kho, ayye, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭhā samānā: ‘abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, bhagavatā— hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi. ‘Kiṁ panayye, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭhā samānā: ‘etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ bhagavatā— neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi. Ko nu kho, ayye, hetu, ko paccayo yenetaṁ abyākataṁ bhagavatā”ti?

“Well then, Great King, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, Great King?

“Tena hi, mahārāja, taññevettha paṭipucchissāmi. Yathā te khameyya tathā naṁ byākareyyāsi. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, mahārāja,

Do you have any accountant or finger-tallier or reckoner who can count the grains of sand in the Ganges, that is, how many grains of sand there are, how many hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of grains of sand?”

atthi te koci gaṇako vā muddiko vā saṅkhāyako vā yo pahoti gaṅgāya vālukaṁ gaṇetuṁ— ettakā vālukā iti vā, ettakāni vālukasatāni iti vā, ettakāni vālukasahassāni iti vā, ettakāni vālukasatasahassāni iti vā”ti?

“No, ma’am.”

“No hetaṁ, ayye”.

“Do you have any accountant or finger-tallier or reckoner who can count the water in the ocean, that is, how many gallons of water there are, how many hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of gallons of water?”

“Atthi pana te koci gaṇako vā muddiko vā saṅkhāyako vā yo pahoti mahāsamudde udakaṁ gaṇetuṁ— ettakāni udakāḷhakāni iti vā, ettakāni udakāḷhakasatāni iti vā, ettakāni udakāḷhakasahassāni iti vā, ettakāni udakāḷhakasatasahassāni iti vā”ti?

“No, ma’am. Why is that? Because the ocean is deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom.”

“No hetaṁ, ayye”. “Taṁ kissa hetu”? “Mahāyye, samuddo gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho”ti.

“In the same way, Great King, any form by which a realized one might be described has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future. A realized one is freed from reckoning in terms of form. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom, like the ocean. To say that after death, a realized one still exists, or no longer exists, or both still exists and no longer exists, or neither still exists nor no longer exists: none of these apply.

“Evameva kho, mahārāja, yena rūpena tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya taṁ rūpaṁ tathāgatassa pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammaṁ. Rūpasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho— seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo. ‘Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti.

Any feeling … perception … choices … consciousness by which a realized one might be described has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future. A realized one is freed from reckoning in terms of consciousness. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom, like the ocean. To say that after death, a realized one still exists, or no longer exists, or both still exists and no longer exists, or neither still exists nor no longer exists: none of these apply.”

Yāya vedanāya tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya, sā vedanā tathāgatassa pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṁ anuppādadhammā. Vedanāsaṅkhāyavimutto, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho— seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo. ‘Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti. Yāya saññāya tathāgataṁ …pe… yehi saṅkhārehi tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya, te saṅkhārā tathāgatassa pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṁ anuppādadhammā. Saṅkhārasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho— seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo. ‘Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti. Yena viññāṇena tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya taṁ viññāṇaṁ tathāgatassa pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammaṁ. Viññāṇasaṅkhāyavimutto kho, mahārāja, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāho— seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo. ‘Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipi na upetī”ti.

Then King Pasenadi approved and agreed with what the nun Khemā said. Then he rose from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled her, keeping her on his right, before leaving.

Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo khemāya bhikkhuniyā bhāsitaṁ abhinanditvā anumoditvā uṭṭhāyāsanā khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ abhivādetvā padakkhiṇaṁ katvā pakkāmi.

Then on a later occasion King Pasenadi of Kosala went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. He asked the Buddha exactly the same questions he had asked the nun Khemā, and received the same answers.

Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo aparena samayena yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho rājā pasenadi kosalo bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: “kiṁ nu kho, bhante, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti? “Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, mayā: ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti. “Kiṁ pana, bhante, na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti? “Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ mayā: ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti. “Kiṁ nu kho, bhante, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti? “Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, mayā: ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti. “Kiṁ pana, bhante, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti? “Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ mayā: ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti. “‘Kiṁ nu kho, bhante, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭho samāno: ‘abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, mahārāja, mayā—hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi …pe…. “‘Kiṁ pana, bhante, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭho samāno: ‘etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṁ mayā— neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi. Ko nu kho, bhante, hetu, ko paccayo, yenetaṁ abyākataṁ bhagavatā”ti?

He said, “It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing! How the meaning and the phrasing of the Teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter! This one time I went to the nun Khemā and asked her about this matter. And she explained it to me with these words and phrases, just like the Buddha. It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing! How the meaning and the phrasing of the Teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter!

“Acchariyaṁ, bhante, abbhutaṁ, bhante. Yatra hi nāma satthu ceva sāvikāya ca atthena attho byañjanena byañjanaṁ saṁsandissati, samessati, na virodhayissati yadidaṁ aggapadasmiṁ. Ekamidāhaṁ, bhante, samayaṁ khemaṁ bhikkhuniṁ upasaṅkamitvā etamatthaṁ apucchiṁ. Sāpi me ayyā etehi padehi etehi byañjanehi etamatthaṁ byākāsi, seyyathāpi bhagavā. Acchariyaṁ, bhante, abbhutaṁ, bhante. Yatra hi nāma satthu ceva sāvikāya ca atthena attho byañjanena byañjanaṁ saṁsandissati, samessati, na virodhayissati yadidaṁ aggapadasmiṁ.

Well, now, sir, I must go. I have many duties, and much to do.”

Handa dāni mayaṁ, bhante, gacchāma. Bahukiccā mayaṁ bahukaraṇīyā”ti.

“Please, Great King, go at your convenience.”

“Yassadāni tvaṁ, mahārāja, kālaṁ maññasī”ti.

Then King Pasenadi approved and agreed with what the Buddha said. Then he rose from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled him, keeping him on his right, before leaving.

Atha kho rājā pasenadi kosalo bhagavato bhāsitaṁ abhinanditvā anumoditvā uṭṭhāyāsanā bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā padakkhiṇaṁ katvā pakkāmīti.

SN 44.2 · With Anurādha

SN 44.2 · Anurādhasutta

At one time the Buddha was staying near Vesālī, at the Great Wood, in the hall with the peaked roof.

Ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā vesāliyaṁ viharati mahāvane kūṭāgārasālāyaṁ.

Now at that time Venerable Anurādha was staying not far from the Buddha in a wilderness hut. Then several wanderers of other religions went up to Venerable Anurādha and exchanged greetings with him.

Tena kho pana samayena āyasmā anurādho bhagavato avidūre araññakuṭikāyaṁ viharati. Atha kho sambahulā aññatitthiyā paribbājakā yenāyasmā anurādho tenupasaṅkamiṁsu; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmatā anurādhena saddhiṁ sammodiṁsu.

When the greetings and polite conversation were over, they sat down to one side and said to him:

Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu. Ekamantaṁ nisinnā kho te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā āyasmantaṁ anurādhaṁ etadavocuṁ:

“Reverend Anurādha, when a realized one is describing a realized one—a supreme person, highest of people, who has reached the highest point—they describe them in these four ways: After death, a realized one still exists, or no longer exists, or both still exists and no longer exists, or neither still exists nor no longer exists.”

“yo so, āvuso anurādha, tathāgato uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto, taṁ tathāgato imesu catūsu ṭhānesu paññāpayamāno paññāpeti: ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā”ti?

“Reverends, when a realized one is describing a realized one—a supreme person, highest of people, who has reached the highest point—they describe them other than these four ways: After death, a realized one still exists, or no longer exists, or both still exists and no longer exists, or neither still exists nor no longer exists.”

“Yo so, āvuso, tathāgato uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto, taṁ tathāgato aññatra imehi catūhi ṭhānehi paññāpayamāno paññāpeti: ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti vā”ti.

When he said this, the wanderers said to him, “This mendicant must be junior, recently gone forth, or else a foolish, incompetent senior mendicant.” Then, after rebuking Venerable Anurādha by calling him “junior” and “foolish”, the wanderers rose from their seats and left.

Evaṁ vutte, te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā āyasmantaṁ anurādhaṁ etadavocuṁ: “so cāyaṁ bhikkhu navo bhavissati acirapabbajito, thero vā pana bālo abyatto”ti. Atha kho te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā āyasmantaṁ anurādhaṁ navavādena ca bālavādena ca apasādetvā uṭṭhāyāsanā pakkamiṁsu.

Soon after they had left, Anurādha thought, “If those wanderers were to inquire further, how should I answer them so as to repeat what the Buddha has said, and not misrepresent him with an untruth? How should I explain in line with his teaching, so that there would be no legitimate grounds for rebuttal and criticism?”

Atha kho āyasmato anurādhassa acirapakkantesu aññatitthiyesu paribbājakesu etadahosi: “sace kho maṁ te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā uttariṁ puccheyyuṁ, kathaṁ byākaramāno nu khvāhaṁ tesaṁ aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ vuttavādī ceva bhagavato assaṁ, na ca bhagavantaṁ abhūtena abbhācikkheyyaṁ, dhammassa cānudhammaṁ byākareyyaṁ, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānuvādo gārayhaṁ ṭhānaṁ āgaccheyyā”ti?

Then Venerable Anurādha went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and told him what had happened.

Atha kho āyasmā anurādho yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho āyasmā anurādho bhagavantaṁ etadavoca: “idhāhaṁ, bhante, bhagavato avidūre araññakuṭikāyaṁ viharāmi. Atha kho, bhante, sambahulā aññatitthiyā paribbājakā yenāhaṁ tenupasaṅkamiṁsu; upasaṅkamitvā mayā saddhiṁ sammodiṁsu. Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁsu. Ekamantaṁ nisinnā kho, bhante, te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā maṁ etadavocuṁ: ‘yo so, āvuso anurādha, tathāgato uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto, taṁ tathāgato imesu catūsu ṭhānesu paññāpayamāno paññāpeti: “hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti vā …pe… “neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti vā’ti? Evaṁ vuttāhaṁ, bhante, te aññatitthiye paribbājake etadavocaṁ: ‘yo so, āvuso, tathāgato uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto, taṁ tathāgato aññatra imehi catūhi ṭhānehi paññāpayamāno paññāpeti: “hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti vā …pe… “neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti vā’ti. Evaṁ vutte, bhante, te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā maṁ etadavocuṁ: ‘so cāyaṁ bhikkhu navo bhavissati acirapabbajito thero vā pana bālo abyatto’ti. Atha kho maṁ, bhante, te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā navavādena ca bālavādena ca apasādetvā uṭṭhāyāsanā pakkamiṁsu. Tassa mayhaṁ, bhante, acirapakkantesu tesu aññatitthiyesu paribbājakesu etadahosi: ‘sace kho maṁ te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā uttariṁ puccheyyuṁ, kathaṁ byākaramāno nu khvāhaṁ tesaṁ aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ vuttavādī ceva bhagavato assaṁ, na ca bhagavantaṁ abhūtena abbhācikkheyyaṁ, dhammassa cānudhammaṁ byākareyyaṁ, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānuvādo gārayhaṁ ṭhānaṁ āgaccheyyā’”ti?

“What do you think, Anurādha? Is form permanent or impermanent?”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, anurādha, rūpaṁ niccaṁ vā aniccaṁ vā”ti?

“Impermanent, sir.”

“Aniccaṁ, bhante”.

“But if it’s impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?”

“Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vā taṁ sukhaṁ vā”ti?

“Suffering, sir.”

“Dukkhaṁ, bhante”.

“But if it’s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, is it fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?”

“Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vipariṇāmadhammaṁ, kallaṁ nu taṁ samanupassituṁ: ‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“Is feeling … perception … choices … consciousness permanent or impermanent?”

“Vedanā niccā vā aniccā vā”ti? …pe… Saññā …pe… saṅkhārā …pe… “viññāṇaṁ niccaṁ vā aniccaṁ vā”ti?

“Impermanent, sir.”

“Aniccaṁ, bhante”.

“But if it’s impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?”

“Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vā taṁ sukhaṁ vā”ti?

“Suffering, sir.”

“Dukkhaṁ, bhante”.

“But if it’s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, is it fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?”

“Yaṁ panāniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vipariṇāmadhammaṁ, kallaṁ nu taṁ samanupassituṁ: ‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“So, Anurādha, you should truly see any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: <em>all</em> form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ Any kind of feeling … perception … choices … consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: <em>all</em> consciousness—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’

“Tasmātiha, anurādha, yaṁ kiñci rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, sabbaṁ rūpaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṁ. Yā kāci vedanā atītānāgatapaccuppannā …pe… yā kāci saññā …pe… ye keci saṅkhārā …pe… yaṁ kiñci viññāṇaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, sabbaṁ viññāṇaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṁ.

Seeing this, a learned noble disciple grows disillusioned with form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness. Being disillusioned, desire fades away. When desire fades away they’re freed. When they’re freed, they know they’re freed.

Evaṁ passaṁ, anurādha, sutavā ariyasāvako rūpasmimpi nibbindati, vedanāyapi nibbindati, saññāyapi nibbindati, saṅkhāresupi nibbindati, viññāṇasmimpi nibbindati. Nibbindaṁ virajjati; virāgā vimuccati; vimuttasmiṁ vimuttamiti ñāṇaṁ hoti.

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is nothing further for this place.’

‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṁ brahmacariyaṁ, kataṁ karaṇīyaṁ, nāparaṁ itthattāyā’ti pajānāti.

What do you think, Anurādha? Do you consider that the label ‘realized one’ applies to form?”

Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, anurādha, rūpaṁ tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“Do you consider that the label ‘realized one’ applies to feeling?” … “… perception?” … “… choices?” … “… consciousness?”

“Vedanaṁ tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti? “No hetaṁ, bhante”. “Saññaṁ tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti? “No hetaṁ, bhante”. “Saṅkhāre tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti? “No hetaṁ, bhante”. “Viññāṇaṁ tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“What do you think, Anurādha? Do you consider that the label ‘realized one’ applies in relation to form?”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, anurādha, rūpasmiṁ tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“Do you consider that the label ‘realized one’ applies apart from form?”

“Aññatra rūpā tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“Do you consider that the label ‘realized one’ applies in relation to feeling?” “… apart from feeling?” … “… in relation to perception?” … “… apart from perception?” … “… in relation to choices?” … “… apart from choices?” … “… in relation to consciousness?” … “… apart from consciousness?”

“Vedanāya …pe… aññatra vedanāya …pe… saññāya …pe… aññatra saññāya …pe… saṅkhāresu …pe… aññatra saṅkhārehi …pe… viññāṇasmiṁ tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti? “No hetaṁ, bhante”. “Aññatra viññāṇā tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“What do you think, Anurādha? Do you consider that the label ‘realized one’ applies to one who has form?” … “… feeling?” … “… perception?” … “… choices?” … “… consciousness?”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, anurādha, rūpaṁ, vedanaṁ, saññaṁ, saṅkhāre, viññāṇaṁ tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“What do you think, Anurādha? Do you consider that the label ‘realized one’ applies to that one who is without form?” … “… feeling?” … “… perception?” … “… choices?” … “… consciousness?”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, anurādha, ayaṁ so arūpī avedano asaññī asaṅkhāro aviññāṇo tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“In that case, Anurādha, since a realized one is not found by you as a genuine fact in this very life, is it cogent for you to declare: ‘Reverends, when a realized one is describing a realized one—a supreme person, highest of people, who has reached the highest point—they describe them other than these four ways: After death, a realized one still exists, or no longer exists, or both still exists and no longer exists, or neither still exists nor no longer exists’?”

“Ettha ca te, anurādha, diṭṭheva dhamme saccato thetato tathāgate anupalabbhiyamāne kallaṁ nu te taṁ veyyākaraṇaṁ— yo so, āvuso, tathāgato uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto, taṁ tathāgato aññatra imehi catūhi ṭhānehi paññāpayamāno paññāpeti: ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā …pe… ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vā”ti?

“No, sir.”

“No hetaṁ, bhante”.

“Good, good, Anurādha! In the past, as today, what I describe is suffering and the cessation of suffering.”

“Sādhu sādhu, anurādha. Pubbe cāhaṁ, anurādha, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi dukkhassa ca nirodhan”ti.

SN 44.3 · With Sāriputta and Koṭṭhita (1st)

SN 44.3 · Paṭhamasāriputtakoṭṭhikasutta

At one time Venerable Sāriputta and Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were staying near Varanasi in the deer park at Isipatana.

Ekaṁ samayaṁ āyasmā ca sāriputto, āyasmā ca mahākoṭṭhiko bārāṇasiyaṁ viharanti isipatane migadāye.

Then in the late afternoon, Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita came out of retreat, went to Venerable Sāriputta, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side, and said to Sāriputta:

Atha kho āyasmā mahākoṭṭhiko sāyanhasamayaṁ paṭisallānā vuṭṭhito yenāyasmā sāriputto tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmatā sāriputtena saddhiṁ sammodi. Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho āyasmā mahākoṭṭhiko āyasmantaṁ sāriputtaṁ etadavoca:

“Reverend Sāriputta, does a realized one still exist after death?”

“Kiṁ nu kho, āvuso sāriputta, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?

“Reverend, this has not been declared by the Buddha.”

“Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, āvuso, bhagavatā: ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Well then, does a realized one no longer exist after death? …

“Kiṁ panāvuso, na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti? “Etampi kho, āvuso, abyākataṁ bhagavatā: ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

Does a realized one both still exist and no longer exist after death? …

“Kiṁ nu kho, āvuso, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti? “Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, āvuso, bhagavatā: ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

Does a realized one neither still exist nor no longer exist after death?”

“Kiṁ panāvuso, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti?

“This too has not been declared by the Buddha.”

“Etampi kho, āvuso, abyākataṁ bhagavatā: ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

“Reverend, when asked these questions, you say that they have not been declared by the Buddha. What’s the cause, what’s the reason why they have not been declared by the Buddha?”

“‘Kiṁ nu kho, āvuso, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭho samāno, ‘abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, āvuso, bhagavatā— hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi …pe… ‘kiṁ panāvuso, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti iti puṭṭho samāno: ‘etampi kho, āvuso, abyākataṁ bhagavatā— neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’ti vadesi. Ko nu kho, āvuso, hetu, ko paccayo yenetaṁ abyākataṁ bhagavatā”ti?

“Reverend, ‘Does a realized one still exist after death?’ is included in form. ‘Does a realized one no longer exist after death?’ is included in form. ‘Does a realized one both still exist and no longer exist after death?’ is included in form. ‘Does a realized one neither still exist nor no longer exist after death?’ is included in form.

“Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti kho, āvuso, rūpagatametaṁ. Na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, rūpagatametaṁ. Hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, rūpagatametaṁ. Neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, rūpagatametaṁ.

‘Does a realized one still exist after death?’ is included in feeling … perception … choices … consciousness. ‘Does a realized one no longer exist after death?’ is included in consciousness. ‘Does a realized one both still exist and no longer exist after death?’ is included in consciousness. ‘Does a realized one neither still exist nor no longer exist after death?’ is included in consciousness.

Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti kho, āvuso, vedanāgatametaṁ. Na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, vedanāgatametaṁ. Hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, vedanāgatametaṁ. Neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, vedanāgatametaṁ. Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti kho, āvuso, saññāgatametaṁ. Na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, saññāgatametaṁ. Hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, saññāgatametaṁ. Neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, saññāgatametaṁ. Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti kho, āvuso, saṅkhāragatametaṁ. Na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, saṅkhāragatametaṁ. Hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, saṅkhāragatametaṁ. Neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, saṅkhāragatametaṁ. Hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti kho, āvuso, viññāṇagatametaṁ. Na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, viññāṇagatametaṁ. Hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, viññāṇagatametaṁ. Neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti, viññāṇagatametaṁ.

This is the cause, this is the reason why this has not been declared by the Buddha.”

Ayaṁ kho, āvuso, hetu ayaṁ paccayo, yenetaṁ abyākataṁ bhagavatā”ti.

SN 44.4 · With Sāriputta and Koṭṭhita (2nd)

SN 44.4 · Dutiyasāriputtakoṭṭhikasutta

At one time Venerable Sāriputta and Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were staying near Varanasi in the deer park at Isipatana. …

Ekaṁ samayaṁ āyasmā ca sāriputto, āyasmā ca mahākoṭṭhiko bārāṇasiyaṁ viharanti isipatane migadāye …pe…

(The same down as far as:)

(sāyeva pucchā.)

“What’s the cause, reverend, what’s the reason why this has not been declared by the Buddha?”

“Ko nu kho, āvuso, hetu, ko paccayo, yenetaṁ abyākataṁ bhagavatā”ti?

“Reverend, not truly knowing and seeing form, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation, one thinks ‘a realized one still exists after death’ or ‘a realized one no longer exists after death’ or ‘a realized one both still exists and no longer exists after death’ or ‘a realized one neither still exists nor no longer exists after death.’

“Rūpaṁ kho, āvuso, ajānato apassato yathābhūtaṁ, rūpasamudayaṁ ajānato apassato yathābhūtaṁ, rūpanirodhaṁ ajānato apassato yathābhūtaṁ, rūpanirodhagāminiṁ paṭipadaṁ ajānato apassato yathābhūtaṁ, ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa hoti; ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa hoti; ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa hoti; ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa hoti.

Not truly knowing or seeing feeling … perception … choices … consciousness, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation, one thinks ‘a realized one still exists after death’ or ‘a realized one no longer exists after death’ or ‘a realized one both still exists and no longer exists after death’ or ‘a realized one neither still exists nor no longer exists after death.’

Vedanaṁ …pe… saññaṁ …pe… saṅkhāre …pe… viññāṇaṁ ajānato apassato yathābhūtaṁ, viññāṇasamudayaṁ ajānato apassato yathābhūtaṁ, viññāṇanirodhaṁ ajānato apassato yathābhūtaṁ, viññāṇanirodhagāminiṁ paṭipadaṁ ajānato apassato yathābhūtaṁ, ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa hoti; ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa hoti; ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa hoti; ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”tipissa hoti.

Truly knowing and seeing form … feeling … perception … choices … consciousness, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation, one doesn’t think ‘a realized one still exists after death’ or ‘a realized one no longer exists after death’ or ‘a realized one both still exists and no longer exists after death’ or ‘a realized one neither still exists nor no longer exists after death.’

Rūpañca kho, āvuso, jānato passato yathābhūtaṁ, rūpasamudayaṁ jānato passato yathābhūtaṁ, rūpanirodhaṁ jānato passato yathābhūtaṁ, rūpanirodhagāminiṁ paṭipadaṁ jānato passato yathābhūtaṁ, ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti …pe… ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti. Vedanaṁ …pe… saññaṁ …pe… saṅkhāre …pe… viññāṇaṁ jānato passato yathābhūtaṁ, viññāṇasamudayaṁ jānato passato yathābhūtaṁ, viññāṇanirodhaṁ jānato passato yathābhūtaṁ, viññāṇanirodhagāminiṁ paṭipadaṁ jānato passato yathābhūtaṁ, ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti; ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti; ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti; ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti.

This is the cause, this is the reason why this has not been declared by the Buddha.”

Ayaṁ kho, āvuso, hetu ayaṁ paccayo, yenetaṁ abyākataṁ bhagavatā”ti.

SN 44.5 · With Sāriputta and Koṭṭhita (3rd)

SN 44.5 · Tatiyasāriputtakoṭṭhikasutta

At one time Venerable Sāriputta and Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were staying near Varanasi in the deer park at Isipatana. …

Ekaṁ samayaṁ āyasmā ca sāriputto, āyasmā ca mahākoṭṭhiko bārāṇasiyaṁ viharanti isipatane migadāye …pe…

(The same down as far as:)

(sāyeva pucchā.)

“What’s the cause, reverend, what’s the reason why this has not been declared by the Buddha?”

“Ko nu kho, āvuso, hetu ko paccayo, yenetaṁ abyākataṁ bhagavatā”ti?

“Reverend, if you’re not rid of greed, desire, fondness, thirst, passion, and craving for form … feeling … perception … choices … consciousness, you think ‘a realized one still exists after death’ … ‘a realized one neither still exists nor no longer exists after death.’

“Rūpe kho, āvuso, avigatarāgassa avigatacchandassa avigatapemassa avigatapipāsassa avigatapariḷāhassa avigatataṇhassa ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa hoti …pe… ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa hoti. Vedanāya …pe… saññāya …pe… saṅkhāresu …pe… viññāṇe avigatarāgassa avigatacchandassa avigatapemassa avigatapipāsassa avigatapariḷāhassa avigatataṇhassa ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa hoti …pe… ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa hoti.

If you are rid of greed for form … feeling … perception … choices … consciousness, you don’t think ‘a realized one still exists after death’ … ‘a realized one neither still exists nor no longer exists after death.’

Rūpe ca kho, āvuso, vigatarāgassa …pe… vedanāya …pe… saññāya …pe… saṅkhāresu …pe… viññāṇe vigatarāgassa vigatacchandassa vigatapemassa vigatapipāsassa vigatapariḷāhassa vigatataṇhassa ‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti …pe… ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti.

This is the cause, this is the reason why this has not been declared by the Buddha.”

Ayaṁ kho, āvuso, hetu, ayaṁ paccayo, yenetaṁ abyākataṁ bhagavatā”ti.