--- title: "Alcibiades I · Ἀλκιβιάδης αʹ" author: "Plato" translator: "Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb" languages: [grc, en] shelf: "Philosophy" url: https://scriptura.si/works/plato-alcibiades-i/ cite: "Plato, tr. Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb, Alcibiades I · Ἀλκιβιάδης αʹ. Scriptura (scriptura.si), https://scriptura.si/works/plato-alcibiades-i/" --- # Alcibiades I · Ἀλκιβιάδης αʹ *Plato, tr. Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb* Socrates tells the ambitious young Alcibiades that before he rules others he must know himself. > Greek: ed. John Burnet, from the Perseus Digital Library (canonical-greekLit, tlg0059.tlg013, CC BY-SA 4.0). > English: Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb, from the Perseus Digital Library (tlg0059.tlg013.perseus-eng2). Notes are not included. > Rows follow the references the two texts share (Stephanus sections), cut where both reach the end of a sentence. ## Contents 1. [103a–114b](https://scriptura.si/works/plato-alcibiades-i/1.md) 2. [114c–125b](https://scriptura.si/works/plato-alcibiades-i/2.md) 3. [125c–135e](https://scriptura.si/works/plato-alcibiades-i/3.md) ## 1. 103a–114b Source: https://scriptura.si/works/plato-alcibiades-i/1/ · cite a paragraph as https://scriptura.si/works/plato-alcibiades-i/1/#p-N [¶0] 103a. Soc. Son of Cleinias, I think it must surprise you that I, the first of all your lovers, am the only one of them who has not given up his suit and thrown you over, and whereas they have all pestered you with their conversation I have not spoken one word to you for so many years. The cause of this has been nothing human, but a certain spiritual opposition, of whose power you shall be informed at some later time. However, it now opposes me no longer, so I have accordingly come to you; and I am in good hopes that it will not oppose me again in the future. > Greek: 103a. ΣΩ. ὦ παῖ Κλεινίου, οἶμαί σε θαυμάζειν ὅτι πρῶτος ἐραστής σου γενόμενος τῶν ἄλλων πεπαυμένων μόνος οὐκ ἀπαλλάττομαι, καὶ ὅτι οἱ μὲν ἄλλοι διʼ ὄχλου ἐγένοντό σοι διαλεγόμενοι, ἐγὼ δὲ τοσούτων ἐτῶν οὐδὲ προσεῖπον. τούτου δὲ τὸ αἴτιον γέγονεν οὐκ ἀνθρώπειον, ἀλλά τι δαιμόνιον ἐναντίωμα, οὗ σὺ τὴν δύναμιν καὶ ὕστερον πεύσῃ. νῦν δὲ ἐπειδὴ οὐκέτι ἐναντιοῦται, οὕτω προσελήλυθα· [¶1] 103b. Now I have been observing you all this time, and have formed a pretty good notion of your behavior to your lovers: for although they were many and high-spirited, everyone of them has found your spirit too strong for him and has run away. > Greek: 103b. εὔελπις δʼ εἰμὶ καὶ τὸ λοιπὸν μὴ ἐναντιώσεσθαι αὐτό. σχεδὸν οὖν κατανενόηκα ἐν τούτῳ τῷ χρόνῳ σκοπούμενος ὡς πρὸς τοὺς ἐραστὰς ἔσχες· πολλῶν γὰρ γενομένων καὶ μεγαλοφρόνων οὐδεὶς ὃς οὐχ ὑπερβληθεὶς τῷ φρονήματι ὑπὸ σοῦ πέφευγεν. [¶2] 104a. Soc. Let me explain the reason of your spirit being too much for them. You say you have no need of any man in any matter; for your resources are so great, beginning with the body and ending with the soul, that you lack nothing. You think, in the first place, that you are foremost in beauty and stature—and you are not mistaken in this, as is plain for all to see—and in the second place, that you are of the most gallant family in your city, the greatest city in Greece, and that there you have, through your father, very many of the best people as your friends and kinsmen, who would assist you in case of need, and other connections also, through your mother, who are not a whit inferior to these, nor fewer. > Greek: 104a. ΣΩ. τὸν δὲ λόγον, ᾧ ὑπερπεφρόνηκας, ἐθέλω διελθεῖν. οὐδενὸς φῂς ἀνθρώπων ἐνδεὴς εἶναι εἰς οὐδέν· τὰ γὰρ ὑπάρχοντά σοι μεγάλα εἶναι, ὥστε μηδενὸς δεῖσθαι, ἀπὸ τοῦ σώματος ἀρξάμενα τελευτῶντα εἰς τὴν ψυχήν. οἴει γὰρ δὴ εἶναι πρῶτον μὲν κάλλιστός τε καὶ μέγιστος—καὶ τοῦτο μὲν δὴ παντὶ δῆλον ἰδεῖν ὅτι οὐ ψεύδῃ—ἔπειτα νεανικωτάτου γένους ἐν τῇ σεαυτοῦ ἐνταῦθα πρὸς πατρός τέ σοι φίλους καὶ συγγενεῖς πλείστους εἶναι καὶ ἀρίστους, οἳ εἴ τι δέοι ὑπηρετοῖεν ἄν σοι, τούτων δὲ τοὺς πρὸς μητρὸς οὐδὲν χείρους οὐδʼ ἐλάττους. [¶3] 104b. And you reckon upon a stronger power than all those that I have mentioned, in Pericles, son of Xanthippus, whom your father left as guardian of you and your brother when he died, and who is able to do whatever he likes not only in this city but all over Greece and among many great nations of the barbarians. > Greek: 104b. συμπάντων δὲ ὧν εἶπον μείζω οἴει σοι δύναμιν ὑπάρχειν Περικλέα τὸν Ξανθίππου, ὃν ὁ πατὴρ ἐπίτροπον κατέλιπε σοί τε καὶ τῷ ἀδελφῷ· ὃς οὐ μόνον ἐν τῇδε τῇ πόλει δύναται πράττειν ὅτι ἂν βούληται, ἀλλʼ ἐν πάσῃ τῇ Ἑλλάδι καὶ τῶν βαρβάρων ἐν πολλοῖς καὶ μεγάλοις γένεσιν. προσθήσω δὲ καὶ ὅτι τῶν πλουσίων· [¶4] 104c. And I will add besides the wealth of your house: but on this, I observe, you presume least of all. Well, you puff yourself up on all these advantages, and have overcome your lovers, while they in their inferiority have yielded to your might, and all this has not escaped you; so I am very sure that you wonder what on earth I mean by not getting rid of my passion, and what can be my hope in remaining when the rest have fled. > Greek: 104c. δοκεῖς δέ μοι ἐπὶ τούτῳ ἥκιστα μέγα φρονεῖν. κατὰ πάντα δὴ ταῦτα σύ τε μεγαλαυχούμενος κεκράτηκας τῶν ἐραστῶν ἐκεῖνοί τε ὑποδεέστεροι ὄντες ἐκρατήθησαν, καί σε ταῦτʼ οὐ λέληθεν· ὅθεν δὴ εὖ οἶδα ὅτι θαυμάζεις τί διανοούμενός ποτε οὐκ ἀπαλλάττομαι τοῦ ἔρωτος, καὶ ἥντινʼ ἔχων ἐλπίδα ὑπομένω τῶν ἄλλων πεφευγότων. [¶5] Alc. Perhaps also, Socrates, you are not aware that you have only just anticipated me. > Greek: ΑΛ. καὶ ἴσως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐκ οἶσθʼ ὅτι σμικρόν με ἔφθης. [¶6] 104d. For I, in fact, had the intention of coming and asking you first that very same question—what is your aim and expectation in bothering me by making a particular point of always turning up wherever I may be. For I really do wonder what can be your object, and should be very glad if you would tell me. > Greek: 104d. ἐγὼ γάρ τοι ἐν νῷ εἶχον πρότερός σοι προσελθὼν αὐτὰ ταῦτʼ ἐρέσθαι, τί ποτε βούλει καὶ εἰς τίνα ἐλπίδα βλέπων ἐνοχλεῖς με, ἀεὶ ὅπου ἂν ὦ ἐπιμελέστατα παρών· τῷ ὄντι γὰρ θαυμάζω ὅτι ποτʼ ἐστὶ τὸ σὸν πρᾶγμα, καὶ ἥδιστʼ ἂν πυθοίμην. [¶7] Soc. Then you will listen to me, presumably, with keen attention if, as you say, you long to know what I mean, and I have in you a listener who will stay to hear me out. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀκούσῃ μὲν ἄρα μου, ὡς τὸ εἰκός, προθύμως, εἴπερ, ὡς φῄς, ἐπιθυμεῖς εἰδέναι τί διανοοῦμαι, καὶ ὡς ἀκουσομένῳ καὶ περιμενοῦντι λέγω. [¶8] Alc. Why, to be sure: only speak. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν· ἀλλὰ λέγε. [¶9] 104e. Soc. Look to it, then; for it would be no wonder if I should make as much difficulty about stopping as I have made about starting. > Greek: 104e. ΣΩ. ὅρα δή· οὐ γάρ τοι εἴη ἂν θαυμαστὸν εἰ, ὥσπερ μόγις ἠρξάμην, οὕτω μόγις καὶ παυσαίμην. [¶10] Alc. My good sir, speak; for I will listen. > Greek: ΑΛ. ὠγαθὲ λέγε· ἀκούσομαι γάρ. [¶11] 105. Soc. Speak I must, I suppose. Now, although it is hard for a lover to parley with a man who does not yield to lovers, I must make bold nevertheless to put my meaning into words. For if I saw you, Alcibiades, content with the things I set forth just now, and minded to pass your life in enjoying them, I should long ago have put away my love, so at least I persuade myself: but as it is, I shall propound to your face quite another set of your thoughts, whereby you will understand that I have had you continually before my mind. > Greek: 105. ΣΩ. λεκτέον ἂν εἴη. χαλεπὸν μὲν οὖν πρὸς ἄνδρα οὐχ ἥττονα ἐραστῶν προσφέρεσθαι ἐραστῇ, ὅμως δὲ τολμητέον φράσαι τὴν ἐμὴν διάνοιαν. ἐγὼ γάρ, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, εἰ μέν σε ἑώρων ἃ νυνδὴ διῆλθον ἀγαπῶντα καὶ οἰόμενον δεῖν ἐν τούτοις καταβιῶναι, πάλαι ἂν ἀπηλλάγμην τοῦ ἔρωτος, ὥς γε δὴ ἐμαυτὸν πείθω· [¶12] 105a. For I believe, if some god should ask you: “Alcibiades, do you prefer to live with your present possessions, or to die immediately if you are not to have the chance of acquiring greater things?” I believe you would choose to die. But let me tell you what I imagine must be the present hope of your life. You think that if you come shortly before the Athenian Assembly—which you expect to occur in a very few days—you will stand forth and prove to the people that you are more worthy of honor than either Pericles or anyone else who has ever existed, and that having proved this you will have the greatest power in the state; and that if you are the greatest here, you will be the same among all the other Greeks, and not only Greeks, but all the barbarians who inhabit the same continent with us. > Greek: 105a. νῦν δʼ ἕτερʼ αὖ κατηγορήσω διανοήματα σὰ πρὸς αὐτὸν σέ, ᾧ καὶ γνώσῃ ὅτι προσέχων γέ σοι τὸν νοῦν διατετέλεκα. δοκεῖς γάρ μοι, εἴ τίς σοι εἴποι θεῶν· ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, πότερον βούλει ζῆν ἔχων ἃ νῦν ἔχεις, ἢ αὐτίκα τεθνάναι εἰ μή σοι ἐξέσται μείζω κτήσασθαι; δοκεῖς ἄν μοι ἑλέσθαι τεθνάναι· ἀλλὰ νῦν ἐπὶ τίνι δή ποτε ἐλπίδι ζῇς, ἐγὼ φράσω. ἡγῇ, ἐὰν θᾶττον εἰς τὸν Ἀθηναίων δῆμον παρέλθῃς—τοῦτο δʼ ἔσεσθαι μάλα ὀλίγων ἡμερῶν— παρελθὼν οὖν ἐνδείξεσθαι Ἀθηναίοις ὅτι ἄξιος εἶ τιμᾶσθαι ὡς οὔτε Περικλῆς οὔτʼ ἄλλος οὐδεὶς τῶν πώποτε γενομένων, καὶ τοῦτʼ ἐνδειξάμενος μέγιστον δυνήσεσθαι ἐν τῇ πόλει, ἐὰν δʼ ἐνθάδε μέγιστος ᾖς, καὶ ἐν τοῖς ἄλλοις Ἕλλησι, καὶ οὐ μόνον ἐν Ἕλλησιν, ἀλλὰ καὶ ἐν τοῖς βαρβάροις, ὅσοι ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ ἡμῖν οἰκοῦσιν ἠπείρῳ. [¶13] 105b. And if that same god should say to you again, that you are to hold sway here in Europe, but are not to be allowed to cross over into Asia and to interfere with the affairs of that region, I believe you would be equally loth to live on those sole conditions either—if you are not to fill, one may say, the whole world with your name and your power; and I fancy that, except Cyrus and Xerxes, you think there has never existed a single man who was of any account. > Greek: 105b. καὶ εἰ αὖ σοι εἴποι ὁ αὐτὸς οὗτος θεὸς ὅτι αὐτοῦ σε δεῖ δυναστεύειν ἐν τῇ Εὐρώπῃ, διαβῆναι δὲ εἰς τὴν Ἀσίαν οὐκ ἐξέσται σοι οὐδὲ ἐπιθέσθαι τοῖς ἐκεῖ πράγμασιν, οὐκ ἂν αὖ μοι δοκεῖς ἐθέλειν οὐδʼ ἐπὶ τούτοις μόνοις ζῆν, εἰ μὴ ἐμπλήσεις τοῦ σοῦ ὀνόματος καὶ τῆς σῆς δυνάμεως πάντας ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν ἀνθρώπους· [¶14] 105c. So then that this is your hope, I know well enough; I am not merely guessing. And I daresay you will reply, since you know that what I say is true: “Well, Socrates, and what has that to do with your point?” > Greek: 105c. καὶ οἶμαί σε πλὴν Κύρου καὶ Ξέρξου ἡγεῖσθαι οὐδένα ἄξιον λόγου γεγονέναι. ὅτι μὲν οὖν ἔχεις ταύτην τὴν ἐλπίδα, εὖ οἶδα καὶ οὐκ εἰκάζω. ἴσως ἂν οὖν εἴποις, ἅτε εἰδὼς ὅτι ἀληθῆ λέγω, τί δὴ οὖν, ὦ Σώκρατες, τοῦτʼ ἐστί σοι πρὸς >λόγον; [¶15] 105d. I am going to tell you, dear son of Cleinias and Deinomache. Without me it is impossible for all those designs of yours to be crowned with achievement; so great is the power I conceive myself to have over your affairs and over you, and it is for this very reason, I believe, that the god has so long prevented me from talking with you, and I was waiting to see when he would allow me. For as you have hopes of proving yourself in public to be invaluable to the state and, having proved it, of winning forthwith unlimited power, so do I hope to win supreme power over you by proving that I am invaluable to you, and that neither guardian nor kinsman nor anyone else is competent to transmit to you the power that you long for except me, with the god’s help, however. > Greek: 105d. [ὃν ἔφησθα ἐρεῖν, διὸ ἐμοῦ οὐκ ἀπαλλάττῃ;] ἐγὼ δὲ σοί γε ἐρῶ, ὦ φίλε παῖ Κλεινίου καὶ Δεινομάχης. τούτων γάρ σοι ἁπάντων τῶν διανοημάτων τέλος ἐπιτεθῆναι ἄνευ ἐμοῦ ἀδύνατον· τοσαύτην ἐγὼ δύναμιν οἶμαι ἔχειν εἰς τὰ σὰ πράγματα καὶ εἰς σέ, διὸ δὴ καὶ πάλαι οἴομαί με τὸν θεὸν οὐκ ἐᾶν διαλέγεσθαί σοι, ὃν ἐγὼ περιέμενον ὁπηνίκα ἐάσει. ὥσπερ γὰρ σὺ ἐλπίδας ἔχεις ἐν τῇ πόλει ἐνδείξασθαι ὅτι αὐτῇ παντὸς ἄξιος εἶ, ἐνδειξάμενος δὲ [ὅτι] οὐδὲν ὅτι οὐ παραυτίκα δυνήσεσθαι, οὕτω κἀγὼ παρὰ σοὶ ἐλπίζω μέγιστον δυνήσεσθαι ἐνδειξάμενος ὅτι παντὸς ἄξιός εἰμί σοι καὶ οὔτε ἐπίτροπος οὔτε συγγενὴς οὔτʼ ἄλλος οὐδεὶς ἱκανὸς παραδοῦναι τὴν δύναμιν ἧς ἐπιθυμεῖς πλὴν ἐμοῦ, μετὰ τοῦ θεοῦ μέντοι. [¶16] 105e. In your younger days, to be sure, before you had built such high hopes, the god, as I believe, prevented me from talking with you, in order that I might not waste my words: but now he has set me on; > Greek: 105e. νεωτέρῳ μὲν οὖν ὄντι σοι καὶ πρὶν τοσαύτης ἐλπίδος γέμειν, ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ, οὐκ εἴα ὁ θεὸς διαλέγεσθαι, ἵνα μὴ μάτην διαλεγοίμην. [¶17] 106a. for now you will listen to me. > Greek: 106a. νῦν δʼ ἐφῆκεν· νῦν γὰρ ἄν μου ἀκούσαις. [¶18] 106. Alc. You seem to me far more extraordinary, Socrates, now that you have begun to speak, than before, when you followed me about in silence; though even then you looked strange enough. Well, as to my intending all this or not, you have apparently made your decision, and any denial of mine will not avail me to persuade you. Very good: but supposing I have intended ever so much what you say, how are you the sole means through which I can hope to attain it? Can you tell me? > Greek: 106. ΑΛ. πολύ γέ μοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, νῦν ἀτοπώτερος αὖ φαίνῃ, ἐπειδὴ ἤρξω λέγειν, ἢ ὅτε σιγῶν εἵπου· καίτοι σφόδρα γε ἦσθʼ ἰδεῖν καὶ τότε τοιοῦτος. εἰ μὲν οὖν ἐγὼ ταῦτα διανοοῦμαι ἢ μή, ὡς ἔοικε, διέγνωκας, καὶ ἐὰν μὴ φῶ, οὐδέν μοι ἔσται πλέον πρὸς τὸ πείθειν σε. εἶεν· εἰ δὲ δὴ ὅτι μάλιστα ταῦτα διανενόημαι, πῶς διὰ σοῦ μοι ἔσται καὶ ἄνευ σοῦ οὐκ ἂν γένοιτο; ἔχεις λέγειν; [¶19] 106b. Soc. Are you asking whether I can make a long speech, such as you are used to hearing? No, my gift is not of that sort. But I fancy I could prove to you that the case is so, if you will consent to do me just one little service. > Greek: 106b. ΣΩ. ἆρʼ ἐρωτᾷς εἴ τινʼ ἔχω εἰπεῖν λόγον μακρόν, οἵους δὴ ἀκούειν εἴθισαι; οὐ γάρ ἐστι τοιοῦτον τὸ ἐμόν· ἀλλʼ ἐνδείξασθαι μέν σοι, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι, οἷός τʼ ἂν εἴην ὅτι ταῦτα οὕτως ἔχει, ἐὰν ἓν μόνον μοι ἐθελήσῃς βραχὺ ὑπηρετῆσαι. [¶20] Alc. Why, if you mean a service that is not troublesome, I consent. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλʼ εἴ γε δὴ μὴ χαλεπόν τι λέγεις τὸ ὑπηρέτημα, ἐθέλω. [¶21] Soc. Do you consider it troublesome to answer questions put to you? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἦ χαλεπὸν δοκεῖ τὸ ἀποκρίνασθαι τὰ ἐρωτώμενα; [¶22] Alc. No, I do not. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ χαλεπόν. [¶23] Soc. Then answer. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀποκρίνου δή. [¶24] Alc. Ask. > Greek: ΑΛ. Ἐρώτα. [¶25] Soc. Well, you have the intentions which I say you have, I suppose? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ὡς διανοουμένου σου ταῦτα ἐρωτῶ, ἅ φημί σε διανοεῖσθαι; [¶26] 106c. Alc. Be it so, if you like, in order that I may know what you will say next. > Greek: 106c. ΑΛ. ἔστω, εἰ βούλει, οὕτως, ἵνα καὶ εἰδῶ ὅτι καὶ ἐρεῖς. [¶27] Soc. Now then: you intend, as I say, to come forward as adviser to the Athenians in no great space of time; well, suppose I were to take hold of you as you were about to ascend the platform, and were to ask you: “Alcibiades, on what subject do the Athenians propose to take advice, that you should stand up to advise them? Is it something about which you have better knowledge than they?” What would be your reply? > Greek: ΣΩ. φέρε δή· διανοῇ γάρ, ὡς ἐγώ φημι, παριέναι συμβουλεύσων Ἀθηναίοις ἐντὸς οὐ πολλοῦ χρόνου· εἰ οὖν μέλλοντός σου ἰέναι ἐπὶ τὸ βῆμα λαβόμενος ἐροίμην· ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, ἐπειδὴ περὶ τίνος Ἀθηναῖοι διανοοῦνται βουλεύεσθαι, ἀνίστασαι συμβουλεύσων; ἆρʼ ἐπειδὴ περὶ ὧν σὺ ἐπίστασαι βέλτιον ἢ οὗτοι; τί ἂν ἀποκρίναιο; [¶28] 106d. Alc. I should say, I suppose, it was something about which I knew better than they. > Greek: 106d. ΑΛ. εἴποιμʼ ἂν δήπου, περὶ ὧν οἶδα βέλτιον ἢ οὗτοι. [¶29] Soc. Then you are a good adviser on things about which you actually know. > Greek: ΣΩ. περὶ ὧν ἄρʼ εἰδὼς τυγχάνεις, ἀγαθὸς σύμβουλος εἶ. [¶30] Alc. To be sure. > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; [¶31] Soc. And you know only the things you have learnt from others or discovered yourself? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ταῦτα μόνον οἶσθα, ἃ παρʼ ἄλλων ἔμαθες ἢ αὐτὸς ἐξηῦρες; [¶32] Alc. What could I know besides? > Greek: ΑΛ. ποῖα γὰρ ἄλλα; [¶33] Soc. And can it be that you would ever have learnt or discovered anything without being willing either to learn it or to inquire into it yourself? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔστιν οὖν ὅπως ἄν ποτε ἔμαθές τι ἢ ἐξηῦρες μήτε μανθάνειν ἐθέλων μήτʼ αὐτὸς ζητεῖν; [¶34] Alc. No. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐκ ἔστιν. [¶35] Soc. Well then, would you have been willing to inquire into or learn what you thought you knew? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δέ; ἠθέλησας ἂν ζητῆσαι ἢ μαθεῖν ἃ ἐπίστασθαι ᾤου; [¶36] Alc. No, indeed. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶37] 106e. Soc. So there was a time when you did not think that you knew what you now actually know. > Greek: 106e. ΣΩ. ἃ ἄρα νῦν τυγχάνεις ἐπιστάμενος, ἦν χρόνος ὅτε οὐχ ἡγοῦ εἰδέναι; [¶38] Alc. There must have been. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀνάγκη. [¶39] Soc. Well, but I know pretty nearly the things that you have learnt: tell me if anything has escaped me. You learnt, if I recollect, writing and harping and wrestling; as for fluting, you refused to learn it. These are the things that you know, unless perhaps there is something you have been learning unobserved by me; and this you were not, I believe, if you so much as stepped out of doors either by night or by day. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν ἅ γε μεμάθηκας σχεδόν τι καὶ ἐγὼ οἶδα· εἰ δέ τι ἐμὲ λέληθεν, εἰπέ. ἔμαθες γὰρ δὴ σύ γε κατὰ μνήμην τὴν ἐμὴν γράμματα καὶ κιθαρίζειν καὶ παλαίειν· οὐ γὰρ δὴ αὐλεῖν γε ἤθελες μαθεῖν. ταῦτʼ ἐστὶν ἃ σὺ ἐπίστασαι, εἰ μή πού τι μανθάνων ἐμὲ λέληθας· οἶμαι δέ γε, οὔτε νύκτωρ οὔτε μεθʼ ἡμέραν ἐξιὼν ἔνδοθεν. [¶40] Alc. No, I have taken no other lessons than those. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλʼ οὐ πεφοίτηκα εἰς ἄλλων ἢ τούτων. [¶41] 107a. Soc. Then tell me, will it be when the Athenians are taking advice how they are to do their writing correctly that you are to stand up and advise them? Alc. Upon my word, not I. Soc. Well, about strokes on the lyre? Alc. Not at all. Soc. Nor in fact are they accustomed to deliberate on throws in wrestling either at the Assembly. Alc. No, to be sure. Soc. Then what will be the subject of the advice? For I presume it will not be about building. Alc. No, indeed. > Greek: 107a. ΣΩ. πότερον οὖν, ὅταν περὶ γραμμάτων Ἀθηναῖοι βουλεύωνται, πῶς ἂν ὀρθῶς γράφοιεν, τότε ἀναστήσῃ αὐτοῖς συμβουλεύσων; ΑΛ. μὰ Δίʼ οὐκ ἔγωγε. ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ὅταν περὶ κρουμάτων ἐν λύρᾳ; ΑΛ. οὐδαμῶς. ΣΩ. οὐδὲ μὴν οὐδὲ περὶ παλαισμάτων γε εἰώθασι βουλεύεσθαι ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ. ΑΛ. οὐ μέντοι. ΣΩ. ὅταν οὖν περὶ τίνος βουλεύωνται; οὐ γάρ που ὅταν γε περὶ οἰκοδομίας. ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. ΣΩ. οἰκοδόμος γὰρ ταῦτά γε σοῦ βέλτιον συμβουλεύσει. [¶42] 107b. Soc. For a builder will give better advice than you in that matter. Alc. Yes. Soc. Nor yet will it be about divination? Alc. No. Soc. For there again a diviner will serve better than you. Alc. Yes. Soc. Whether he be short or tall, handsome or ugly, nay, noble or ignoble. Alc. Of course. Soc. For on each subject the advice comes from one who knows, not one who has riches. Alc. Of course. Soc. And whether their mentor be poor or rich will make no difference to the Athenians when they deliberate for the health of the citizens; all that they require of their counsellor is that he be a physician. > Greek: 107b. ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. οὐδὲ μὴν ὅταν περὶ μαντικῆς βουλεύωνται; ΑΛ. οὔ. ΣΩ. μάντις γὰρ αὖ ταῦτα ἄμεινον ἢ σύ. ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. ἐάν τέ γε σμικρὸς ἢ μέγας ᾖ, ἐάν τε καλὸς ἢ αἰσχρός, ἔτι τε γενναῖος ἢ ἀγεννής. ΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; ΣΩ. εἰδότος γὰρ οἶμαι περὶ ἑκάστου ἡ συμβουλή, καὶ οὐ πλουτοῦντος. ΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ἐάντε πένης ἐάντε πλούσιος ᾖ ὁ παραινῶν, οὐδὲν διοίσει Ἀθηναίοις ὅταν περὶ τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει βουλεύωνται, πῶς ἂν ὑγιαίνοιεν, ἀλλὰ ζητήσουσιν ἰατρὸν εἶναι τὸν σύμβουλον. [¶43] 107c. Alc. Naturally. > Greek: 107c. ΑΛ. εἰκότως γε. [¶44] Soc. Then what will they have under consideration if you are to be right in standing up, when you do so, as their counsellor? > Greek: ΣΩ. ὅταν οὖν περὶ τίνος σκοπῶνται, τότε σὺ ἀνιστάμενος ὡς συμβουλεύσων ὀρθῶς ἀναστήσῃ; [¶45] Alc. Their own affairs, Socrates. > Greek: ΑΛ. ὅταν περὶ τῶν ἑαυτῶν πραγμάτων, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶46] Soc. Do you mean with regard to shipbuilding, and the question as to what sort of ships they ought to get built? > Greek: ΣΩ. τῶν περὶ ναυπηγίας λέγεις, ὁποίας τινὰς χρὴ αὐτοὺς τὰς ναῦς ναυπηγεῖσθαι; [¶47] Alc. No, I do not, Socrates. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐκ ἔγωγε, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶48] Soc. Because, I imagine, you do not understand shipbuilding. Is that, and that alone, the reason? > Greek: ΣΩ. ναυπηγεῖν γὰρ οἶμαι οὐκ ἐπίστασαι. τοῦτʼ αἴτιον ἢ ἄλλο τι; [¶49] Alc. That is just the reason. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὔκ, ἀλλὰ τοῦτο. [¶50] 107d. Soc. Well, on what sort of affairs of their own do you mean that they will be deliberating? > Greek: 107d. ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ περὶ ποίων τῶν ἑαυτῶν λέγεις πραγμάτων ὅταν βουλεύωνται; [¶51] Alc. On war, Socrates, or on peace, or on any other of the state’s affairs. > Greek: ΑΛ. ὅταν περὶ πολέμου, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἢ περὶ εἰρήνης ἢ ἄλλου του τῶν τῆς πόλεως πραγμάτων. [¶52] Soc. Do you mean that they will be deliberating with whom they ought to make peace, and on whom they ought to make war, and in what manner? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρα λέγεις ὅταν βουλεύωνται πρὸς τίνας χρὴ εἰρήνην ποιεῖσθαι καὶ τίσιν πολεμεῖν καὶ τίνα τρόπον; [¶53] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶54] Soc. And on whom it is better to do so, ought they not? > Greek: ΣΩ. χρὴ δʼ οὐχ οἷς βέλτιον; [¶55] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶56] 107e. Soc. And at such time as it is better? > Greek: 107e. ΣΩ. καὶ τόθʼ ὁπότε βέλτιον; [¶57] Alc. Certainly. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶58] Soc. And for so long as they had better? > Greek: ΣΩ. καὶ τοσοῦτον χρόνον ὅσον ἄμεινον; [¶59] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶60] Soc. Now if the Athenians should deliberate with whom they should wrestle close, and with whom only at arm’s length, and in what manner, would you or the wrestling-master be the better adviser? > Greek: ΣΩ. εἰ οὖν βουλεύοιντο Ἀθηναῖοι τίσιν χρὴ προσπαλαίειν καὶ τίσιν ἀκροχειρίζεσθαι καὶ τίνα τρόπον, σὺ ἄμεινον ἂν συμβουλεύοις ἢ ὁ παιδοτρίβης; [¶61] Alc. The wrestling-master, I presume. > Greek: ΑΛ. ὁ παιδοτρίβης δήπου. [¶62] Soc. And can you tell me what the wrestling-master would have in view when he advised as to the persons with whom they ought or ought not to wrestle close, and when and in what manner? What I mean is something like this: ought they not to wrestle close with those with whom it is better to do so? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔχεις οὖν εἰπεῖν πρὸς τί ⟨ἂν⟩ βλέπων ὁ παιδοτρίβης συμβουλεύσειεν οἷς δεῖ προσπαλαίειν καὶ οἷς μή, καὶ ὁπότε καὶ ὅντινα τρόπον; λέγω δὲ τὸ τοιόνδε· ἆρα τούτοις δεῖ προσπαλαίειν οἷς βέλτιον, ἢ οὔ; [¶63] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶64] 108a. Soc. And so far as is better, too? > Greek: 108a. ΣΩ. ἆρα καὶ τοσαῦτα ὅσα ἄμεινον; [¶65] Alc. So far. > Greek: ΑΛ. τοσαῦτα. [¶66] Soc. And at such time also as is better? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ τότε ὅτε ἄμεινον; [¶67] Alc. Certainly. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶68] Soc. But again, when one sings, one has sometimes to accompany the song with harping and stepping? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν καὶ ᾁδοντα δεῖ κιθαρίζειν ποτὲ πρὸς τὴν ᾠδὴν καὶ βαίνειν; [¶69] Alc. Yes, one has. > Greek: ΑΛ. δεῖ γάρ. [¶70] Soc. And at such time as is better? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τότε ὁπότε βέλτιον; [¶71] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶72] Soc. And so far as is better? > Greek: ΣΩ. καὶ τοσαῦθʼ ὅσα βέλτιον; [¶73] Alc. I agree. > Greek: ΑΛ. φημί. [¶74] Soc. Well now, since you applied the term “better” to the two cases of harping for accompaniment of a song and close wrestling, what do you call the “better” in the case of harping, to correspond with what in the case of wrestling I call gymnastic? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν; ἐπειδὴ βέλτιον μὲν ὠνόμαζες ἐπʼ ἀμφοτέροις, τῷ τε κιθαρίζειν πρὸς τὴν ᾠδὴν καὶ τῷ προσπαλαίειν, τί καλεῖς τὸ ἐν τῷ κιθαρίζειν βέλτιον, ὥσπερ ἐγὼ τὸ ἐν τῷ παλαίειν καλῶ γυμναστικόν· [¶75] 108b. What do you call the other? > Greek: 108b. σὺ δʼ ἐκεῖνο τί καλεῖς; [¶76] Alc. I do not understand. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐκ ἐννοῶ. [¶77] Soc. Well, try to copy me: for my answer gave you, I think, what is correct in every instance; and that is correct, I presume, which proceeds by rule of the art, is it not? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ πειρῶ ἐμὲ μιμεῖσθαι. ἐγὼ γάρ που ἀπεκρινάμην τὸ διὰ παντὸς ὀρθῶς ἔχον, ὀρθῶς δὲ δήπου ἔχει τὸ κατὰ τὴν τέχνην γιγνόμενον· ἢ οὔ; [¶78] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶79] Soc. And was not the art here gymnastic? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἡ δὲ τέχνη οὐ γυμναστικὴ ἦν; [¶80] Alc. To be sure. > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ; [¶81] 108c. Soc. And I said that the better in the case of wrestling was gymnastic. > Greek: 108c. ΣΩ. ἐγὼ δʼ εἶπον τὸ ἐν τῷ παλαίειν βέλτιον γυμναστικόν. [¶82] Alc. You did. > Greek: ΑΛ. εἶπες γάρ. [¶83] Soc. And I was quite fair? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καλῶς; [¶84] Alc. I think so. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. [¶85] Soc. Come then, in your turn—for it would befit you also, I fancy, to argue fairly —tell me, first, what is the art which includes harping and singing and treading the measure correctly? What is it called as a whole? You cannot yet tell me? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἴθι δὴ καὶ σύ—πρέποι γὰρ ἄν που καὶ σοὶ τὸ καλῶς διαλέγεσθαι—εἰπὲ πρῶτον τίς ἡ τέχνη ἧς τὸ κιθαρίζειν καὶ τὸ ᾁδειν καὶ τὸ ἐμβαίνειν ὀρθῶς; συνάπασα τίς καλεῖται; οὔπω δύνασαι εἰπεῖν; [¶86] Alc. No, indeed. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶87] Soc. Well, try another way: who are the goddesses that foster the art? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ὧδε πειρῶ· τίνες αἱ θεαὶ ὧν ἡ τέχνη; [¶88] Alc. The Muses, you mean, Socrates? > Greek: ΑΛ. τὰς μούσας, ὦ Σώκρατες, λέγεις; [¶89] 108d. Soc. I do. Now, just think, and say by what name the art is called after them. > Greek: 108d. ΣΩ. ἔγωγε. ὅρα δή· τίνα ἀπʼ αὐτῶν ἐπωνυμίαν ἡ τέχνη ἔχει; [¶90] Alc. Music, I suppose you mean. > Greek: ΑΛ. μουσικήν μοι δοκεῖς λέγειν. [¶91] Soc. Yes, I do. And what is that which proceeds correctly by its rule? As in the other case I was correct in mentioning to you gymnastic as that which goes by the art, so I ask you, accordingly, what you say in this case. What manner of proceeding is required? > Greek: ΣΩ. λέγω γάρ. τί οὖν τὸ κατὰ ταύτην ὀρθῶς γιγνόμενόν ἐστιν; ὥσπερ ἐκεῖ ἐγώ σοι τὸ κατὰ τὴν τέχνην ἔλεγον ὀρθῶς, τὴν γυμναστικήν, καὶ σὺ δὴ οὖν οὕτως ἐνταῦθα τί φῄς; πῶς γίγνεσθαι; [¶92] Alc. A musical one, I suppose. > Greek: ΑΛ. μουσικῶς μοι δοκεῖ. [¶93] Soc. You are right. Come then, what is it that you term “better,” in respect of what is better in waging war and being at peace? > Greek: ΣΩ. εὖ λέγεις. ἴθι δή, καὶ τὸ ἐν τῷ πολεμεῖν βέλτιον καὶ τὸ ἐν τῷ εἰρήνην ἄγειν, τοῦτο τὸ βέλτιον τί ὀνομάζεις; [¶94] 108e. Just as in our other instances you said that the “better” implied the more musical and again, in the parallel case, the more gymnastical, try now if you can tell me what is the “better” in this case. > Greek: 108e. ὥσπερ ἐκεῖ ἐφʼ ἑκάστῳ ἔλεγες τὸ ἄμεινον, ὅτι μουσικώτερον καὶ ἐπὶ τῷ ἑτέρῳ, ὅτι γυμναστικώτερον· πειρῶ δὴ καὶ ἐνταῦθα λέγειν τὸ βέλτιον. [¶95] Alc. But I am quite unable. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλʼ οὐ πάνυ τι ἔχω. [¶96] 109. Soc. But surely that is disgraceful; for if you should speak to somebody as his adviser on food, and say that one sort was better than another, at this time and in this quantity, and he then asked you—What do you mean by the “better,” Alcibiades?—in a matter like that you could tell him you meant the more wholesome, although you do not set up to be a physician; yet in a case where you set up to have knowledge and are ready to stand up and advise as though you knew, are you not ashamed to be unable, as appears, to answer a question upon it? > Greek: 109. ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μέντοι αἰσχρόν γε εἰ μέν τις σε λέγοντα καὶ συμβουλεύοντα περὶ σιτίων ὅτι βέλτιον τόδε τοῦδε καὶ νῦν καὶ τοσοῦτον, ἔπειτα ἐρωτήσειεν τί τὸ ἄμεινον λέγεις, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη; περὶ μὲν τούτων ἔχειν εἰπεῖν ὅτι τὸ ὑγιεινότερον, καίτοι οὐ προσποιῇ γε ἰατρὸς εἶναι· περὶ δὲ οὗ προσποιῇ ἐπιστήμων εἶναι καὶ συμβουλεύσεις ἀνιστάμενος ὡς εἰδώς, τούτου δʼ, ὡς ἔοικας, πέρι ἐρωτηθεὶς ἐὰν μὴ ἔχῃς εἰπεῖν, οὐκ αἰσχύνῃ; [¶97] 109a. Does it not seem disgraceful? > Greek: 109a. ἢ οὐκ αἰσχρὸν φανεῖται; [¶98] Alc. Very. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶99] Soc. Then consider and do your best to tell me the connection of “better” in being at peace or at war with those to whom we ought to be so disposed. > Greek: ΣΩ. σκόπει δὴ καὶ προθυμοῦ εἰπεῖν πρὸς τί τείνει τὸ ἐν τῷ εἰρήνην τε ἄγειν ἄμεινον καὶ τὸ ἐν τῷ πολεμεῖν οἷς δεῖ; [¶100] Alc. Well, I am considering, but I fail to perceive it. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ σκοπῶν οὐ δύναμαι ἐννοῆσαι. [¶101] Soc. But you must know what treatment it is that we allege against each other when we enter upon a war, and what name we give it when we do so? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐδʼ οἶσθα, ἐπειδὰν πόλεμον ποιώμεθα, ὅτι ἐγκαλοῦντες ἀλλήλοις πάθημα ἐρχόμεθα εἰς τὸ πολεμεῖν, καὶ ὅτι αὐτὸ ὀνομάζοντες ἐρχόμεθα; [¶102] 109b. Alc. I do: we say we are victims of deceit or violence or spoliation. > Greek: 109b. ΑΛ. ἔγωγε, ὅτι γε ἐξαπατώμενοί τι ἢ βιαζόμενοι ἢ ἀποστερούμενοι. [¶103] Soc. Enough: how do we suffer each of these things? Try and tell me what difference there is between one way and another. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔχε· πῶς ἕκαστα τούτων πάσχοντες; πειρῶ εἰπεῖν τί διαφέρει τὸ ὧδε ἢ ὧδε. [¶104] Alc. Do you mean by that, Socrates, whether it is in a just way or an unjust way? > Greek: ΑΛ. ἦ τὸ ὧδε λέγεις, ὦ Σώκρατες, τὸ δικαίως ἢ τὸ ἀδίκως; [¶105] Soc. Precisely. > Greek: ΣΩ. αὐτὸ τοῦτο. [¶106] Alc. Why, there you have all the difference in the world. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ μὴν τοῦτο γε διαφέρει ὅλον τε καὶ πᾶν. [¶107] Soc. Well then, on which sort are you going to advise the Athenians to make war—those who are acting unjustly, or those who are doing what is just? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν; Ἀθηναίοις σὺ πρὸς ποτέρους συμβουλεύσεις πολεμεῖν, τοὺς ἀδικοῦντας ἢ τοὺς τὰ δίκαια πράττοντας; [¶108] 109c. Alc. That is a hard question: for even if someone decides that he must go to war with those who are doing what is just, he would not admit that they were doing so. > Greek: 109c. ΑΛ. δεινὸν τοῦτό γε ἐρωτᾷς· εἰ γὰρ καὶ διανοεῖταί τις ὡς δεῖ πρὸς τοὺς τὰ δίκαια πράττοντας πολεμεῖν, οὐκ ἂν ὁμολογήσειέν γε. [¶109] Soc. For that would not be lawful, I suppose? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐ γὰρ νόμιμον τοῦθʼ, ὡς ἔοικεν. [¶110] Alc. No, indeed; nor is it considered honorable either. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα· οὐδέ γε καλὸν δοκεῖ εἶναι. [¶111] Soc. So you too will appeal to these things in making your speeches? > Greek: ΣΩ. πρὸς ταῦτʼ ἄρα καὶ σὺ [τὸ δίκαιον] τοὺς λόγους ποιήσῃ; [¶112] Alc. Necessarily. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀνάγκη. [¶113] Soc. Then must not that “better” about which I was asking in reference to making or not making war, on those on whom we ought to or not, and when we ought to or not, be simply and solely the juster? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἄλλο τι οὖν, ὃ νυνδὴ ἐγὼ ἠρώτων βέλτιον πρὸς τὸ πολεμεῖν καὶ μή, καὶ οἷς δεῖ καὶ οἷς μή, καὶ ὁπότε καὶ μή, τὸ δικαιότερον τυγχάνει ὄν; ἢ οὔ; [¶114] Alc. Apparently it is. > Greek: ΑΛ. φαίνεταί γε. [¶115] 109d. Soc. How now, friend Alcibiades? Have you overlooked your own ignorance of this matter, or have I overlooked your learning it and taking lessons of a master who taught you to distinguish the more just and the more unjust? And who is he? Inform me in my turn, in order that you may introduce me to him as another pupil. > Greek: 109d. ΣΩ. πῶς οὖν, ὦ φίλε Ἀλκιβιάδη; πότερον σαυτὸν λέληθας ὅτι οὐκ ἐπίστασαι τοῦτο, ἢ ἐμὲ ἔλαθες μανθάνων καὶ φοιτῶν εἰς διδασκάλου ὅς σε ἐδίδασκε διαγιγνώσκειν τὸ δικαιότερόν τε καὶ ἀδικώτερον; καὶ τίς ἐστιν οὗτος; φράσον καὶ ἐμοί, ἵνα αὐτῷ φοιτητὴν προξενήσῃς καὶ ἐμέ. [¶116] Alc. You are joking, Socrates. > Greek: ΑΛ. σκώπτεις, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶117] Soc. No, I swear by our common God of Friendship, whose name I would by no means take in vain. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐ μὰ τὸν Φίλιον τὸν ἐμόν τε καὶ σόν, ὃν ἐγὼ ἥκιστʼ ἂν ἐπιορκήσαιμι· ἀλλʼ εἴπερ ἔχεις, εἰπὲ τίς ἐστιν. [¶118] 109e. Come, if you can, tell me who the man is. Alc. But what if I cannot? Do you think I could not know about what is just and unjust in any other way? Soc. Yes, you might, supposing you discovered it. Alc. But do you not think I might discover it? Soc. Yes, quite so, if you inquired. Alc. And do you not think I might inquire? Soc. I do, if you thought you did not know. Alc. And was there not a time when I held that view? > Greek: 109e. ΑΛ. τί δʼ εἰ μὴ ἔχω; οὐκ ἂν οἴει με ἄλλως εἰδέναι περὶ τῶν δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων; ΣΩ. ναί, εἴ γε εὕροις. ΑΛ. ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἂν εὑρεῖν με ἡγῇ; ΣΩ. καὶ μάλα γε, εἰ ζητήσαις. ΑΛ. εἶτα ζητῆσαι οὐκ ἂν οἴει με; ΣΩ. ἔγωγε, εἰ οἰηθείης γε μὴ εἰδέναι. ΑΛ. εἶτα οὐκ ἦν ὅτʼ εἶχον οὕτω; [¶119] 110. Soc. Well spoken. Then can you tell me at what time it was that you thought you did not know what is just and unjust? > Greek: 110. ΣΩ. καλῶς λέγεις. ἔχεις οὖν εἰπεῖν τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον ὅτε οὐκ ᾤου εἰδέναι τὰ δίκαια καὶ τὰ ἄδικα; [¶120] 110a. Pray, was it a year ago that you were inquiring, and thought you did not know? Or did you think you knew? Please answer truly, that our debates may not be futile. > Greek: 110a. φέρε, πέρυσιν ἐζήτεις τε καὶ οὐκ ᾤου εἰδέναι; ἢ ᾤου; καὶ τἀληθῆ ἀποκρίνου, ἵνα μὴ μάτην οἱ διάλογοι γίγνωνται. [¶121] Alc. Well, I thought I knew. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλʼ ᾤμην εἰδέναι. [¶122] Soc. And two years, and three years, and four years back, were you not of the same mind? > Greek: ΣΩ. τρίτον δʼ ἔτος καὶ τέταρτον καὶ πέμπτον οὐχ οὕτως; [¶123] Alc. I was. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔγωγε. [¶124] Soc. But, you see, before that time you were a child, were you not? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν τό γε πρὸ τοῦ παῖς ἦσθα. ἦ γάρ; [¶125] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶126] Soc. So I know well enough that then you thought you knew. > Greek: ΣΩ. τότε μὲν τοίνυν εὖ οἶδα ὅτι ᾤου εἰδέναι. [¶127] Alc. How do you know it so well? > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς εὖ οἶσθα; [¶128] 110b. Soc. Many a time I heard you, when as a child you were dicing or playing some other game at your teacher’s or elsewhere, instead of showing hesitation about what was just and unjust, speak in very loud and confident tones about one or other of your playmates, saying he was a rascal and a cheat who played unfairly. Is not this a true account? > Greek: 110b. ΣΩ. πολλάκις σοῦ ἐν διδασκάλων ἤκουον παιδὸς ὄντος καὶ ἄλλοθι, καὶ ὁπότε ἀστραγαλίζοις ἢ ἄλλην τινὰ παιδιὰν παίζοις, οὐχ ὡς ἀποροῦντος περὶ τῶν δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων, ἀλλὰ μάλα μέγα καὶ θαρραλέως λέγοντος περὶ ὅτου τύχοις τῶν παίδων ὡς πονηρός τε καὶ ἄδικος εἴη καὶ ὡς ἀδικοῖ· ἢ οὐκ ἀληθῆ λέγω; [¶129] Alc. But what was I to do, Socrates, when somebody cheated me? > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ τί ἔμελλον ποιεῖν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὁπότε τίς με ἀδικοῖ; [¶130] Soc. Yet if you were ignorant then whether you were being unfairly treated or not, how can you ask—“What are you to do?” > Greek: ΣΩ. σὺ δʼ εἰ τύχοις ἀγνοῶν εἴτʼ ἀδικοῖο εἴτε μὴ τότε, λέγεις, τί σε χρὴ ποιεῖν; [¶131] 110c. Alc. Well, but on my word, I was not ignorant: no, I clearly understood that I was being wronged. > Greek: 110c. ΑΛ. μὰ Δίʼ ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἠγνόουν ἔγωγε, ἀλλὰ σαφῶς ἐγίγνωσκον ὅτι ἠδικούμην. [¶132] Soc. So you thought you knew, even as a child, it seems, what was just and unjust. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὤιου ἄρα ἐπίστασθαι καὶ παῖς ὤν, ὡς ἔοικε, τὰ δίκαια καὶ τὰ ἄδικα. [¶133] Alc. I did; and I knew too. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔγωγε· καὶ ἠπιστάμην γε. [¶134] Soc. At what sort of time did you discover it? For surely it was not while you thought you knew. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἐν ποίῳ χρόνῳ ἐξευρών; οὐ γὰρ δήπου ἐν ᾧ γε ᾤου εἰδέναι. [¶135] Alc. No, indeed. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶136] Soc. Then when did you think you were ignorant? Consider; I believe you will fail to find such a time. > Greek: ΣΩ. πότε οὖν ἀγνοεῖν ἡγοῦ; σκόπει· οὐ γὰρ εὑρήσεις τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον. [¶137] Alc. Upon my word, Socrates, I really cannot say. > Greek: ΑΛ. μὰ τὸν Δίʼ, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὔκουν ἔχω γʼ εἰπεῖν. [¶138] 110d. Soc. So you do not know it by discovery. > Greek: 110d. ΣΩ. εὑρὼν μὲν ἄρʼ οὐκ οἶσθα αὐτά. [¶139] Alc. Not at all, apparently. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ πάνυ φαίνομαι. [¶140] Soc. But you said just now that you did not know it by learning either; and if you neither discovered nor learnt it, how do you come to know it, and whence? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν ἄρτι γε οὐδὲ μαθὼν ἔφησθα εἰδέναι· εἰ δὲ μήθʼ ηὗρες μήτʼ ἔμαθες, πῶς οἶσθα καὶ πόθεν; [¶141] Alc. Well, perhaps that answer I gave you was not correct, that I knew it by my own discovery. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλʼ ἴσως τοῦτό σοι οὐκ ὀρθῶς ἀπεκρινάμην, τὸ φάναι εἰδέναι αὐτὸς ἐξευρών. [¶142] Soc. Then how was it done? > Greek: ΣΩ. τὸ δὲ πῶς εἶχεν; [¶143] Alc. I learnt it, I suppose, in the same way as everyone else. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔμαθον οἶμαι καὶ ἐγὼ ὥσπερ καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι. [¶144] Soc. Back we come to the same argument. From whom? Please tell me. > Greek: ΣΩ. πάλιν εἰς τὸν αὐτὸν ἥκομεν λόγον. παρὰ τοῦ; φράζε κἀμοί. [¶145] 110e. Alc. From the many. > Greek: 110e. ΑΛ. παρὰ τῶν πολλῶν. [¶146] Soc. They are no very serious teachers with whom you take refuge, if you ascribe it to the many! > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκ εἰς σπουδαίους γε διδασκάλους καταφεύγεις εἰς τοὺς πολλοὺς ἀναφέρων. [¶147] Alc. Why, are they not competent to teach? > Greek: ΑΛ. τί δέ; οὐχ ἱκανοὶ διδάξαι οὗτοι; [¶148] Soc. Not how to play, or not to play, draughts; and yet that, I imagine, is a slight matter compared with justice. What? Do you not think so? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὔκουν τὰ πεττευτικά γε καὶ τὰ μή· καίτοι φαυλότερα αὐτὰ οἶμαι τῶν δικαίων εἶναι. τί δέ; σὺ οὐχ οὕτως οἴει; [¶149] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶150] Soc. Then if they are unable to teach the slighter, can they teach the more serious matter? > Greek: ΣΩ. εἶτα τὰ μὲν φαυλότερα οὐχ οἷοί τε διδάσκειν, τὰ δὲ σπουδαιότερα; [¶151] Alc. I think so: at any rate, there are many other things that they are able to teach, more serious than draughts. > Greek: ΑΛ. οἶμαι ἔγωγε· ἄλλα γοῦν πολλὰ οἷοί τʼ εἰσὶν διδάσκειν σπουδαιότερα τοῦ πεττεύειν. [¶152] Soc. What sort of things? > Greek: ΣΩ. ποῖα ταῦτα; [¶153] 111a. Alc. For instance, it was from them that I learnt to speak Greek, and I could not say who was my teacher, but can only ascribe it to the same people who, you say, are not serious teachers. > Greek: 111a. ΑΛ. οἷον καὶ τὸ ἑλληνίζειν παρὰ τούτων ἔγωγʼ ἔμαθον, καὶ οὐκ ἂν ἔχοιμι εἰπεῖν ἐμαυτοῦ διδάσκαλον, ἀλλʼ εἰς τοὺς αὐτοὺς ἀναφέρω οὓς σὺ φῂς οὐ σπουδαίους εἶναι διδασκάλους. [¶154] Soc. Ah, gallant sir, the many may be good teachers of that, and they can justly be praised for their teaching of such subjects. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ γενναῖε, τούτου μὲν ἀγαθοὶ διδάσκαλοι οἱ πολλοί, καὶ δικαίως ἐπαινοῖντʼ ἂν αὐτῶν εἰς διδασκαλίαν. [¶155] Alc. And why? > Greek: ΑΛ. τί δή; [¶156] Soc. Because in those subjects they have the equipment proper to good teachers. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὅτι ἔχουσι περὶ αὐτὰ ἃ χρὴ τοὺς ἀγαθοὺς διδασκάλους ἔχειν. [¶157] Alc. What do you mean by that? > Greek: ΑΛ. τί τοῦτο λέγεις; [¶158] Soc. You know that those who are going to teach anything should first know it themselves, do you not? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκ οἶσθʼ ὅτι χρὴ τοὺς μέλλοντας διδάσκειν ὁτιοῦν αὐτοὺς πρῶτον εἰδέναι; [¶159] 111b. Alc. Of course. Soc. And that those who know should agree with each other and not differ? Alc. Yes. Soc. But if they differ upon anything, will you say that they know it? Alc. No, indeed. Soc. Then how can they be teachers of it? Alc. By no means. Soc. Well now, do you find that the many differ about the nature of stone or wood? If you ask one of them, do they not agree on the same answer, and make for the same things when they want to get a piece of stone or wood? > Greek: 111b. ἢ οὔ; ΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τοὺς εἰδότας ὁμολογεῖν τε ἀλλήλοις καὶ μὴ διαφέρεσθαι; ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. ἐν οἷς δʼ ἂν διαφέρωνται, ταῦτα φήσεις εἰδέναι αὐτούς; ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. ΣΩ. τούτων οὖν διδάσκαλοι πῶς ἂν εἶεν; ΑΛ. οὐδαμῶς. ΣΩ. τί οὖν; δοκοῦσί σοι διαφέρεσθαι οἱ πολλοὶ ποῖόν ἐστι λίθος ἢ ξύλον; καὶ ἐάν τινα ἐρωτᾷς, ἆρʼ οὐ τὰ αὐτὰ ὁμολογοῦσιν, καὶ ἐπὶ ταὐτὰ ὁρμῶσιν ὅταν βούλωνται λαβεῖν λίθον ἢ ξύλον; [¶160] 111c. It is just the same, too, with everything of the sort: for I am pretty nearly right in understanding you to mean just this by knowing how to speak Greek, am I not? Alc. Yes. Soc. And on these matters, as we stated, they not only agree with each other and with themselves in private, but states also use in public the same terms about them to each other, without any dispute? Alc. They do. > Greek: 111c. ὡσαύτως καὶ πάνθʼ ὅσα τοιαῦτα· σχεδὸν γάρ τι μανθάνω τὸ ἑλληνίζειν ἐπίστασθαι ὅτι τοῦτο λέγεις· ἢ οὔ; ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἰς μὲν ταῦθʼ, ὥσπερ εἴπομεν, ἀλλήλοις τε ὁμολογοῦσι καὶ αὐτοὶ ἑαυτοῖς ἰδίᾳ, καὶ δημοσίᾳ αἱ πόλεις πρὸς ἀλλήλας οὐκ ἀμφισβητοῦσιν αἱ μὲν ταῦθʼ αἱ δʼ ἄλλα φάσκουσαι; ΑΛ. οὐ γάρ. ΣΩ. εἰκότως ἂν ἄρα τούτων γε καὶ διδάσκαλοι εἶεν ἀγαθοί. [¶161] 111d. Soc. Then naturally they will be good teachers of these matters. Alc. Yes. Soc. And if we should wish to provide anyone with knowledge of them, we should be right in sending him to be taught by “the many” that you speak of? Alc. Certainly. Soc. But what if we wished to know not only what men were like or what horses were like, but which of them were good runners or not? Would the many still suffice to teach us this? Alc. No, indeed. Soc. And you have ample proof that they do not know this, and are not proficient teachers of it, in their not agreeing about it at all with themselves? > Greek: 111d. ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἰ μὲν βουλοίμεθα ποιῆσαί τινα περὶ αὐτῶν εἰδέναι, ὀρθῶς ἂν αὐτὸν πέμποιμεν εἰς διδασκαλίαν τούτων τῶν πολλῶν; ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. ΣΩ. τί δʼ εἰ βουληθεῖμεν εἰδέναι, μὴ μόνον ποῖοι ἄνθρωποί εἰσιν ἢ ποῖοι ἵπποι, ἀλλὰ καὶ τίνες αὐτῶν δρομικοί τε καὶ μή, ἆρʼ ἔτι οἱ πολλοὶ τοῦτο ἱκανοὶ διδάξαι; ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. ΣΩ. ἱκανὸν δέ σοι τεκμήριον ὅτι οὐκ ἐπίστανται οὐδὲ κρήγυοι διδάσκαλοί εἰσιν τούτων, ἐπειδὴ οὐδὲν ὁμολογοῦσιν ἑαυτοῖς περὶ αὐτῶν; [¶162] 111e. Alc. I have. > Greek: 111e. ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε. [¶163] Soc. And what if we wished to know not only what men were like, but what healthy or diseased men were like? Would the many suffice to teach us? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δʼ εἰ βουληθεῖμεν εἰδέναι, μὴ μόνον ποῖοι ἄνθρωποί εἰσιν, ἀλλʼ ὁποῖοι ὑγιεινοὶ ἢ νοσώδεις, ἆρʼ ἱκανοὶ ἂν ἡμῖν ἦσαν διδάσκαλοι οἱ πολλοί; [¶164] Alc. No, indeed. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶165] Soc. And you would have proof of their being bad teachers of that, if you saw them differing about it? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἦν δʼ ἄν σοι τεκμήριον ὅτι μοχθηροί εἰσι τούτων διδάσκαλοι, εἰ ἑώρας αὐτοὺς διαφερομένους; [¶166] Alc. I should. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε. [¶167] 112. Soc. Well then, do you now find that the many agree with themselves or each other about just and unjust men or things? > Greek: 112. ΣΩ. τί δὲ δή; νῦν περὶ τῶν δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων ἀνθρώπων καὶ πραγμάτων οἱ πολλοὶ δοκοῦσί σοι ὁμολογεῖν αὐτοὶ ἑαυτοῖς ἢ ἀλλήλοις; [¶168] 112a. Alc. Far from it, on my word, Socrates. > Greek: 112a. ΑΛ. ἥκιστα νὴ Δίʼ, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶169] Soc. In fact, they differ most especially on these points? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δέ; μάλιστα περὶ αὐτῶν διαφέρεσθαι; [¶170] Alc. Very much so. > Greek: ΑΛ. πολύ γε. [¶171] Soc. And I suppose you never yet saw or heard of people differing so sharply on questions of health or the opposite as to fight and kill one another in battle because of them. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὔκουν οἴομαί γε πώποτέ σε ἰδεῖν οὐδʼ ἀκοῦσαι σφόδρα οὕτω διαφερομένους ἀνθρώπους περὶ ὑγιεινῶν καὶ μή, ὥστε διὰ ταῦτα μάχεσθαί τε καὶ ἀποκτεινύναι ἀλλήλους. [¶172] Alc. No, indeed. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶173] Soc. But on questions of justice or injustice I am sure you have; > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ περὶ τῶν δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων ἔγωγʼ οἶδʼ ὅτι, καὶ εἰ μὴ ἑώρακας, ἀκήκοας γοῦν ἄλλων τε πολλῶν καὶ Ὁμήρου· [¶174] 112b. and if you have not seen them, at any rate you have heard of them from many people, especially Homer. For you have heard the Odyssey and the Iliad? Alc. I certainly have, I suppose, Socrates. Soc. And these poems are about a difference of just and unjust Alc. Yes. Soc. And from this difference arose the fights and deaths of the Achaeans, and of the Trojans as well, and of the suitors of Penelope in their strife with Odysseus. > Greek: 112b. καὶ Ὀδυσσείας γὰρ καὶ Ἰλιάδος ἀκήκοας. ΑΛ. πάντως δήπου, ὦ Σώκρατες. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ταῦτα ποιήματά ἐστι περὶ διαφορᾶς δικαίων τε καὶ ἀδίκων; ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. καὶ αἱ μάχαι γε καὶ οἱ θάνατοι διὰ ταύτην τὴν διαφορὰν τοῖς τε Ἀχαιοῖς καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις Τρωσὶν ἐγένοντο, καὶ τοῖς μνηστῆρσι τοῖς τῆς Πηνελόπης καὶ τῷ Ὀδυσσεῖ. [¶175] 112c. Alc. That is true. > Greek: 112c. ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. [¶176] Soc. And I imagine that when the Athenians and Spartans and Boeotians lost their men at Tanagra, and later at Coronea, among whom your own father perished, the difference that caused their deaths and fights was solely on a question of just and unjust, was it not? > Greek: ΣΩ. οἶμαι δὲ καὶ τοῖς ἐν Τανάγρᾳ Ἀθηναίων τε καὶ Λακεδαιμονίων καὶ Βοιωτῶν ἀποθανοῦσι, καὶ τοῖς ὕστερον ἐν Κορωνείᾳ, ἐν οἷς καὶ ὁ σὸς πατὴρ [Κλεινίας] ἐτελεύτησεν, οὐδὲ περὶ ἑνὸς ἄλλου ἡ διαφορὰ ἢ περὶ τοῦ δικαίου καὶ ἀδίκου τοὺς θανάτους καὶ τὰς μάχας πεποίηκεν· ἦ γάρ; [¶177] Alc. That is true. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. [¶178] Soc. Then are we to say that these people understand those questions, on which they differ so sharply that they are led by their mutual disputes to take these extreme measures against each other? > Greek: ΣΩ. τούτους οὖν φῶμεν ἐπίστασθαι περὶ ὧν οὕτως σφόδρα διαφέρονται, ὥστε ἀμφισβητοῦντες ἀλλήλοις τὰ ἔσχατα σφᾶς αὐτοὺς ἐργάζονται; [¶179] 112d. Alc. Apparently not. > Greek: 112d. ΑΛ. οὐ φαίνεταί γε. [¶180] Soc. And you refer me to teachers of that sort, whom you admit yourself to be without knowledge? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἰς τοὺς τοιούτους διδασκάλους ἀναφέρεις οὓς ὁμολογεῖς αὐτὸς μὴ εἰδέναι; [¶181] Alc. It seems I do. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔοικα. [¶182] Soc. Then how is it likely that you should know what is just and unjust, when you are so bewildered about these matters and are shown to have neither learnt them from anyone nor discovered them for yourself?. > Greek: ΣΩ. πῶς οὖν εἰκός σε εἰδέναι τὰ δίκαια καὶ τὰ ἄδικα, περὶ ὧν οὕτω πλανᾷ καὶ οὔτε μαθὼν φαίνῃ παρʼ οὐδενὸς οὔτʼ αὐτὸς ἐξευρών; [¶183] Alc. By what you say, it is not likely. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἐκ μὲν ὧν σὺ λέγεις οὐκ εἰκός. [¶184] 112e. Soc. There again, Alcibiades, do you see how unfairly you speak? > Greek: 112e. ΣΩ. ὁρᾷς αὖ τοῦθʼ ὡς οὐ καλῶς εἶπες, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη; [¶185] Alc. In what? > Greek: ΑΛ. τὸ ποῖον; [¶186] Soc. In stating that I say so. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὅτι ἐμὲ φῂς ταῦτα λέγειν. [¶187] Alc. Why, do you not say that l do not know about the just and unjust? > Greek: ΑΛ. τί δέ; οὐ σὺ λέγεις ὡς ἐγὼ οὐδὲν ἐπίσταμαι περὶ τῶν δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων; [¶188] Soc. Not at all. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐ μέντοι. [¶189] Alc. Well, do I say it? > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλʼ ἐγώ; [¶190] Soc. Yes. > Greek: ΣΩ. ναί. [¶191] Alc. How, pray? > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς δή; [¶192] Soc. I will show you, in the following way. If I ask you which is the greater number, one or two, you will answer “two”? > Greek: ΣΩ. ὧδε εἴσῃ. ἐάν σε ἔρωμαι τὸ ἓν καὶ τὰ δύο πότερα πλείω ἐστί, φήσεις ὅτι τὰ δύο; [¶193] Alc. Yes, I shall. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔγωγε. [¶194] Soc. How much greater? > Greek: ΣΩ. πόσῳ; [¶195] Alc. By one. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἑνί. [¶196] Soc. Then which of us says that two are one more than one? > Greek: ΣΩ. πότερος οὖν ἡμῶν ὁ λέγων ὅτι τὰ δύο τοῦ ἑνὸς ἑνὶ πλείω; [¶197] Alc. I. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἐγώ. [¶198] Soc. And I was asking, and you were answering? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἐγὼ μὲν ἠρώτων, σὺ δʼ ἀπεκρίνου; [¶199] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶200] 113a. Soc. Then is it I, the questioner, or you the answerer, that are found to be speaking about these things? > Greek: 113a. ΣΩ. περὶ δὴ τούτων μῶν ἐγὼ φαίνομαι λέγων ὁ ἐρωτῶν, ἢ σὺ ὁ ἀποκρινόμενος; [¶201] Alc. I. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἐγώ. [¶202] Soc. And what if I ask what are the letters in “Socrates,” and you tell me? Which will be the speaker? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δʼ ἂν ἐγὼ μὲν ἔρωμαι ποῖα γράμματα Σωκράτους, σὺ δʼ εἴπῃς, πότερος ὁ λέγων; [¶203] Alc. I. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἐγώ. [¶204] Soc. Come then, tell me, as a principle, when we have question and answer, which is the speaker—the questioner, or the answerer? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἴθι δή, ἑνὶ λόγῳ εἰπέ· ὅταν ἐρώτησίς τε καὶ ἀπόκρισις γίγνηται, πότερος ὁ λέγων, ὁ ἐρωτῶν ἢ ὁ ἀποκρινόμενος; [¶205] Alc. The answerer, I should say, Socrates. > Greek: ΑΛ. ὁ ἀποκρινόμενος, ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶206] 113b. Soc. And throughout the argument so far, I was the questioner? > Greek: 113b. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἄρτι διὰ παντὸς ἐγὼ μὲν ἦ ὁ ἐρωτῶν; [¶207] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶208] Soc. And you the answerer? > Greek: ΣΩ. σὺ δʼ ὁ ἀποκρινόμενος; [¶209] Alc. Quite so. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶210] Soc. Well then, which of us has spoken what has been said? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν; τὰ λεχθέντα πότερος ἡμῶν εἴρηκεν; [¶211] Alc. Apparently, Socrates, from what we have admitted, it was I. > Greek: ΑΛ. φαίνομαι μέν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐκ τῶν ὡμολογημένων ἐγώ. [¶212] Soc. And it was said that Alcibiades, the fair son of Cleinias, did not know about just and unjust, but thought he did, and intended to go to the Assembly as adviser to the Athenians on what he knows nothing about; is not that so? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἐλέχθη περὶ δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων ὅτι Ἀλκιβιάδης ὁ καλὸς ὁ Κλεινίου οὐκ ἐπίσταιτο, οἴοιτο δέ, καὶ μέλλοι εἰς ἐκκλησίαν ἐλθὼν συμβουλεύσειν Ἀθηναίοις περὶ ὧν οὐδὲν οἶδεν; οὐ ταῦτʼ ἦν; [¶213] 113c. Alc. Apparently. > Greek: 113c. ΑΛ. φαίνεται. [¶214] Soc. Then, to quote Euripides, the result is, Alcibiades, that you may be said to have heard it from yourself, not me, and it is not I who say it, but you, and you tax me with it in vain. And indeed what you say is quite true. For it is a mad scheme this, that you meditate, my excellent friend—of teaching things that you do not know, since you have taken no care to learn them. > Greek: ΣΩ. τὸ τοῦ Εὐριπίδου ἄρα συμβαίνει, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη· σοῦ τάδε κινδυνεύεις, οὐκ ἐμοῦ ἀκηκοέναι, οὐδʼ ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ταῦτα λέγων, ἀλλὰ σύ, ἐμὲ δὲ αἰτιᾷ μάτην. καὶ μέντοι καὶ εὖ λέγεις. μανικὸν γὰρ ἐν νῷ ἔχεις ἐπιχείρημα ἐπιχειρεῖν, ὦ βέλτιστε, διδάσκειν ἃ οὐκ οἶσθα, ἀμελήσας μανθάνειν. [¶215] 113d. Alc. I think, Socrates, that the Athenians and the rest of the Greeks rarely deliberate as to which is the more just or unjust course: for they regard questions of this sort as obvious; and so they pass them over and consider which course will prove more expedient in the result. For the just and the expedient, I take it, are not the same, but many people have profited by great wrongs that they have committed, whilst others, I imagine, have had no advantage from doing what was right. > Greek: 113d. ΑΛ. οἶμαι μέν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὀλιγάκις Ἀθηναίους βουλεύεσθαι καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους Ἕλληνας πότερα δικαιότερα ἢ ἀδικώτερα· τὰ μὲν γὰρ τοιαῦτα ἡγοῦνται δῆλα εἶναι, ἐάσαντες οὖν περὶ αὐτῶν σκοποῦσιν ὁπότερα συνοίσει πράξασιν. οὐ γὰρ ταὐτὰ οἶμαι ἐστὶν τά τε δίκαια καὶ τὰ συμφέροντα, ἀλλὰ πολλοῖς δὴ ἐλυσιτέλησεν ἀδικήσασι μεγάλα ἀδικήματα, καὶ ἑτέροις γε οἶμαι δίκαια ἐργασαμένοις οὐ συνήνεγκεν. [¶216] Soc. What then? Granting that the just and the expedient are in fact as different as they can be, you surely do not still suppose you know what is expedient for mankind, and why it is so? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν; εἰ ὅτι μάλιστα ἕτερα μὲν τὰ δίκαια τυγχάνει ὄντα, ἕτερα δὲ τὰ συμφέροντα, οὔ τί που αὖ σὺ οἴει ταῦτʼ εἰδέναι ἃ συμφέρει τοῖς ἀνθρώποις, καὶ διʼ ὅτι; [¶217] 113e. Alc. Well, what is the obstacle, Socrates,—unless you are going to ask me again from whom I learnt it, or how I discovered it for myself? > Greek: 113e. ΑΛ. τί γὰρ κωλύει, ὦ Σώκρατες; εἰ μή με αὖ ἐρήσῃ παρʼ ὅτου ἔμαθον ἢ ὅπως αὐτὸς ηὗρον. [¶218] 114. Soc. What a way of going on! If your answer is incorrect, and a previous argument can be used to prove it so, you claim to be told something new, and a different line of proof, as though the previous one were like a poor worn-out coat which you refuse to wear any longer; you must be provided instead with something clean and unsoiled in the way of evidence. > Greek: 114. ΣΩ. οἷον τοῦτο ποιεῖς. εἴ τι μὴ ὀρθῶς λέγεις, τυγχάνει δὲ δυνατὸν ὂν ἀποδεῖξαι διʼ οὗπερ καὶ τὸ πρότερον λόγου, οἴει δὴ καινὰ ἄττα δεῖν ἀκούειν ἀποδείξεις τε ἑτέρας, ὡς τῶν προτέρων οἷον σκευαρίων κατατετριμμένων, καὶ οὐκέτʼ ἂν σὺ αὐτὰ ἀμπίσχοιο, εἰ μή τίς σοι τεκμήριον καθαρὸν καὶ ἄχραντον οἴσει. [¶219] 114a. But I shall ignore your sallies in debate, and shall none the less ask you once more, where you learnt your knowledge of what is expedient, and who is your teacher, asking in one question all the things I asked before; and now you will clearly find yourself in the same plight, and will be unable to prove that you know the expedient either through discovery or through learning. But as you are dainty, and would dislike a repeated taste of the same argument, I pass over this question of whether you know or do not know what is expedient for the Athenians: but why have you not made it clear whether the just and the expedient are the same or different? > Greek: 114a. ἐγὼ δὲ χαίρειν ἐάσας τὰς σὰς προδρομὰς τοῦ λόγου οὐδὲν ἧττον ἐρήσομαι πόθεν μαθὼν αὖ τὰ συμφέροντʼ ἐπίστασαι, καὶ ὅστις ἐστὶν ὁ διδάσκαλος, καὶ πάντʼ ἐκεῖνα τὰ πρότερον ἐρωτῶ μιᾷ ἐρωτήσει; ἀλλὰ γὰρ δῆλον ὡς εἰς ταὐτὸν ἥξεις καὶ οὐχ ἕξεις ἀποδεῖξαι οὔθʼ ὡς ἐξευρὼν οἶσθα τὰ συμφέροντα οὔθʼ ὡς μαθών. ἐπειδὴ δὲ τρυφᾷς καὶ οὐκέτʼ ἂν ἡδέως τοῦ αὐτοῦ γεύσαιο λόγου, τοῦτον μὲν ἐῶ χαίρειν, εἴτʼ οἶσθα εἴτε μὴ τὰ Ἀθηναίοις συμφέροντα· [¶220] 114b. If you like, question me as I did you, or if you prefer, argue out the matter in your own way. > Greek: 114b. πότερον δὲ ταὐτά ἐστι δίκαιά τε καὶ συμφέροντʼ ἢ ἕτερα, τί οὐκ ἀπέδειξας; εἰ μὲν βούλει, ἐρωτῶν με ὥσπερ ἐγὼ σέ, εἰ δέ, καὶ αὐτὸς ἐπὶ σεαυτοῦ λόγῳ διέξελθε. [¶221] Alc. But I am not sure I should be able, Socrates, to set it forth to you. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλʼ οὐκ οἶδα εἰ οἷός τʼ ἂν εἴην, ὦ Σώκρατες, πρὸς σὲ διελθεῖν. [¶222] Soc. Well, my good sir, imagine I am the people in Assembly; even there, you know, you will have to persuade each man singly, will you not? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ, ὠγαθέ, ἐμὲ ἐκκλησίαν νόμισον καὶ δῆμον· καὶ ἐκεῖ τοί σε δεήσει ἕνα ἕκαστον πείθειν. ἦ γάρ; [¶223] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶224] Soc. And the same man may well persuade one person singly, and many together, about things that he knows, just as the schoolmaster, I suppose, persuades either one or many about letters? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τοῦ αὐτοῦ ἕνα τε οἷόν τε εἶναι κατὰ μόνας πείθειν καὶ συμπόλλους περὶ ὧν ἂν εἰδῇ, ὥσπερ ὁ γραμματιστὴς ἕνα τέ που πείθει περὶ γραμμάτων καὶ πολλούς; ## 2. 114c–125b Source: https://scriptura.si/works/plato-alcibiades-i/2/ · cite a paragraph as https://scriptura.si/works/plato-alcibiades-i/2/#p-N [¶0] 114c. Alc. Yes. > Greek: 114c. ΑΛ. ναί. [¶1] Soc. And again, will not the same man persuade either one or many about number? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ καὶ περὶ ἀριθμοῦ ὁ αὐτὸς ἕνα τε καὶ πολλοὺς πείσει; [¶2] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶3] Soc. And this will be the man who knows—the arithmetician? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὗτος δʼ ἔσται ὁ εἰδώς, ὁ ἀριθμητικός; [¶4] Alc. Quite so. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶5] Soc. And you too can persuade a single man about things of which you can persuade many? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ σὺ ἅπερ καὶ πολλοὺς οἷός τε πείθειν εἶ, ταῦτα καὶ ἕνα; [¶6] Alc. Presumably. > Greek: ΑΛ. εἰκός γε. [¶7] Soc. And these are clearly things that you know. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔστι δὲ ταῦτα δῆλον ὅτι ἃ οἶσθα. [¶8] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶9] Soc. And the only difference between the orator speaking before the people and one who speaks in a conversation like ours is that the former persuades men in a number together of the same things, and the latter persuades them one at a time? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἄλλο τι οὖν τοσοῦτον μόνον διαφέρει τοῦ ἐν τῷ δήμῳ ῥήτορος ὁ ἐν τῇ τοιᾷδε συνουσίᾳ, ὅτι ὁ μὲν ἁθρόους πείθει τὰ αὐτά, ὁ δὲ καθʼ ἕνα; [¶10] 114d. Alc. It looks like it. > Greek: 114d. ΑΛ. κινδυνεύει. [¶11] Soc. Come now, since we see that the same man may persuade either many or one, try your unpracticed hand on me, and endeavor to show that the just is sometimes not expedient. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἴθι νῦν, ἐπειδὴ τοῦ αὐτοῦ φαίνεται πολλούς τε καὶ ἕνα πείθειν, ἐν ἐμοὶ ἐμμελέτησον καὶ ἐπιχείρησον ἐπιδεῖξαι ὡς τὸ δίκαιον ἐνίοτε οὐ συμφέρει. [¶12] Alc. You are insolent, Socrates! > Greek: ΑΛ. ὑβριστὴς εἶ, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶13] Soc. This time, at any rate, I am going to have the insolence to persuade you of the opposite of that which you decline to prove to me. > Greek: ΣΩ. νῦν γοῦν ὑφʼ ὕβρεως μέλλω σε πείθειν τἀναντία οἷς σὺ ἐμὲ οὐκ ἐθέλεις. [¶14] Alc. Speak, then. > Greek: ΑΛ. λέγε δή. [¶15] Soc. Just answer my questions. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀποκρίνου μόνον τὰ ἐρωτώμενα. [¶16] 114e. Alc. No, you yourself must be the speaker. > Greek: 114e. ΑΛ. μή, ἀλλὰ σὺ αὐτὸς λέγε. [¶17] Soc. What? Do you not wish above all things to be persuaded? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δʼ; οὐχ ὅτι μάλιστα βούλει πεισθῆναι; [¶18] Alc. By all means, to be sure. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάντως δήπου. [¶19] Soc. And you would best be persuaded if you should say “the case is so”? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἰ λέγεις ὅτι ταῦθʼ οὕτως ἔχει, μάλιστʼ ἂν εἴης πεπεισμένος; [¶20] Alc. I agree. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. [¶21] Soc. Then answer; and if you do not hear your own self say that the just is expedient, put no trust in the words of anyone again. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀποκρίνου δή· καὶ ἐὰν μὴ αὐτὸς σὺ σαυτοῦ ἀκούσῃς ὅτι τὰ δίκαια καὶ συμφέροντά ἐστιν, ἄλλῳ γε λέγοντι μὴ πιστεύσῃς. [¶22] Alc. I will not: but I may as well answer; for I do not think I shall come to any harm. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὔτοι, ἀλλʼ ἀποκριτέον· καὶ γὰρ οὐδὲν οἴομαι βλαβήσεσθαι. [¶23] 115a. Soc. You are quite a prophet! Now tell me, do you consider some just things to be expedient, and others not? > Greek: 115a. ΣΩ. μαντικὸς γὰρ εἶ. καί μοι λέγε· τῶν δικαίων φῂς ἔνια μὲν συμφέρειν, ἔνια δʼ οὔ; [¶24] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶25] Soc. And again, some noble, and some not? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δέ; τὰ μὲν καλὰ αὐτῶν εἶναι, τὰ δʼ οὔ; [¶26] Alc. What do you mean by that question? > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς τοῦτο ἐρωτᾷς; [¶27] Soc. I would ask whether anyone ever seemed to you to be doing what was base and yet just. > Greek: ΣΩ. εἴ τις ἤδη σοι ἔδοξεν αἰσχρὰ μέν, δίκαια δὲ πράττειν; [¶28] Alc. Never. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐκ ἔμοιγε. [¶29] Soc. Well, are all just things noble? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ πάντα τὰ δίκαια καὶ καλά; [¶30] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶31] Soc. And what of noble things, in their turn? Are they all good, or some only, while others are not? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δʼ αὖ τὰ καλά; πότερον πάντα ἀγαθά, ἢ τὰ μέν, τὰ δʼ οὔ; [¶32] Alc. In my opinion, Socrates, some noble things are evil. > Greek: ΑΛ. οἴομαι ἔγωγε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔνια τῶν καλῶν κακὰ εἶναι. [¶33] Soc. And some base things are good? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἦ καὶ αἰσχρὰ ἀγαθά; [¶34] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶35] 115b. Soc. Do you mean as in one of the many cases where men have gone to rescue a comrade or kinsman in battle, and have been either wounded or killed, while those who did not go to the rescue, as duty bade, have got off safe and sound? > Greek: 115b. ΣΩ. ἆρα λέγεις τὰ τοιάδε, οἷον πολλοὶ ἐν πολέμῳ βοηθήσαντες ἑταίρῳ ἢ οἰκείῳ τραύματα ἔλαβον καὶ ἀπέθανον, οἱ δʼ οὐ βοηθήσαντες, δέον, ὑγιεῖς ἀπῆλθον; [¶36] Alc. Precisely. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. [¶37] Soc. And such a rescue you call noble, in respect of the endeavor to save those whom it was one’s duty to save; and this is courage, is it not? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τὴν τοιαύτην βοήθειαν καλὴν μὲν λέγεις κατὰ τὴν ἐπιχείρησιν τοῦ σῶσαι οὓς ἔδει, τοῦτο δʼ ἐστὶν ἀνδρεία· ἢ οὔ; [¶38] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶39] Soc. But you call it evil, in respect of the deaths and wounds? > Greek: ΣΩ. κακὴν δέ γε κατὰ τοὺς θανάτους τε καὶ ἕλκη· ἦ γάρ; [¶40] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶41] 115c. Soc. And is not the courage one thing, and the death another? > Greek: 115c. ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐκ ἄλλο μὲν ἡ ἀνδρεία, ἄλλο δὲ ὁ θάνατος; [¶42] Alc. Certainly. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶43] Soc. Then it is not in the same respect that rescuing one’s friends is noble and evil? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα κατὰ ταὐτόν γʼ ἐστι καλὸν καὶ κακὸν τὸ τοῖς φίλοις βοηθεῖν; [¶44] Alc. Apparently not. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ φαίνεται. [¶45] Soc. Then see if, inasmuch as it is noble, it is also good; for in the present case you were admitting that the rescue was noble in respect of its courage: now consider this very thing, courage, and say whether it is good or bad. Consider it in this way: which would you choose to have, good things or evil? > Greek: ΣΩ. ὅρα τοίνυν εἰ, ᾗ γε καλόν, καὶ ἀγαθόν, ὥσπερ καὶ ἐνταῦθα. κατὰ τὴν ἀνδρείαν γὰρ ὡμολόγεις καλὸν εἶναι τὴν βοήθειαν· τοῦτʼ οὖν αὐτὸ σκόπει, τὴν ἀνδρείαν, ἀγαθὸν ἢ κακόν; ὧδε δὲ σκόπει· σὺ πότερʼ ἂν δέξαιό σοι εἶναι, ἀγαθὰ ἢ κακά; [¶46] Alc. Good. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀγαθά. [¶47] 115d. Soc. And most of all, the greatest goods, and of such things you would least allow yourself to be deprived? Alc. To be sure. Soc. Then what do you say of courage? At what price would you allow yourself to be deprived of it? Alc. I would give up life itself if I had to be a coward. Soc. Then you regard cowardice as the uttermost evil. Alc. I do. Soc. On a par with death, it seems. Alc. Yes. Soc. And life and courage are the extreme opposites of death and cowardice? Alc. Yes. > Greek: 115d. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τὰ μέγιστα μάλιστα. ΑΛ. ⟨ναί.⟩ ΣΩ. καὶ ἥκιστα τῶν τοιούτων δέξαιο ἂν στέρεσθαι; ΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; ΣΩ. πῶς οὖν λέγεις περὶ ἀνδρείας; ἐπὶ πόσῳ ἂν αὐτοῦ δέξαιο στέρεσθαι; ΑΛ. οὐδὲ ζῆν ἂν ἐγὼ δεξαίμην δειλὸς ὤν. ΣΩ. ἔσχατον ἄρα κακῶν εἶναί σοι δοκεῖ ἡ δειλία. ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε. ΣΩ. ἐξ ἴσου τῷ τεθνάναι, ὡς ἔοικε. ΑΛ. φημί. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν θανάτῳ τε καὶ δειλίᾳ ἐναντιώτατον ζωὴ καὶ ἀνδρεία; ΑΛ. ναί. [¶48] 115e. Soc. And you would most desire to have the former, and least the latter? Alc. Yes. Soc. Is that because you think the former best, and the latter worst? Alc. To be sure. Soc. So you reckon courage among the best things, and death among the worst. Alc. I do. Soc. Then the rescue of one’s friends in battle, inasmuch as it is noble in respect of the working of good by courage, you have termed noble? Alc. Apparently. Soc. But evil, in respect of the working of evil by death? Alc. Yes. > Greek: 115e. ΣΩ. καὶ τὰ μὲν μάλιστʼ ἂν εἶναι βούλοιό σοι, τὰ δὲ ἥκιστα; ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. ἆρʼ ὅτι τὰ μὲν ἄριστα ἡγῇ, τὰ δὲ κάκιστα; ⟨ ΑΛ. πάνυ γε.⟩ ⟨ ΣΩ. ἐν τοῖς ἀρίστοις ἄρα σὺ ἡγῇ ἀνδρείαν εἶναι κἀν τοῖς κακίστοις θάνατον.⟩ ΑΛ. ἔγωγε. ΣΩ. τὸ ἄρα βοηθεῖν ἐν πολέμῳ τοῖς φίλοις, ᾗ μὲν καλόν, κατʼ ἀγαθοῦ πρᾶξιν τὴν τῆς ἀνδρείας, καλὸν αὐτὸ προσεῖπας; ΑΛ. φαίνομαί γε. ΣΩ. κατὰ δέ γε κακοῦ πρᾶξιν τὴν τοῦ θανάτου κακόν; ΑΛ. ναί. [¶49] 116. Soc. So we may fairly describe each of these workings as follows: as you call either of them evil because of the evil it produces, so you must call it good because of the good it produces. > Greek: 116. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ὧδε δίκαιον προσαγορεύειν ἑκάστην τῶν πράξεων· εἴπερ ᾗ κακὸν ἀπεργάζεται κακὴν καλεῖς, καὶ ᾗ ἀγαθὸν ἀγαθὴν κλητέον. [¶50] 116a. Alc. I believe that is so. > Greek: 116a. ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. [¶51] Soc. And again, are they noble inasmuch as they are good, and base inasmuch as they are evil? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν καὶ ᾗ ἀγαθόν, καλόν· ᾗ δὲ κακόν, αἰσχρόν; [¶52] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶53] Soc. Then in saying that the rescue of one’s friends in battle is noble and yet evil, you mean just the same as if you called the rescue good, but evil. > Greek: ΣΩ. τὴν ἄρʼ ἐν τῷ πολέμῳ τοῖς φίλοις βοήθειαν λέγων καλὴν μὲν εἶναι, κακὴν δέ, οὐδὲν διαφερόντως λέγεις ἢ εἰ προσεῖπες αὐτὴν ἀγαθὴν μέν, κακὴν δέ. [¶54] Alc. I believe what you say is true, Socrates. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ μοι δοκεῖς λέγειν, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶55] Soc. So nothing noble, in so far as it is noble, is evil, and nothing base, in so far as it is base, is good. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐδὲν ἄρα τῶν καλῶν, καθʼ ὅσον καλόν, κακόν, οὐδὲ τῶν αἰσχρῶν, καθʼ ὅσον αἰσχρόν, ἀγαθόν. [¶56] 116b. Alc. Apparently. > Greek: 116b. ΑΛ. οὐ φαίνεται. [¶57] Soc. Now then, consider it again in this way: whoever does nobly, does well too, does he not? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔτι τοίνυν καὶ ὧδε σκέψαι. ὅστις καλῶς πράττει, οὐχὶ καὶ εὖ πράττει; [¶58] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶59] Soc. And are not those who do well happy? > Greek: ΣΩ. οἱ δʼ εὖ πράττοντες οὐκ εὐδαίμονες; [¶60] Alc. Of course. > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; [¶61] Soc. And they are happy because of the acquisition of good things? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εὐδαίμονες διʼ ἀγαθῶν κτῆσιν; [¶62] Alc. Certainly. > Greek: ΑΛ. μάλιστα. [¶63] Soc. And they acquire these by doing well and nobly? > Greek: ΣΩ. κτῶνται δὲ ταῦτα τῷ εὖ καὶ καλῶς πράττειν; [¶64] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶65] Soc. So doing well is good? > Greek: ΣΩ. τὸ εὖ ἄρα πράττειν ἀγαθόν; [¶66] Alc. Of course. > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ; [¶67] Soc. And welfare is noble? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καλὸν ἡ εὐπραγία; [¶68] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶69] 116c. Soc. Hence we have seen again that noble and good are the same thing. > Greek: 116c. ΣΩ. ταὐτὸν ἄρα ἐφάνη ἡμῖν πάλιν αὖ καλόν τε καὶ ἀγαθόν. [¶70] Alc. Apparently. > Greek: ΑΛ. φαίνεται. [¶71] Soc. Then whatever we find to be noble we shall find also to be good, by this argument at least. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὅτι ἂν ἄρα εὕρωμεν καλόν, καὶ ἀγαθὸν εὑρήσομεν ἔκ γε τούτου τοῦ λόγου. [¶72] Alc. We must. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀνάγκη. [¶73] Soc. Well then, are good things expedient or not? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δέ; τὰ ἀγαθὰ συμφέρει ἢ οὔ; [¶74] Alc. Expedient. > Greek: ΑΛ. συμφέρει. [¶75] Soc. And do you remember what our admissions were about just things? > Greek: ΣΩ. μνημονεύεις οὖν περὶ τῶν δικαίων πῶς ὡμολογήσαμεν; [¶76] Alc. I think we said that those who do just things must do noble things. > Greek: ΑΛ. οἶμαί γε τοὺς τὰ δίκαια πράττοντας ἀναγκαῖον εἶναι καλὰ πράττειν. [¶77] Soc. And that those who do noble things must do good things? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ τοὺς τὰ καλὰ ἀγαθά; [¶78] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶79] 116d. Soc. And that good things are expedient? > Greek: 116d. ΣΩ. τὰ δὲ ἀγαθὰ συμφέρειν; [¶80] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶81] Soc. Hence just things, Alcibiades, are expedient. > Greek: ΣΩ. τὰ δίκαια ἄρα, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, συμφέροντά ἐστιν. [¶82] Alc. So it seems. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔοικεν. [¶83] Soc. Well now, are not you the speaker of all this, and I the questioner? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν; ταῦτα οὐ σὺ ὁ λέγων, ἐγὼ δὲ ὁ ἐρωτῶν; [¶84] Alc. I seem to be, apparently. > Greek: ΑΛ. φαίνομαι, ὡς ἔοικα. [¶85] Soc. So if anyone stands up to advise either the Athenians or the Peparethians, imagining that he understands what is just and unjust, and says that just things are sometimes evil, could you do other than laugh him to scorn, since you actually say yourself that just and expedient are the same? > Greek: ΣΩ. εἰ οὖν τις ἀνίσταται συμβουλεύσων εἴτε Ἀθηναίοις εἴτε Πεπαρηθίοις, οἰόμενος γιγνώσκειν τὰ δίκαια καὶ τὰ ἄδικα, φήσει δʼ εἶναι τὰ δίκαια κακὰ ἐνίοτε, ἄλλο τι ἢ καταγελῴης ἂν αὐτοῦ, ἐπειδήπερ τυγχάνεις καὶ σὺ λέγων ὅτι ταὐτά ἐστι δίκαιά τε καὶ συμφέροντα; [¶86] 116e. Alc. But by Heaven, Socrates, I do not even know what I am saying, I feel altogether in such a strange state! For from moment to moment I change my view under your questioning. > Greek: 116e. ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ μὰ τοὺς θεούς, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐκ οἶδʼ ἔγωγε οὐδʼ ὅτι λέγω, ἀλλʼ ἀτεχνῶς ἔοικα ἀτόπως ἔχοντι· τοτὲ μὲν γάρ μοι ἕτερα δοκεῖ σοῦ ἐρωτῶντος, τοτὲ δʼ ἄλλα. [¶87] Soc. And are you unaware, my friend, what this feeling is? > Greek: ΣΩ. εἶτα τοῦτο, ὦ φίλε, ἀγνοεῖς τὸ πάθημα τί ἐστιν; [¶88] Alc. I am, quite. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶89] Soc. Well, do you suppose that if someone should ask you whether you have two eyes or three, two hands or four, or anything else of that sort, you would answer differently from moment to moment, or always the same thing? > Greek: ΣΩ. οἴει ἂν οὖν, εἴ τις ἐρωτῴη σε δύο ὀφθαλμοὺς ἢ τρεῖς ἔχεις, καὶ δύο χεῖρας ἢ τέτταρας, ἢ ἄλλο τι τῶν τοιούτων, τοτὲ μὲν ἕτερα ἂν ἀποκρίνασθαι, τοτὲ δὲ ἄλλα, ἢ ἀεὶ τὰ αὐτά; [¶90] 117a. Alc. I begin to have misgivings about myself, but still I think I should make the same answer. > Greek: 117a. ΑΛ. δέδοικα μὲν ἔγωγε ἤδη περὶ ἐμαυτοῦ, οἶμαι μέντοι τὰ αὐτά. [¶91] Soc. And the reason would be, because you know? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ὅτι οἶσθα; τοῦτʼ αἴτιον; [¶92] Alc. I think so. > Greek: ΑΛ. οἶμαι ἔγωγε. [¶93] Soc. Then if you involuntarily give contradictory answers, clearly it must be about things of which you are ignorant. > Greek: ΣΩ. περὶ ὧν ἄρα ἄκων τἀναντία ἀποκρίνῃ, δῆλον ὅτι περὶ τούτων οὐκ οἶσθα. [¶94] Alc. Very likely. > Greek: ΑΛ. εἰκός γε. [¶95] Soc. And you say you are bewildered in answering about just and unjust, noble and base, evil and good, expedient and inexpedient? Now, is it not obvious that your bewilderment is caused by your ignorance of these things? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ περὶ τῶν δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων καὶ καλῶν καὶ αἰσχρῶν καὶ κακῶν καὶ ἀγαθῶν καὶ συμφερόντων καὶ μὴ ἀποκρινόμενος φῂς πλανᾶσθαι; εἶτα οὐ δῆλον ὅτι διὰ τὸ μὴ εἰδέναι περὶ αὐτῶν, διὰ ταῦτα πλανᾷ; [¶96] 117b. Alc. I agree. > Greek: 117b. ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε. [¶97] Soc. Then is it the case that when a man does not know a thing he must needs be bewildered in spirit regarding that thing? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὕτω καὶ ἔχει· ἐπειδάν τίς τι μὴ εἰδῇ, ἀναγκαῖον περὶ τούτου πλανᾶσθαι τὴν ψυχήν; [¶98] Alc. Yes, of course. > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; [¶99] Soc. Well now, do you know in what way you can ascend to heaven? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν; οἶσθα ὅντινα τρόπον ἀναβήσῃ εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν; [¶100] Alc. On my word, not I. > Greek: ΑΛ. μὰ Δίʼ οὐκ ἔγωγε. [¶101] Soc. Is that too a kind of question about which your judgement is bewildered? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἦ καὶ πλανᾶταί σου ἡ δόξα περὶ ταῦτα; [¶102] Alc. No, indeed. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶103] Soc. Do you know the reason, or shall I state it? > Greek: ΣΩ. τὸ δʼ αἴτιον οἶσθα ἢ ἐγὼ φράσω; [¶104] Alc. State it. > Greek: ΑΛ. φράσον. [¶105] Soc. It is, my friend, that while not knowing the matter you do not suppose that you know it. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὅτι, ὦ φίλε, οὐκ οἴει αὐτὸ ἐπίστασθαι οὐκ ἐπιστάμενος. [¶106] 117c. Alc. Here again, how do you mean? > Greek: 117c. ΑΛ. πῶς αὖ τοῦτο λέγεις; [¶107] Soc. Do your share, in seeing for yourself. Are you bewildered about the kind of thing that you do not know and are aware of not knowing? For instance, you know, I suppose, that you do not know about the preparation of a tasty dish? > Greek: ΣΩ. ὅρα καὶ σὺ κοινῇ. ἃ μὴ ἐπίστασαι, γιγνώσκεις δὲ ὅτι οὐκ ἐπίστασαι, πλανᾷ περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα; ὥσπερ περὶ ὄψου σκευασίας οἶσθα δήπου ὅτι οὐκ οἶσθα; [¶108] Alc. Quite so. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶109] Soc. Then do you think for yourself how you are to prepare it, and get bewildered, or do you entrust it to the person who knows? > Greek: ΣΩ. πότερον οὖν αὐτὸς περὶ ταῦτα δοξάζεις ὅπως χρὴ σκευάζειν καὶ πλανᾷ, ἢ τῷ ἐπισταμένῳ ἐπιτρέπεις; [¶110] Alc. I do the latter. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὕτως. [¶111] Soc. And what if you should be on a ship at sea? Would you think whether the tiller should be moved inwards or outwards, and in your ignorance bewilder yourself, or would you entrust it to the helmsman, and be quiet? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δʼ εἰ ἐν νηῒ πλέοις, ἆρα δοξάζοις ἂν πότερον χρὴ τὸν οἴακα εἴσω ἄγειν ἢ ἔξω, καὶ ἅτε οὐκ εἰδὼς πλανῷο ἄν, ἢ τῷ κυβερνήτῃ ἐπιτρέψας ἂν ἡσυχίαν ἄγοις; [¶112] 117d. Alc. I would leave it to him. Soc. So you are not bewildered about what you do not know, so long as you know that you do not know? Alc. It seems I am not, Soc. Then do you note that mistakes in action also are due to this ignorance of thinking one knows when one does not? Alc. Here again, how do you mean? Soc. We set about acting, I suppose, when we think we know what we are doing? > Greek: 117d. ΑΛ. τῷ κυβερνήτῃ. ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα περὶ ἃ μὴ οἶσθα πλανᾷ, ἄνπερ εἰδῇς ὅτι οὐκ οἶσθα; ΑΛ. οὐκ ἔοικα. ΣΩ. ἐννοεῖς οὖν ὅτι καὶ τὰ ἁμαρτήματα ἐν τῇ πράξει διὰ ταύτην τὴν ἄγνοιάν ἐστι, τὴν τοῦ μὴ εἰδότα οἴεσθαι εἰδέναι; ΑΛ. πῶς αὖ λέγεις τοῦτο; ΣΩ. τότε που ἐπιχειροῦμεν πράττειν, ὅταν οἰώμεθα εἰδέναι ὅτι πράττομεν; ΑΛ. ναί. [¶113] 117e. Alc. Yes. Soc. But when people think they do not know, I suppose they hand it over to others? Alc. To be sure. Soc. And so that kind of ignorant person makes no mistakes in life, because they entrust such matters to others? Alc. Yes. Soc. Who then are those who make mistakes? For, I take it, they cannot be those who know. Alc. No, indeed. > Greek: 117e. ΣΩ. ὅταν δέ γέ πού τινες μὴ οἴωνται εἰδέναι, ἄλλοις παραδιδόασι; ΑΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ; ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν οἱ τοιοῦτοι τῶν μὴ εἰδότων ἀναμάρτητοι ζῶσι διὰ τὸ ἄλλοις περὶ αὐτῶν ἐπιτρέπειν; ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. τίνες οὖν οἱ ἁμαρτάνοντες; οὐ γάρ που οἵ γε εἰδότες. ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶114] 118. Soc. But since it is neither those who know, nor those of the ignorant who know that they do not know, the only people left, I think, are those who do not know, but think that they do? > Greek: 118. ΣΩ. ἐπειδὴ δʼ οὔθʼ οἱ εἰδότες οὔθʼ οἱ τῶν μὴ εἰδότων εἰδότες ὅτι οὐκ ἴσασιν, ἦ ἄλλοι λείπονται ἢ οἱ μὴ εἰδότες, οἰόμενοι δʼ εἰδέναι; [¶115] 118a. Alc. Yes, only those. > Greek: 118a. ΑΛ. οὔκ, ἀλλʼ οὗτοι. [¶116] Soc. Then this ignorance is a cause of evils, and is the discreditable sort of stupidity? > Greek: ΣΩ. αὕτη ἄρα ἡ ἄγνοια τῶν κακῶν αἰτία καὶ ἡ ἐπονείδιστος ἀμαθία; [¶117] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶118] Soc. And when it is about the greatest matters, it is most injurious and base? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ὅταν ᾖ περὶ τὰ μέγιστα, τότε κακουργοτάτη καὶ αἰσχίστη; [¶119] Alc. By far. > Greek: ΑΛ. πολύ γε. [¶120] Soc. Well then, can you mention any greater things than the just, the noble, the good, and the expedient? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν; ἔχεις μείζω εἰπεῖν δικαίων τε καὶ καλῶν καὶ ἀγαθῶν καὶ συμφερόντων; [¶121] Alc. No, indeed. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶122] Soc. And it is about these, you say, that you are bewildered? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν περὶ ταῦτα σὺ φῂς πλανᾶσθαι; [¶123] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶124] Soc. But if you are bewildered, is it not clear from what has gone before that you are not only ignorant of the greatest things, but while not knowing them you think that you do? > Greek: ΣΩ. εἰ δὲ πλανᾷ, ἆρʼ οὐ δῆλον ἐκ τῶν ἔμπροσθεν ὅτι οὐ μόνον ἀγνοεῖς τὰ μέγιστα, ἀλλὰ καὶ οὐκ εἰδὼς οἴει αὐτὰ εἰδέναι; [¶125] 118b. Alc. I am afraid so. > Greek: 118b. ΑΛ. κινδυνεύω. [¶126] Soc. Alack then, Alcibiades, for the plight you are in! I shrink indeed from giving it a name, but still, as we are alone, let me speak out. You are wedded to stupidity, my fine friend, of the vilest kind; you are impeached of this by your own words, out of your own mouth; and this, it seems, is why you dash into politics before you have been educated. And you are not alone in this plight, but you share it with most of those who manage our city’s affairs, except just a few, and perhaps your guardian, Pericles. > Greek: ΣΩ. βαβαῖ ἄρα, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, οἷον πάθος πέπονθας· ὃ ἐγὼ ὀνομάζειν μὲν ὀκνῶ, ὅμως δέ, ἐπειδὴ μόνω ἐσμέν, ῥητέον. ἀμαθίᾳ γὰρ συνοικεῖς, ὦ βέλτιστε, τῇ ἐσχάτῃ, ὡς ὁ λόγος σου κατηγορεῖ καὶ σὺ σαυτοῦ· διὸ καὶ ᾁττεις ἄρα πρὸς τὰ πολιτικὰ πρὶν παιδευθῆναι. πέπονθας δὲ τοῦτο οὐ σὺ μόνος, ἀλλὰ καὶ οἱ πολλοὶ τῶν πραττόντων τὰ τῆσδε τῆς πόλεως, πλὴν ὀλίγων γε καὶ ἴσως τοῦ σοῦ ἐπιτρόπου Περικλέους. [¶127] 118c. Alc. Yes, you know, Socrates, they say he did not get his wisdom independently, but consorted with many wise men, such as Pythocleides and Anaxagoras; and now, old as he is, he still confers with Damon for that very purpose. > Greek: 118c. ΑΛ. λέγεταί γέ τοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐκ ἀπὸ τοῦ αὐτομάτου σοφὸς γεγονέναι, ἀλλὰ πολλοῖς καὶ σοφοῖς συγγεγονέναι, καὶ Πυθοκλείδῃ καὶ Ἀναξαγόρᾳ· καὶ νῦν ἔτι τηλικοῦτος ὢν Δάμωνι σύνεστιν αὐτοῦ τούτου ἕνεκα. [¶128] Soc. Well, but did you ever find a man who was wise in anything and yet unable to make another man wise in the same things as himself? For instance, the man who taught you letters was wise himself, and also made you wise, and anyone else he wished to, did he not? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν; ἤδη τινʼ εἶδες σοφὸν ὁτιοῦν ἀδυνατοῦντα ποιῆσαι ἄλλον σοφὸν ἅπερ αὐτός; ὥσπερ ὅς σε ἐδίδαξεν γράμματα, αὐτός τʼ ἦν σοφὸς καὶ σὲ ἐποίησε τῶν τε ἄλλων ὅντινʼ ἐβούλετο· ἦ γάρ; [¶129] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶130] 118d. Soc. And you too, who learnt from him, will be able to make another man wise? > Greek: 118d. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ σὺ ὁ παρʼ ἐκείνου μαθὼν ἄλλον οἷός τε ἔσῃ; [¶131] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶132] Soc. And the same holds of the harper and the trainer? > Greek: ΣΩ. καὶ ὁ κιθαριστὴς δὲ καὶ ὁ παιδοτρίβης ὡσαύτως; [¶133] Alc. Certainly. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶134] Soc. For, I presume, it is a fine proof of one’s knowing anything that one knows, when one is able to point to another man whom one has made to know it. > Greek: ΣΩ. καλὸν γὰρ δήπου τεκμήριον τοῦτο τῶν ἐπισταμένων ὁτιοῦν ὅτι ἐπίστανται, ἐπειδὰν καὶ ἄλλον οἷοί τʼ ὦσιν ἀποδεῖξαι ἐπιστάμενον. [¶135] Alc. I agree. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. [¶136] Soc. Well then, can you tell me whom Pericles made wise? One of his sons, to begin with? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν; ἔχεις εἰπεῖν Περικλῆς τίνα ἐποίησεν σοφόν, ἀπὸ τῶν ὑέων ἀρξάμενος; [¶137] 118e. Alc. But what if the two sons of Pericles were simpletons, Socrates? > Greek: 118e. ΑΛ. τί δʼ εἰ τὼ Περικλέους ὑεῖ ἠλιθίω ἐγενέσθην, ὦ Σώκρατες; [¶138] Soc. Well, Cleinias, your brother. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ Κλεινίαν τὸν σὸν ἀδελφόν. [¶139] Alc. But why should you mention Cleinias, a madman? > Greek: ΑΛ. τί δʼ ἂν αὖ Κλεινίαν λέγοις, μαινόμενον ἄνθρωπον; [¶140] Soc. Well, if Cleinias is mad and the two sons of Pericles were simpletons, what reason are we to assign, in your case, for his allowing you to be in your present condition? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἐπειδὴ τοίνυν Κλεινίας μὲν μαίνεται, τὼ δὲ Περικλέους ὑεῖ ἠλιθίω ἐγενέσθην, σοὶ τίνα αἰτίαν ἀναθῶμεν, διʼ ὅτι σε οὕτως ἔχοντα περιορᾷ; [¶141] Alc. I believe I am myself to blame for not attending to him. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἐγὼ οἶμαι αἴτιος οὐ προσέχων τὸν νοῦν. [¶142] 119a. Soc. But tell me of any other Athenian or foreigner, slave or freeman, who is accounted to have become wiser through converse with Pericles; as I can tell you that Pythodorus son of Isolochus, and Callias, son of Calliades, became through that of Zeno; each of them has paid Zeno a hundred minae, and has become both wise and distinguished. > Greek: 119a. ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ τῶν ἄλλων Ἀθηναίων ἢ τῶν ξένων δοῦλον ἢ ἐλεύθερον εἰπὲ ὅστις αἰτίαν ἔχει διὰ τὴν Περικλέους συνουσίαν σοφώτερος γεγονέναι, ὥσπερ ἐγὼ ἔχω σοι εἰπεῖν διὰ τὴν Ζήνωνος Πυθόδωρον τὸν Ἰσολόχου καὶ Καλλίαν τὸν Καλλιάδου, ὧν ἑκάτερος Ζήνωνι ἑκατὸν μνᾶς τελέσας σοφός τε καὶ ἐλλόγιμος γέγονεν. [¶143] Alc. Well, upon my word, I cannot. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ μὰ Δίʼ οὐκ ἔχω. [¶144] Soc. Very good: then what is your intention regarding yourself? Will you remain as you are, or take some trouble? > Greek: ΣΩ. εἶεν· τί οὖν διανοῇ περὶ σαυτοῦ; πότερον ἐᾶν ὡς νῦν ἔχεις, ἢ ἐπιμέλειάν τινα ποιεῖσθαι; [¶145] 119b. Alc. We must put our heads together, Socrates. And indeed, as soon as you speak, I take the point and agree. For the men who manage the city’s affairs, apart from a few, do strike me as uneducated. > Greek: 119b. ΑΛ. κοινὴ βουλή, ὦ Σώκρατες. καίτοι ἐννοῶ σου εἰπόντος καὶ συγχωρῶ· δοκοῦσι γάρ μοι οἱ τὰ τῆς πόλεως πράττοντες ἐκτὸς ὀλίγων ἀπαίδευτοι εἶναι. [¶146] Soc. Then what does that mean? > Greek: ΣΩ. εἶτα τί δὴ τοῦτο; [¶147] Alc. That if they were educated, I suppose anyone who undertook to contend against them would have to get some knowledge and practice first, as he would for a match with athletes: but now, seeing that these men have gone in for politics as amateurs, what need is there for me to practise and have the trouble of learning? > Greek: ΑΛ. εἰ μέν που ἦσαν πεπαιδευμένοι, ἔδει ἂν τὸν ἐπιχειροῦντα αὐτοῖς ἀνταγωνίζεσθαι μαθόντα καὶ ἀσκήσαντα ἰέναι ὡς ἐπʼ ἀθλητάς· νῦν δʼ ἐπειδὴ καὶ οὗτοι ἰδιωτικῶς ἔχοντες ἐληλύθασιν ἐπὶ τὰ τῆς πόλεως, τί δεῖ ἀσκεῖν καὶ μανθάνοντα πράγματα ἔχειν; ἐγὼ γὰρ εὖ οἶδʼ ὅτι τούτων τῇ γε φύσει πάνυ πολὺ περιέσομαι. [¶148] 119c. For I am sure that my natural powers alone will give me an easy victory over them. Soc. Ho, ho, my good sir, what a thing to say! How unworthy of your looks and your other advantages! Alc. What is your meaning now, Socrates? What is the connection? Soc. I am grieved for you, and for my love. Alc. Why, pray? Soc. That you should expect your contest to be with the men we have here. Alc. Well, but with whom is it to be? Soc. Is that a worthy question to be asked by a man who considers himself high-spirited? > Greek: 119c. ΣΩ. βαβαῖ, οἷον, ὦ ἄριστε, τοῦτʼ εἴρηκας· ὡς ἀνάξιον τῆς ἰδέας καὶ τῶν ἄλλων τῶν σοι ὑπαρχόντων. ΑΛ. τί μάλιστα καὶ πρὸς τί τοῦτο λέγεις, ὦ Σώκρατες; ΣΩ. ἀγανακτῶ ὑπέρ τε σοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἐμαυτοῦ ἔρωτος. ΑΛ. τί δή; ΣΩ. εἰ ἠξίωσας τὸν ἀγῶνά σοι εἶναι πρὸς τοὺς ἐνθάδε ἀνθρώπους. ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ πρὸς τίνας μήν; [¶149] 119d. Alc. How do you mean? Is not my contest with these men? Soc. Well, suppose you were intending to steer a warship into action, would you be content to be the best hand among the crew at steering or, while regarding this skill as a necessary qualification, would you keep your eye on your actual opponents in the fight, and not, as now, on your fellow-fighters? These, I conceive, you ought so far to surpass that they would not feel fit to be your opponents, but only to be your despised fellow-fighters against the enemy, if you mean really to make your mark with some noble action that will be worthy both of yourself and of the city. > Greek: 119d. ΣΩ. ἄξιον τοῦτό γε καὶ ἐρέσθαι ἄνδρα οἰόμενον μεγαλόφρονα εἶναι. ΑΛ. πῶς λέγεις; οὐ πρὸς τούτους μοι ὁ ἀγών; ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ κἂν εἰ τριήρη διενοοῦ κυβερνᾶν μέλλουσαν ναυμαχεῖν, ἤρκει ἄν σοι τῶν συνναυτῶν βελτίστῳ εἶναι τὰ κυβερνητικά, ἢ ταῦτα μὲν ᾤου ἂν δεῖν ὑπάρχειν, ἀπέβλεπες δʼ ἂν εἰς τοὺς ὡς ἀληθῶς ἀνταγωνιστάς, ἀλλʼ οὐχ ὡς νῦν εἰς τοὺς συναγωνιστάς; ὧν δήπου περιγενέσθαι σε δεῖ τοσοῦτον ὥστε μὴ ἀξιοῦν ἀνταγωνίζεσθαι, ἀλλὰ καταφρονηθέντας συναγωνίζεσθαί σοι πρὸς τοὺς πολεμίους, εἰ δὴ τῷ ὄντι γε καλόν τι ἔργον ἀποδείξασθαι διανοῇ καὶ ἄξιον σαυτοῦ τε καὶ τῆς πόλεως. [¶150] 119e. Alc. Why, I do mean to. > Greek: 119e. ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ μὲν δὴ διανοοῦμαί γε. [¶151] Soc. So you think it quite fitting for you to be satisfied if you are better than the soldiers, but neglect to keep your eye on the enemy’s leaders with a view to showing yourself better than they are, or to plan and practise against them! > Greek: ΣΩ. πάνυ σοι ἄρα ἄξιον ἀγαπᾶν εἰ τῶν στρατιωτῶν βελτίων εἶ, ἀλλʼ οὐ πρὸς τοὺς τῶν ἀντιπάλων ἡγεμόνας ἀποβλέπειν εἴ ποτε ἐκείνων βελτίων γέγονας, σκοποῦντα καὶ ἀσκοῦντα πρὸς ἐκείνους. [¶152] 120a. Alc. Of whom are you speaking now, Socrates? > Greek: 120a. ΑΛ. λέγεις δὲ τίνας τούτους, ὦ Σώκρατες; [¶153] Soc. Do you not know that our city makes war occasionally on the Spartans and on the Great King? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκ οἶσθα ἡμῶν τὴν πόλιν Λακεδαιμονίοις τε καὶ τῷ μεγάλῳ βασιλεῖ πολεμοῦσαν ἑκάστοτε; [¶154] Alc. That is true. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. [¶155] Soc. And if you are minded to be the head of our state, you would be right in thinking that your contest is with the kings of Sparta and of Persia? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἴπερ ἐν νῷ ἔχεις ἡγεμὼν εἶναι τῆσδε τῆς πόλεως, πρὸς τοὺς Λακεδαιμονίων βασιλέας καὶ τοὺς Περσῶν τὸν ἀγῶνα ἡγούμενός σοι εἶναι ὀρθῶς ἂν ἡγοῖο; [¶156] Alc. That sounds like the truth. > Greek: ΑΛ. κινδυνεύεις ἀληθῆ λέγειν. [¶157] Soc. No, my good friend; you ought rather to keep your eye on Meidias the quail-filliper and others of his sort—who undertake to manage the city’s affairs, while they still have the slavish hair (as the women would say) showing in their minds through their lack of culture, and have not yet got rid of it; who, moreover, have come with their outlandish speech to flatter the state, not to rule it—to these, I tell you, should your eyes be turned; and then you can disregard yourself, and need neither learn what is to be learnt for the great contest in which you are to be engaged, nor practise > Greek: ΣΩ. οὔκ, ὠγαθέ, ἀλλὰ πρὸς Μειδίαν σε δεῖ τὸν ὀρτυγοκόπον ἀποβλέπειν καὶ ἄλλους τοιούτους—οἳ τὰ τῆς πόλεως πράττειν ἐπιχειροῦσιν, ἔτι τὴν ἀνδραποδώδη, φαῖεν ἂν αἱ γυναῖκες, τρίχα ἔχοντες ἐν τῇ ψυχῇ ὑπʼ ἀμουσίας καὶ οὔπω ἀποβεβληκότες, ἔτι δὲ βαρβαρίζοντες ἐληλύθασι κολακεύσοντες τὴν πόλιν ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἄρξοντες—πρὸς τούτους σε δεῖ, οὕσπερ λέγω, βλέποντα σαυτοῦ δὴ ἀμελεῖν, καὶ μήτε μανθάνειν ὅσα μαθήσεως ἔχεται, μέλλοντα τοσοῦτον ἀγῶνα ἀγωνίζεσθαι, μήτε ἀσκεῖν ὅσα δεῖται ἀσκήσεως, [¶158] 120c. what requires practice, and so ensure that you are perfectly prepared before entering upon a political career. > Greek: 120c. καὶ πᾶσαν παρασκευὴν παρεσκευασμένον οὕτως ἰέναι ἐπὶ τὰ τῆς πόλεως. [¶159] Alc. Why, Socrates, I believe you are right; though I think neither the Spartan generals nor the Persian king are at all different from other people. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ Σώκρατες, δοκεῖς μέν μοι ἀληθῆ λέγειν, οἶμαι μέντοι τούς τε Λακεδαιμονίων στρατηγοὺς καὶ τὸν Περσῶν βασιλέα οὐδὲν διαφέρειν τῶν ἄλλων. [¶160] Soc. But, my excellent friend, consider what this notion of yours means. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ ἄριστε, τὴν οἴησιν ταύτην σκόπει οἵαν ἔχεις. [¶161] Alc. In regard to what? > Greek: ΑΛ. τοῦ πέρι; [¶162] Soc. First of all, do you think you would take more pains over yourself if you feared them and thought them terrible, or if you did not? > Greek: ΣΩ. πρῶτον μὲν ποτέρως ἂν οἴει σαυτοῦ μᾶλλον ἐπιμεληθῆναι, φοβούμενός τε καὶ οἰόμενος δεινοὺς αὐτοὺς εἶναι, ἢ μή; [¶163] 120d. Alc. Clearly, if I thought them terrible. > Greek: 120d. ΑΛ. δῆλον ὅτι εἰ δεινοὺς οἰοίμην. [¶164] Soc. And do you think you will come to any harm by taking pains over yourself? > Greek: ΣΩ. μῶν οὖν οἴει τι βλαβήσεσθαι ἐπιμεληθεὶς σαυτοῦ; [¶165] Alc. By no means; rather that I shall get much benefit. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐδαμῶς, ἀλλὰ καὶ μεγάλα ὀνήσεσθαι. [¶166] Soc. And on this single count that notion of yours is so much to the bad. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἓν μὲν τοῦτο τοσοῦτον κακὸν ἔχει ἡ οἴησις αὕτη. [¶167] Alc. True. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. [¶168] Soc. Then, in the second place, observe the probability that it is false. > Greek: ΣΩ. τὸ δεύτερον τοίνυν, ὅτι καὶ ψευδής ἐστιν, ἐκ τῶν εἰκότων σκέψαι. [¶169] Alc. How so? > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς δή; [¶170] Soc. Is it probable that noble races should produce better natures, or not? > Greek: ΣΩ. πότερον εἰκὸς ἀμείνους γίγνεσθαι φύσεις ἐν γενναίοις γένεσιν ἢ μή; [¶171] 120e. Alc. Clearly, noble races would. > Greek: 120e. ΑΛ. δῆλον ὅτι ἐν τοῖς γενναίοις. [¶172] Soc. And will not the well-born, provided they are well brought up, probably be perfected in virtue? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τοὺς εὖ φύντας, ἐὰν καὶ εὖ τραφῶσιν, οὕτω τελέους γίγνεσθαι πρὸς ἀρετήν; [¶173] Alc. That must be so. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀνάγκη. [¶174] Soc. Then let us consider, by comparing our lot with theirs, whether the Spartan and Persian kings appear to be of inferior birth. Do we not know that the former are descendants of Hercules and the latter of Achaemenes, and that the line of Hercules and the line of Achaemenes go back to Perseus, son of Zeus? > Greek: ΣΩ. σκεψώμεθα δή, τοῖς ἐκείνων τὰ ἡμέτερα ἀντιτιθέντες, πρῶτον μὲν εἰ δοκοῦσι φαυλοτέρων γενῶν εἶναι οἱ Λακεδαιμονίων καὶ Περσῶν βασιλῆς. ἢ οὐκ ἴσμεν ὡς οἱ μὲν Ἡρακλέους, οἱ δὲ Ἀχαιμένους ἔκγονοι, τὸ δʼ Ἡρακλέους τε γένος καὶ τὸ Ἀχαιμένους εἰς Περσέα τὸν Διὸς ἀναφέρεται; [¶175] 121a. Alc. Yes, and mine, Socrates, to Eurysaces, and that of Eurysaces to Zeus! > Greek: 121a. ΑΛ. καὶ γὰρ τὸ ἡμέτερον, ὦ Σώκρατες, εἰς Εὐρυσάκη, τὸ δʼ Εὐρυσάκους εἰς Δία. [¶176] Soc. Yes, and mine, noble Alcibiades, to Daedalus, and Daedalus to Hephaestus, son of Zeus! But take the lines of those people, going back from them: you have a succession of kings reaching to Zeus—on the one hand, kings of Argos and Sparta; on the other, of Persia, which they have always ruled, and frequently Asia also, as at present; whereas we are private persons ourselves, and so were our fathers. And then, suppose that you had to make what show you could of your ancestors, and of Salamis as the native land of Eurysaces, or of Aegina as the home of the yet earlier Aeacus, to impress Artaxerxes, son of Xerxes, how you must expect to be laughed at! > Greek: ΣΩ. καὶ γὰρ τὸ ἡμέτερον, ὦ γενναῖε Ἀλκιβιάδη, εἰς Δαίδαλον, ὁ δὲ Δαίδαλος εἰς Ἥφαιστον τὸν Διός. ἀλλὰ τὰ μὲν τούτων ἀπʼ αὐτῶν ἀρξάμενα βασιλῆς εἰσιν ἐκ βασιλέων μέχρι Διός, οἱ μὲν Ἄργους τε καὶ Λακεδαίμονος, οἱ δὲ τῆς Περσίδος τὸ ἀεί, πολλάκις δὲ καὶ τῆς Ἀσίας, ὥσπερ καὶ νῦν· ἡμεῖς δὲ αὐτοί τε ἰδιῶται καὶ οἱ πατέρες. [¶177] 121b. Why, I am afraid we are quite outdone by those persons in pride of birth and upbringing altogether. Or have you not observed how great are the advantages of the Spartan kings, and how their wives are kept under statutory ward of the ephors, in order that every possible precaution may be taken against the king being born of any but the Heracleidae? > Greek: 121b. εἰ δὲ καὶ τοὺς προγόνους σε δέοι καὶ τὴν πατρίδα Εὐρυσάκους ἐπιδεῖξαι Σαλαμῖνα ἢ τὴν Αἰακοῦ τοῦ ἔτι προτέρου Αἴγιναν Ἀρτοξέρξῃ τῷ Ξέρξου, πόσον ἂν οἴει γέλωτα ὀφλεῖν; ἀλλʼ ὅρα μὴ τοῦ τε γένους ὄγκῳ ἐλαττώμεθα τῶν ἀνδρῶν καὶ τῇ ἄλλῃ τροφῇ. ἢ οὐκ ᾔσθησαι τοῖς τε Λακεδαιμονίων βασιλεῦσιν ὡς μεγάλα τὰ ὑπάρχοντα, ὧν αἱ γυναῖκες δημοσίᾳ φυλάττονται ὑπὸ τῶν ἐφόρων, ὅπως εἰς δύναμιν μὴ λάθῃ ἐξ ἄλλου γενόμενος ὁ βασιλεὺς ἢ ἐξ Ἡρακλειδῶν; [¶178] 121c. And the Persian king so far surpasses us that no one has a suspicion that he could have been born of anybody but the king before him; and hence the king’s wife has nothing to guard her except fear. When the eldest son, the heir to the throne, is born, first of all the king’s subjects who are in his palace have a feast, and then for ever after on that date the whole of Asia celebrates the king’s birthday with sacrifice and feasting: but when we are born, as the comic poet says, even the neighbors barely notice it, Alcibiades. > Greek: 121c. ὁ δὲ Περσῶν τοσοῦτον ὑπερβάλλει, ὥστʼ οὐδεὶς ὑποψίαν ἔχει ὡς ἐξ ἄλλου ἂν βασιλεὺς γένοιτο ἢ ἐξ αὐτοῦ· διὸ οὐ φρουρεῖται ἡ βασιλέως γυνὴ ἀλλʼ ἢ ὑπὸ φόβου. ἐπειδὰν δὲ γένηται ὁ παῖς ὁ πρεσβύτατος, οὗπερ ἡ ἀρχή, πρῶτον μὲν ἑορτάζουσι πάντες οἱ ἐν τῇ βασιλέως, ὧν ἂν ἄρχῃ, εἶτα εἰς τὸν ἄλλον χρόνον ταύτῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ βασιλέως γενέθλια πᾶσα θύει καὶ ἑορτάζει ἡ Ἀσία· ἡμῶν δὲ γενομένων, τὸ τοῦ κωμῳδοποιοῦ, οὐδʼ οἱ γείτονες σφόδρα τι αἰσθάνονται, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη. [¶179] 121d. After that comes the nurture of the child, not at the hands of a woman-nurse of little worth, but of the most highly approved eunuchs in the king’s service, who are charged with the whole tendance of the new-born child, and especially with the business of making him as handsome as possible by moulding his limbs into a correct shape; and while doing this they are in high honor. > Greek: 121d. μετὰ τοῦτο τρέφεται ὁ παῖς, οὐχ ὑπὸ γυναικὸς τροφοῦ ὀλίγου ἀξίας, ἀλλʼ ὑπʼ εὐνούχων οἳ ἂν δοκῶσιν τῶν περὶ βασιλέα ἄριστοι εἶναι· οἷς τά τε ἄλλα προστέτακται ἐπιμέλεσθαι τοῦ γενομένου, καὶ ὅπως ὅτι κάλλιστος ἔσται μηχανᾶσθαι, ἀναπλάττοντας τὰ μέλη τοῦ παιδὸς καὶ κατορθοῦντας· καὶ ταῦτα δρῶντες ἐν μεγάλῃ τιμῇ εἰσιν. [¶180] 121e. When the boys are seven years old they are given horses and have riding lessons, and they begin to follow the chase. And when the boy reaches fourteen years he is taken over by the royal tutors, as they call them there: these are four men chosen as the most highly esteemed among the Persians of mature age, namely, the wisest one, the justest one, the most temperate one, and the bravest one. > Greek: 121e. ἐπειδὰν δὲ ἑπτέτεις γένωνται οἱ παῖδες, ἐπὶ τοὺς ἵππους καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς τούτων διδασκάλους φοιτῶσιν, καὶ ἐπὶ τὰς θήρας ἄρχονται ἰέναι. δὶς ἑπτὰ δὲ γενόμενον ἐτῶν τὸν παῖδα παραλαμβάνουσιν οὓς ἐκεῖνοι βασιλείους παιδαγωγοὺς ὀνομάζουσιν· εἰσὶ δὲ ἐξειλεγμένοι Περσῶν οἱ ἄριστοι δόξαντες ἐν ἡλικίᾳ τέτταρες, ὅ τε σοφώτατος καὶ ὁ δικαιότατος καὶ ὁ σωφρονέστατος καὶ ὁ ἀνδρειότατος. [¶181] 122. Soc. The first of these teaches him the magian lore of Zoroaster, son of Horomazes; and that is the worship of the gods: he teaches him also what pertains to a king. The justest teaches him to be truthful all his life long; the most temperate, not to be mastered by even a single pleasure, in order that he may be accustomed to be a free man and a veritable king, who is the master first of all that is in him, not the slave; while the bravest trains him to be fearless and undaunted, telling him that to be daunted is to be enslaved. But you, Alcibiades, had a tutor set over you by Pericles from amongst his servants, who was old as to be the most useless of them, Zopyrus the Thracian. > Greek: 122. ΣΩ. ὧν ὁ μὲν μαγείαν τε διδάσκει τὴν Ζωροάστρου τοῦ Ὡρομάζου—ἔστι δὲ τοῦτο θεῶν θεραπεία— διδάσκει δὲ καὶ τὰ βασιλικά, ὁ δὲ δικαιότατος ἀληθεύειν διὰ παντὸς τοῦ βίου, ὁ δὲ σωφρονέστατος μηδʼ ὑπὸ μιᾶς ἄρχεσθαι τῶν ἡδονῶν, ἵνα ἐλεύθερος εἶναι ἐθίζηται καὶ ὄντως βασιλεύς, ἄρχων πρῶτον τῶν ἐν αὑτῷ ἀλλὰ μὴ δουλεύων, ὁ δὲ ἀνδρειότατος ἄφοβον καὶ ἀδεᾶ παρασκευάζων, ὡς ὅταν δείσῃ δοῦλον ὄντα· σοὶ δʼ, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, Περικλῆς ἐπέστησε παιδαγωγὸν τῶν οἰκετῶν τὸν ἀχρειότατον ὑπὸ γήρως, Ζώπυρον τὸν Θρᾷκα. [¶182] 122b. I might describe to you at length the nurture and education of your competitors, were it not too much of a task; and besides, what I have said suffices to show the rest that follows thereon. But about your birth, Alcibiades, or nurture or education, or about those of any other Athenian, one may say that nobody cares, unless it be some lover whom you chance to have. And again, if you chose to glance at the wealth, the luxury, the robes with sweeping trains, the anointings with myrrh, the attendant troops of menials, and all the other refinements of the Persians, you would be ashamed at your own case, on perceiving its inferiority to theirs. > Greek: 122b. διῆλθον δὲ καὶ τὴν ἄλλην ἄν σοι τῶν ἀνταγωνιστῶν τροφήν τε καὶ παιδείαν, εἰ μὴ πολὺ ἔργον ἦν καὶ ἅμα ταῦθʼ ἱκανὰ δηλῶσαι καὶ τἆλλα ὅσα τούτοις ἀκόλουθα· τῆς δὲ σῆς γενέσεως, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, καὶ τροφῆς καὶ παιδείας, ἢ ἄλλου ὁτουοῦν Ἀθηναίων, ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οὐδενὶ μέλει, εἰ μὴ εἴ τις ἐραστής σου τυγχάνει ὤν. εἰ δʼ αὖ ἐθέλεις εἰς πλούτους ἀποβλέψαι καὶ τρυφὰς καὶ ἐσθῆτας ἱματίων θʼ ἕλξεις καὶ μύρων ἀλοιφὰς καὶ θεραπόντων πλήθους ἀκολουθίας τήν τε ἄλλην ἁβρότητα τὴν Περσῶν, αἰσχυνθείης ἂν ἐπὶ σεαυτῷ, αἰσθόμενος ὅσον αὐτῶν ἐλλείπεις. [¶183] 122c. Should you choose, again, to look at the temperance and orderliness, the facility and placidity, the magnanimity and discipline, the courage and endurance, and the toil-loving, success-loving, honor-loving spirit of the Spartans, you would count yourself but a child in all these things. > Greek: 122c. εἰ δʼ αὖ ἐθελήσεις εἰς σωφροσύνην τε καὶ κοσμιότητα ἀποβλέψαι καὶ εὐχέρειαν καὶ εὐκολίαν καὶ μεγαλοφροσύνην καὶ εὐταξίαν καὶ ἀνδρείαν καὶ καρτερίαν καὶ φιλοπονίαν καὶ φιλονικίαν καὶ φιλοτιμίας τὰς Λακεδαιμονίων, παῖδʼ ἂν ἡγήσαιο σαυτὸν πᾶσι τοῖς τοιούτοις. [¶184] 122d. If again you regard wealth, and think yourself something in that way, I must not keep silence on this point either, if you are to realize where you stand. For in this respect you have only to look at the wealth of the Spartans, and you will perceive that our riches here are far inferior to theirs. Think of all the land that they have both in their own and in the Messenian country: not one of our estates could compete with theirs in extent and excellence, nor again in ownership of slaves, and especially of those of the helot class, nor yet of horses, nor of all the flocks and herds that graze in Messene. > Greek: 122d. εἰ δʼ αὖ τι καὶ πλούτῳ προσέχεις καὶ κατὰ τοῦτο οἴει τι εἶναι, μηδὲ τοῦθʼ ἡμῖν ἄρρητον ἔστω, ἐάν πως αἴσθῃ οὗ εἶ. τοῦτο μὲν γὰρ εἰ ἐθέλεις ⟨εἰς⟩ τοὺς Λακεδαιμονίων πλούτους ἰδεῖν, γνώσῃ ὅτι πολὺ τἀνθάδε τῶν ἐκεῖ ἐλλείπει· γῆν μὲν γὰρ ὅσην ἔχουσιν τῆς θʼ ἑαυτῶν καὶ Μεσσήνης, οὐδʼ ἂν εἷς ἀμφισβητήσειε τῶν τῇδε πλήθει οὐδʼ ἀρετῇ, οὐδʼ αὖ ἀνδραπόδων κτήσει τῶν τε ἄλλων καὶ τῶν εἱλωτικῶν, οὐδὲ μὴν ἵππων γε, οὐδʼ ὅσα ἄλλα βοσκήματα κατὰ Μεσσήνην νέμεται. [¶185] 122e. However, I pass over all these things: but there is more gold and silver privately held in Lacedaemon than in the whole of Greece; for during many generations treasure has been passing in to them from every part of Greece, and often from the barbarians also, but not passing out to anyone; and just as in the fable of Aesop, where the fox remarked to the lion on the direction of the footmarks, the traces of the money going into Lacedaemon are clear enough, but nowhere are any to be seen of it coming out; > Greek: 122e. ἀλλὰ ταῦτα μὲν πάντα ἐῶ χαίρειν, χρυσίον δὲ καὶ ἀργύριον οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν πᾶσιν Ἕλλησιν ὅσον ἐν Λακεδαίμονι ἰδίᾳ· πολλὰς γὰρ ἤδη γενεὰς εἰσέρχεται μὲν αὐτόσε ἐξ ἁπάντων τῶν Ἑλλήνων, πολλάκις δὲ καὶ ἐκ τῶν βαρβάρων, ἐξέρχεται δὲ οὐδαμόσε, ἀλλʼ ἀτεχνῶς κατὰ τὸν Αἰσώπου μῦθον ὃν ἡ ἀλώπηξ πρὸς τὸν λέοντα εἶπεν, καὶ τοῦ εἰς Λακεδαίμονα νομίσματος εἰσιόντος μὲν τὰ ἴχνη τὰ ἐκεῖσε τετραμμένα δῆλα, ἐξιόντος δὲ οὐδαμῇ ἄν τις ἴδοι. [¶186] 123. Soc. so that one can be pretty sure that those people are the richest of the Greeks in gold and silver, and that among themselves the richest is the king; for the largest and most numerous receipts of the kind are those of the kings, and besides there is the levy of the royal tribute in no slight amount, which the Spartans pay to their kings. > Greek: 123. ΣΩ. ὥστε εὖ χρὴ εἰδέναι ὅτι καὶ χρυσῷ καὶ ἀργύρῳ οἱ ἐκεῖ πλουσιώτατοί εἰσιν τῶν Ἑλλήνων, καὶ αὐτῶν ἐκείνων ὁ βασιλεύς· ἔκ τε γὰρ τῶν τοιούτων μέγισται λήψεις καὶ πλεῖσταί εἰσι τοῖς βασιλεῦσιν, ἔτι δὲ καὶ ὁ βασιλικὸς φόρος οὐκ ὀλίγος γίγνεται, ὃν τελοῦσιν οἱ Λακεδαιμόνιοι τοῖς βασιλεῦσιν. [¶187] 123b. Now, the Spartan fortunes, though great compared with the wealth of other Greeks, are nought beside that of the Persians and their king. For I myself was once told by a trustworthy person, who had been up to their court, that he traversed a very large tract of excellent land, nearly a day’s journey, which the inhabitants called the girdle of the king’s wife, and another which was similarly called her veil; > Greek: 123b. καὶ τὰ μὲν Λακεδαιμονίων ὡς πρὸς Ἑλληνικοὺς μὲν πλούτους μεγάλα, ὡς δὲ πρὸς τοὺς Περσικοὺς καὶ τοῦ ἐκείνων βασιλέως οὐδέν. ἐπεί ποτʼ ἐγὼ ἤκουσα ἀνδρὸς ἀξιοπίστου τῶν ἀναβεβηκότων παρὰ βασιλέα, ὃς ἔφη παρελθεῖν χώραν πάνυ πολλὴν καὶ ἀγαθήν, ἐγγὺς ἡμερησίαν ὁδόν, ἣν καλεῖν τοὺς ἐπιχωρίους ζώνην τῆς βασιλέως γυναικός· εἶναι δὲ καὶ ἄλλην ἣν αὖ καλεῖσθαι καλύπτραν, καὶ ἄλλους πολλοὺς τόπους καλοὺς καὶ ἀγαθοὺς εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἐξῃρημένους τὸν τῆς γυναικός, καὶ ὀνόματα ἔχειν ἑκάστους τῶν τόπων ἀπὸ ἑκάστου τῶν κόσμων. [¶188] 123c. and many other fine and fertile regions reserved for the adornment of the consort; and each of these regions was named after some part of her apparel. So I imagine, if someone should say to the king’s mother Amestris, who was wife of Xerxes, “The son of Deinomache intends to challenge your son; the mother’s dresses are worth perhaps fifty minae at the outside, while the son has under three hundred acres at Erchiae,” she would wonder to what on earth this Alcibiades could be trusting, that he proposed to contend against Artaxerxes; and I expect she would remark—“The only possible things that the man can be trusting to for his enterprise are industry and wisdom; for these are the only things of any account among the Greeks.” > Greek: 123c. ὥστʼ οἶμαι ἐγώ, εἴ τις εἴποι τῇ βασιλέως μητρί, Ξέρξου δὲ γυναικί, Ἀμήστριδι, ὅτι ἐν νῷ ἔχει σοῦ τῷ ὑεῖ ἀντιτάττεσθαι ὁ Δεινομάχης ὑός, ᾗ ἔστι κόσμος ἴσως ἄξιος μνῶν πεντήκοντα εἰ πάνυ πολλοῦ, τῷ δʼ ὑεῖ αὐτῆς γῆς πλέθρα Ἐρχίασιν οὐδὲ τριακόσια, θαυμάσαι ἂν ὅτῳ ποτὲ πιστεύων ἐν νῷ ἔχει οὗτος ὁ Ἀλκιβιάδης τῷ Ἀρτοξέρξῃ διαγωνίζεσθαι, καὶ οἶμαι ἂν αὐτὴν εἰπεῖν ὅτι οὐκ ἔσθʼ ὅτῳ ἄλλῳ πιστεύων οὗτος ἀνὴρ ἐπιχειρεῖ πλὴν ἐπιμελείᾳ τε καὶ σοφίᾳ· [¶189] 123d. Whereas if she were informed that this Alcibiades who is actually making such an attempt is, in the first place, as yet barely twenty years old, and secondly, altogether uneducated; and further, that when his lover tells him that he must first learn, and take pains over himself, and practise, before he enters on a contest with the king, he refuses, and says he will do very well as he is; I expect she would ask in surprise, “On what, then, can the youngster rely?” > Greek: 123d. ταῦτα γὰρ μόνα ἄξια λόγου ἐν Ἕλλησιν. ἐπεὶ εἴ γε πύθοιτο ὅτι Ἀλκιβιάδης οὗτος νῦν ἐπιχειρεῖ πρῶτον μὲν ἔτη οὐδέπω γεγονὼς σφόδρα εἴκοσιν, ἔπειτα παντάπασιν ἀπαίδευτος, πρὸς δὲ τούτοις, τοῦ ἐραστοῦ αὐτῷ λέγοντος ὅτι χρὴ πρῶτον μαθόντα καὶ ἐπιμεληθέντα αὑτοῦ καὶ ἀσκήσαντα οὕτως ἰέναι διαγωνιούμενον βασιλεῖ, οὐκ ἐθέλει, ἀλλά φησιν ἐξαρκεῖν καὶ ὡς ἔχει, οἶμαι ἂν αὐτὴν θαυμάσαι τε καὶ ἐρέσθαι· [¶190] 123e. And if we told her, “On beauty, stature, birth, wealth, and mental gifts,” she would conclude we were mad, Alcibiades, when she compared the advantages of her own people in all these respects. > Greek: 123e. τί οὖν ποτʼ ἔστιν ὅτῳ πιστεύει τὸ μειράκιον; εἰ οὖν λέγοιμεν ὅτι κάλλει τε καὶ μεγέθει καὶ γένει καὶ πλούτῳ καὶ φύσει τῆς ψυχῆς, ἡγήσαιτʼ ἂν ἡμᾶς, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, μαίνεσθαι πρὸς τὰ παρὰ σφίσιν ἀποβλέψασα πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα. [¶191] 124. Soc. And I imagine that even Lampido, daughter of Leotychides and wife of Archidamus and mother of Agis, who have all been kings, would wonder in the same way, when she compared her people’s resources, at your intention of having a contest with her son despite your bad upbringing. > Greek: 124. ΣΩ. οἶμαι δὲ κἂν Λαμπιδώ, τὴν Λεωτυχίδου μὲν θυγατέρα, Ἀρχιδάμου δὲ γυναῖκα, Ἄγιδος δὲ μητέρα, οἳ πάντες βασιλῆς γεγόνασιν, θαυμάσαι ἂν καὶ ταύτην εἰς τὰ παρὰ σφίσιν ὑπάρχοντα ἀποβλέψασαν, εἰ σὺ ἐν νῷ ἔχεις τῷ ὑεῖ αὐτῆς διαγωνίζεσθαι οὕτω κακῶς ἠγμένος. [¶192] 124a. And yet, does it not strike you as disgraceful that our enemies’ wives should have a better idea of the qualities that we need for an attempt against them than we have ourselves? Ah, my remarkable friend, listen to me and the Delphic motto, “Know thyself”; for these people are our competitors, not those whom you think; and there is nothing that will give us ascendancy over them save only pains and skill. > Greek: 124a. καίτοι οὐκ αἰσχρὸν δοκεῖ εἶναι, εἰ αἱ τῶν πολεμίων γυναῖκες βέλτιον περὶ ἡμῶν διανοοῦνται, οἵους χρὴ ὄντας σφίσιν ἐπιχειρεῖν, ἢ ἡμεῖς περὶ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν; ἀλλʼ, ὦ μακάριε, πειθόμενος ἐμοί τε καὶ τῷ ἐν Δελφοῖς γράμματι, γνῶθι σαυτόν, ὅτι οὗτοι ἡμῖν εἰσιν ἀντίπαλοι, ἀλλʼ οὐχ οὓς σὺ οἴει· [¶193] 124b. If you are found wanting in these, you will be found wanting also in achievement of renown among Greeks and barbarians both; and of this I observe you to be more enamored than anyone else ever was of anything. > Greek: 124b. ὧν ἄλλῳ μὲν οὐδʼ ἂν ἑνὶ περιγενοίμεθα, εἰ μή περ ἐπιμελείᾳ γε ἂν καὶ τέχνῃ. ὧν σὺ εἰ ἀπολειφθήσῃ, καὶ τοῦ ὀνομαστὸς γενέσθαι ἀπολειφθήσῃ ἐν Ἕλλησί τε καὶ βαρβάροις, οὗ μοι δοκεῖς ἐρᾶν ὡς οὐδεὶς ἄλλος ἄλλου. [¶194] Alc. Well then, what are the pains that I must take, Socrates? Can you enlighten me? For I must say your words are remarkably like the truth. > Greek: ΑΛ. τίνα οὖν χρὴ τὴν ἐπιμέλειαν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ποιεῖσθαι; ἔχεις ἐξηγήσασθαι; παντὸς γὰρ μᾶλλον ἔοικας ἀληθῆ εἰρηκότι. [¶195] Soc. Yes, I can: but we must put our heads together, you know, as to the way in which we can improve ourselves to the utmost. > Greek: ΣΩ. ναί· ἀλλὰ γὰρ κοινὴ βουλὴ ᾧτινι τρόπῳ ἂν ὅτι βέλτιστοι γενοίμεθα. [¶196] 124c. For observe that when I speak of the need of being educated I am not referring only to you, apart from myself; since my case is identical with yours except in one point. > Greek: 124c. ἐγὼ γάρ τοι οὐ περὶ μὲν σοῦ λέγω ὡς χρὴ παιδευθῆναι, περὶ ἐμοῦ δὲ οὔ· οὐ γὰρ ἔσθʼ ὅτῳ σου διαφέρω πλήν γʼ ἑνί. [¶197] Alc. What is that? > Greek: ΑΛ. τίνι; [¶198] Soc. My guardian is better and wiser than your one, Pericles. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὁ ἐπίτροπος ὁ ἐμὸς βελτίων ἐστὶ καὶ σοφώτερος ἢ Περικλῆς ὁ σός. [¶199] Alc. Who is he, Socrates? > Greek: ΑΛ. τίς οὗτος, ὦ Σώκρατες; [¶200] Soc. God, Alcibiades, who until this day would not let me converse with you; and trusting in him I say that through no other man but me will you attain to eminence. > Greek: ΣΩ. θεός, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, ὅσπερ σοί με οὐκ εἴα πρὸ τῆσδε τῆς ἡμέρας διαλεχθῆναι· ᾧ καὶ πιστεύων λέγω ὅτι ἡ ἐπιφάνεια διʼ οὐδενὸς ἄλλου σοι ἔσται ἢ διʼ ἐμοῦ. [¶201] 124d. Alc. You are jesting, Socrates. > Greek: 124d. ΑΛ. παίζεις, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶202] Soc. Perhaps; I am right, however, in saying that we need to take pains—all men rather badly, but we two very badly indeed. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἴσως· λέγω μέντοι ἀληθῆ, ὅτι ἐπιμελείας δεόμεθα, μᾶλλον μὲν πάντες ἄνθρωποι, ἀτὰρ νώ γε καὶ μάλα σφόδρα. [¶203] Alc. As to me, you are not wrong. > Greek: ΑΛ. ὅτι μὲν ἐγώ, οὐ ψεύδῃ. [¶204] Soc. Nor, I fear, as to myself either. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐδὲ μὴν ὅτι γε ἐγώ. [¶205] Alc. Then what can we do? > Greek: ΑΛ. τί οὖν ἂν ποιοῖμεν; [¶206] Soc. There must be no crying off or skulking, my good friend. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκ ἀπορρητέον οὐδὲ μαλθακιστέον, ὦ ἑταῖρε. [¶207] Alc. No, for that would indeed be unseemly, Socrates. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὔτοι δὴ πρέπει γʼ, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶208] Soc. It would; so let us consider in common. Now tell me: > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐ γάρ, ἀλλὰ σκεπτέον κοινῇ. καί μοι λέγε· [¶209] 124e. we say, do we not, that we wish to be as good as possible? > Greek: 124e. φαμὲν γὰρ δὴ ὡς ἄριστοι βούλεσθαι γενέσθαι. ἦ γάρ; [¶210] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶211] Soc. In what excellence? > Greek: ΣΩ. τίνα ἀρετήν; [¶212] Alc. Clearly that which is the aim of good men. > Greek: ΑΛ. δῆλον ὅτι ἥνπερ οἱ ἄνδρες οἱ ἀγαθοί. [¶213] Soc. Good in what? > Greek: ΣΩ. οἱ τί ἀγαθοί; [¶214] Alc. Clearly, good in the management of affairs. > Greek: ΑΛ. δῆλον ὅτι οἱ πράττειν τὰ πράγματα. [¶215] Soc. What sort of affairs? Horsemanship? > Greek: ΣΩ. ποῖα; ἆρα τὰ ἱππικά; [¶216] Alc. No, no. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶217] Soc. Because we should apply to horsemen? > Greek: ΣΩ. παρὰ τοὺς ἱππικοὺς γὰρ ἂν ᾖμεν; [¶218] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶219] Soc. Well, seamanship, do you mean? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ τὰ ναυτικὰ λέγεις; [¶220] Alc. No. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὔ. [¶221] Soc. Because we should apply to seamen? > Greek: ΣΩ. παρὰ τοὺς ναυτικοὺς γὰρ ἂν ᾖμεν; [¶222] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶223] Soc. Well, what sort of thing? The business of what men? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ ποῖα; ἃ τίνες πράττουσιν; [¶224] Alc. Of Athenian gentlemen. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἅπερ Ἀθηναίων οἱ καλοὶ κἀγαθοί. [¶225] 125a. Soc. Do you mean by “gentlemen” the intelligent or the unintelligent? > Greek: 125a. ΣΩ. καλοὺς δὲ κἀγαθοὺς λέγεις τοὺς φρονίμους ἢ τοὺς ἄφρονας; [¶226] Alc. The intelligent. > Greek: ΑΛ. τοὺς φρονίμους. [¶227] Soc. And everyone is good in that wherein he is intelligent? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ὃ ἕκαστος φρόνιμος, τοῦτʼ ἀγαθός; [¶228] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶229] Soc. And bad wherein he is unintelligent? > Greek: ΣΩ. ὃ δὲ ἄφρων, πονηρός; [¶230] Alc. Of course. > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; [¶231] Soc. Then is the shoemaker intelligent in the making of foot-gear? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν ὁ σκυτοτόμος φρόνιμος εἰς ὑποδημάτων ἐργασίαν; [¶232] Alc. Certainly. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶233] Soc. So he is good in that article? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀγαθὸς ἄρʼ εἰς αὐτά; [¶234] Alc. Good. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀγαθός. [¶235] Soc. Well now, is not the shoemaker unintelligent in the making of clothes? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δʼ; εἰς ἱματίων ἐργασίαν οὐκ ἄφρων ὁ σκυτοτόμος; [¶236] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶237] 125b. Soc. So he is bad in that? > Greek: 125b. ΣΩ. κακὸς ἄρα εἰς τοῦτο; ## 3. 125c–135e Source: https://scriptura.si/works/plato-alcibiades-i/3/ · cite a paragraph as https://scriptura.si/works/plato-alcibiades-i/3/#p-N [¶0] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶1] Soc. Then, on this showing, the same man is both bad and good. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὁ αὐτὸς ἄρα τούτῳ γε τῷ λόγῳ κακός τε καὶ ἀγαθός. [¶2] Alc. Apparently. > Greek: ΑΛ. φαίνεται. [¶3] Soc. Well, can you say that good men are also bad? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἦ οὖν λέγεις τοὺς ἀγαθοὺς ἄνδρας εἶναι καὶ κακούς; [¶4] Alc. No, indeed. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶5] Soc. But whoever do you mean by the good? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ τίνας ποτὲ τοὺς ἀγαθοὺς λέγεις; [¶6] Alc. I mean those who are able to rule in the city. > Greek: ΑΛ. τοὺς δυναμένους ἔγωγε ἄρχειν ἐν τῇ πόλει. [¶7] Soc. Not, I presume, over horses? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐ δήπου ἵππων γε; [¶8] Alc. No, no. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶9] Soc. But over men? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ἀνθρώπων; [¶10] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶11] Soc. When they are sick? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρα καμνόντων; [¶12] Alc. No. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὔ. [¶13] Soc. Or at sea? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ πλεόντων; [¶14] Alc. I say, no. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὔ φημι. [¶15] Soc. Or harvesting? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ θεριζόντων; [¶16] Alc. No. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὔ. [¶17] 125c. Soc. Doing nothing, or doing something? > Greek: 125c. ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ οὐδὲν ποιούντων ἤ τι ποιούντων; [¶18] Alc. Doing something, I say. > Greek: ΑΛ. ποιούντων λέγω. [¶19] Soc. Doing what? Try and let me know. > Greek: ΣΩ. τί; πειρῶ καὶ ἐμοὶ δηλῶσαι. [¶20] Alc. Well, men who do business with each other and make use of one another, as is our way of life in our cities. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐκοῦν τῶν καὶ συμβαλλόντων ἑαυτοῖς καὶ χρωμένων ἀλλήλοις, ὥσπερ ἡμεῖς ζῶμεν ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν. [¶21] Soc. Then you speak of ruling over men who make use of men? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἀνθρώπων λέγεις ἄρχειν ἀνθρώποις χρωμένων; [¶22] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶23] Soc. Over boatswains who make use of rowers? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρα κελευστῶν χρωμένων ἐρέταις; [¶24] Alc. No, no. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶25] Soc. Because that is the pilot’s distinction? > Greek: ΣΩ. κυβερνητικὴ γὰρ αὕτη γε ἀρετή; [¶26] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶27] Soc. Well, do you mean ruling over men who are flute-players, and who lead the singing and make use of dancers? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ἀνθρώπων λέγεις ἄρχειν αὐλητῶν, ἀνθρώποις ἡγουμένων ᾠδῆς καὶ χρωμένων χορευταῖς; [¶28] 125d. Alc. No, no. > Greek: 125d. ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶29] Soc. Because, again, that is the chorus-teacher’s function? > Greek: ΣΩ. χοροδιδασκαλικὴ γὰρ αὕτη γʼ αὖ; [¶30] Alc. To be sure. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶31] Soc. But whatever do you mean by being able to rule over men who make use of men? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ τί ποτε λέγεις χρωμένων ἀνθρώπων ἀνθρώποις οἷόν τʼ εἶναι ἄρχειν; [¶32] Alc. I mean ruling over men in the city who share in it as fellow-citizens, and do business with each other. > Greek: ΑΛ. κοινωνούντων ἔγωγε λέγω πολιτείας καὶ συμβαλλόντων πρὸς ἀλλήλους, τούτων ἄρχειν τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει. [¶33] Soc. Well, what art is this? Suppose I should ask you over again, as I did just now, what art makes men know how to rule over fellow-sailors? > Greek: ΣΩ. τίς οὖν αὕτη ἡ τέχνη; ὥσπερ ἂν εἴ σε ἐροίμην πάλιν τὰ νυνδή, κοινωνούντων ναυτιλίας ἐπίστασθαι ἄρχειν τίς ποιεῖ τέχνη; [¶34] Alc. The pilot’s. > Greek: ΑΛ. κυβερνητική. [¶35] 125e. Soc. And what knowledge—to repeat what was said a moment ago—makes them rule over their fellow-singers? > Greek: 125e. ΣΩ. κοινωνούντων δʼ ᾠδῆς, ὡς νυνδὴ ἐλέγετο, τις ἐπιστήμη ποιεῖ ἄρχειν; [¶36] Alc. That which you just mentioned, the chorus-teacher’s. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἥνπερ σὺ ἄρτι ἔλεγες, ἡ χοροδιδασκαλία. [¶37] Soc. Well now, what do you call the knowledge of one’s fellow-citizens? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δέ; πολιτείας κοινωνούντων τίνα καλεῖς ἐπιστήμην; [¶38] Alc. Good counsel, I should say, Socrates. > Greek: ΑΛ. εὐβουλίαν ἔγωγε, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶39] Soc. Well, and is the pilot’s knowledge evil counsel? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δέ; μῶν ἀβουλία δοκεῖ εἶναι ἡ τῶν κυβερνητῶν; [¶40] Alc. No, no. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶41] Soc. Rather good counsel? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ εὐβουλία; [¶42] 126a. Alc. So I should think, for the preservation of his passengers. > Greek: 126a. ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ, εἴς γε τὸ σῴζεσθαι πλέοντας. [¶43] Soc. Quite right. And now, for what is the good counsel of which you speak? > Greek: ΣΩ. καλῶς λέγεις. τί δέ; ἣν σὺ λέγεις εὐβουλίαν, εἰς τί ἐστιν; [¶44] Alc. For the better management and preservation of the city. > Greek: ΑΛ. εἰς τὸ ἄμεινον τὴν πόλιν διοικεῖν καὶ σῴζεσθαι. [¶45] Soc. And what is it that becomes present or absent when we get this better management and preservation? If, for example, you should ask me, “What is it that becomes present or absent when the body is better managed and preserved?”—I should reply, “Health becomes present, and disease absent.” Do not you think so too? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἄμεινον δὲ διοικεῖται καὶ σῴζεται τίνος παραγιγνομένου ἢ ἀπογιγνομένου; ὥσπερ ἂν εἰ σύ με ἔροιο· ἄμεινον διοικεῖται σῶμα καὶ σῴζεται τίνος παραγιγνομένου ἢ ἀπογιγνομένου; εἴποιμʼ ἂν ὅτι ὑγιείας μὲν παραγιγνομένης, νόσου δὲ ἀπογιγνομένης. οὐ καὶ σὺ οἴει οὕτως; [¶46] 126b. Alc. Yes. > Greek: 126b. ΑΛ. ναί. [¶47] Soc. And if, again, you asked me, “What becomes present in a better condition of the eyes?”—I should answer in just the same way, “Sight becomes present, and blindness absent.” So, in the case of the ears, deafness is caused to be absent, and hearing to be present, when they are improved and getting better treatment. > Greek: ΣΩ. καὶ εἴ μʼ αὖ ἔροιο· τίνος δὲ παραγιγνομένου ἄμεινον ὄμματα; ὡσαύτως εἴποιμʼ ἂν ὅτι ὄψεως μὲν παραγιγνομένης, τυφλότητος δὲ ἀπογιγνομένης. καὶ ὦτα δὲ κωφότητος μὲν ἀπογιγνομένης, ἀκοῆς δὲ ἐγγιγνομένης βελτίω τε γίγνεται καὶ ἄμεινον θεραπεύεται. [¶48] Alc. Correct. > Greek: ΑΛ. ὀρθῶς. [¶49] Soc. Well then, what is it that becomes present or absent when a state is improved and has better treatment and management? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δὲ δή; πόλις τίνος παραγιγνομένου καὶ ἀπογιγνομένου βελτίων τε γίγνεται καὶ ἄμεινον θεραπεύεται καὶ διοικεῖται; [¶50] 126c. Alc. To my mind, Socrates, friendship with one another will be there, while hatred and faction will be absent. > Greek: 126c. ΑΛ. ἐμοὶ μὲν δοκεῖ, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὅταν φιλία μὲν αὐτοῖς γίγνηται πρὸς ἀλλήλους, τὸ μισεῖν δὲ καὶ στασιάζειν ἀπογίγνηται. [¶51] Soc. Now, by friendship do you mean agreement or disagreement? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν φιλίαν λέγεις ὁμόνοιαν ἢ διχόνοιαν; [¶52] Alc. Agreement. > Greek: ΑΛ. ὁμόνοιαν. [¶53] Soc. And what art is it that causes states to agree about numbers? > Greek: ΣΩ. διὰ τίνʼ οὖν τέχνην ὁμονοοῦσιν αἱ πόλεις περὶ ἀριθμούς; [¶54] Alc. Arithmetic. > Greek: ΑΛ. διὰ τὴν ἀριθμητικήν. [¶55] Soc. And what of individuals? Is it not the same art? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δὲ οἱ ἰδιῶται; οὐ διὰ τὴν αὐτήν; [¶56] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶57] Soc. And it makes each single person agree with himself? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ αὐτὸς αὑτῷ ἕκαστος; [¶58] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶59] Soc. And what art makes each of us agree with himself as to which is the longer, a span or a cubit? > Greek: ΣΩ. διὰ τίνα δὲ τέχνην ἕκαστος αὐτὸς αὑτῷ ὁμονοεῖ περὶ σπιθαμῆς καὶ πήχεος ὁπότερον μεῖζον; [¶60] 126d. Is it not mensuration? > Greek: 126d. οὐ διὰ τὴν μετρητικήν; [¶61] Alc. Of course. > Greek: ΑΛ. τί μήν; [¶62] Soc. And it makes both individuals and states agree with each other? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ οἱ ἰδιῶται ἀλλήλοις καὶ αἱ πόλεις; [¶63] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶64] Soc. And what about the balance? Is it not the same here too? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δέ; περὶ σταθμοῦ οὐχ ὡσαύτως; [¶65] Alc. It is. > Greek: ΑΛ. φημί. [¶66] Soc. Then what is that agreement of which you speak, and about what? And what art secures it? And is it the same in an individual as in a state, when one agrees with oneself and with another? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἣν δὲ δὴ σὺ λέγεις ὁμόνοιαν, τίς ἐστι καὶ περὶ τοῦ, καὶ τίς αὐτὴν τέχνη παρασκευάζει; καὶ ἆρα ἥπερ πόλει, αὑτὴ καὶ ἰδιώτῃ, αὐτῷ τε πρὸς αὑτὸν καὶ πρὸς ἄλλον; [¶67] Alc. Most likely. > Greek: ΑΛ. εἰκός γέ τοι. [¶68] Soc. Well, what is it? Do not flag in your answers, but do your best to tell me. > Greek: ΣΩ. τίς οὖν ἔστι; μὴ κάμῃς ἀποκρινόμενος, ἀλλὰ προθυμοῦ εἰπεῖν. [¶69] 126e. Alc. I suppose I mean the friendship and agreement that you find when a father and mother love their son, and between brother and brother, and husband and wife. > Greek: 126e. ΑΛ. ἐγὼ μὲν οἶμαι φιλίαν τε λέγειν καὶ ὁμόνοιαν, ἥνπερ πατήρ τε ὑὸν φιλῶν ὁμονοεῖ καὶ μήτηρ, καὶ ἀδελφὸς ἀδελφῷ καὶ γυνὴ ἀνδρί. [¶70] Soc. Then do you suppose, Alcibiades, that a husband can possibly agree with his wife about woolwork, when he does not understand it, and she does? > Greek: ΣΩ. οἴει ἂν οὖν, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, ἄνδρα γυναικὶ περὶ ταλασιουργίας δύνασθαι ὁμονοεῖν, τὸν μὴ ἐπιστάμενον τῇ ἐπισταμένῃ; [¶71] Alc. Oh, no. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶72] Soc. Nor has he any need, since that is a woman’s pursuit. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐδέ γε δεῖ οὐδέν· γυναικεῖον γὰρ τοῦτό γε μάθημα. [¶73] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶74] 127a. Soc. Or again, could a woman agree with a man about soldiering, when she has not learnt it? > Greek: 127a. ΣΩ. τί δέ; γυνὴ ἀνδρὶ περὶ ὁπλιτικῆς δύναιτʼ ἂν ὁμονοεῖν μὴ μαθοῦσα; [¶75] Alc. Oh, no. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶76] Soc. Because, I expect you will say again, that is a man’s affair. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀνδρεῖον γὰρ τοῦτό γε ἴσως αὖ φαίης ἂν εἶναι. [¶77] Alc. I would. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔγωγε. [¶78] Soc. Then, by your account, there are some pursuits belonging to women, and some to men? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔστιν ἄρα τὰ μὲν γυναικεῖα, τὰ δὲ ἀνδρεῖα μαθήματα κατὰ τὸν σὸν λόγον. [¶79] Alc. Of course. > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ; [¶80] Soc. So in these, at any rate, there is no agreement between men and women. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα ἔν γε τούτοις ἐστὶν ὁμόνοια γυναιξὶ πρὸς ἄνδρας. [¶81] Alc. No. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὔ. [¶82] Soc. And hence no friendship either, if, as we said, friendship is agreement. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐδʼ ἄρα φιλία, εἴπερ ἡ φιλία ὁμόνοια ἦν. [¶83] Alc. Apparently not. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ φαίνεται. [¶84] Soc. So women are not loved by men, in so far as they do their own work. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἧι ἄρα αἱ γυναῖκες τὰ αὑτῶν πράττουσιν, οὐ φιλοῦνται ὑπὸ τῶν ἀνδρῶν. [¶85] 127b. Alc. It seems not. > Greek: 127b. ΑΛ. οὐκ ἔοικεν. [¶86] Soc. Nor are men by women, in so far as they do theirs. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐδʼ ἄρα οἱ ἄνδρες ὑπὸ τῶν γυναικῶν ᾗ τὰ αὑτῶν. [¶87] Alc. No. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὔ. [¶88] Soc. And states, therefore, are not well ordered in so far as each person does his own business? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐδʼ εὖ ἄρα ταύτῃ οἰκοῦνται αἱ πόλεις, ὅταν τὰ αὑτῶν ἕκαστοι πράττωσιν; [¶89] Alc. I think they are, Socrates. > Greek: ΑΛ. οἶμαι ἔγωγε, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶90] Soc. How can you say that? Without the presence of friendship, which we say must be there if states are well ordered, as otherwise they are not? > Greek: ΣΩ. πῶς λέγεις, φιλίας μὴ παρούσης, ἧς ἔφαμεν ἐγγιγνομένης εὖ οἰκεῖσθαι τὰς πόλεις, ἄλλως δʼ οὔ; [¶91] Alc. But it seems to me that friendship arises among them just on that account—that each of the two parties does its own business. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλά μοι δοκεῖ καὶ κατὰ τοῦτʼ αὐτοῖς φιλία ἐγγίγνεσθαι, ὅτι τὰ αὑτῶν ἑκάτεροι πράττουσιν. [¶92] 127c. Soc. It was not so a moment since: but now, what do you mean this time? Does friendship arise where there is no agreement? And is it possible that agreement should arise where some know about the business, but others do not? Alc. Impossible. Soc. And are they doing what is just or unjust, when each man does his own business? Alc. What is just, of course. Soc. And when the citizens do what is just in the city, does not friendship arise among them? Alc. Again I think that must be so, Socrates. Soc. Then whatever do you mean by that friendship or agreement about which we must be wise and well-advised in order that we may be good men? > Greek: 127c. ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρτι γε· νῦν δὲ πῶς αὖ λέγεις; ὁμονοίας μὴ ἐγγιγνομένης φιλία ἐγγίγνεται; ἢ οἷόν θʼ ὁμόνοιαν ἐγγίγνεσθαι [περὶ τούτων] ὧν οἱ μὲν ἴσασι περὶ τούτων, οἱ δʼ οὔ; ΑΛ. ἀδύνατον. ΣΩ. δίκαια δὲ πράττουσιν ἢ ἄδικα, ὅταν τὰ αὑτῶν ἕκαστοι πράττωσιν; ΑΛ. δίκαια· πῶς γὰρ οὔ; ΣΩ. τὰ δίκαια οὖν πραττόντων ἐν τῇ πόλει τῶν πολιτῶν φιλία οὐκ ἐγγίγνεται πρὸς ἀλλήλους; ΑΛ. ἀνάγκη αὖ μοι δοκεῖ εἶναι, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶93] 127d. For I am unable to learn either what it is, or in whom; since it appears that the same persons sometimes have it, and sometimes not, by your account. Alc. Well, by Heaven, Socrates, I do not even know what I mean myself, and I fear that for some time past I have lived unawares in a disgraceful condition. Soc. But you must take heart. For had you perceived your plight at fifty, it would be hard for you to take pains with yourself; whereas here you are at the time of life when one ought to perceive it. > Greek: 127d. ΣΩ. τίνα οὖν ποτε λέγεις τὴν φιλίαν ἢ ὁμόνοιαν περὶ ἧς δεῖ ἡμᾶς σοφούς τε εἶναι καὶ εὐβούλους, ἵνα ἀγαθοὶ ἄνδρες ὦμεν; οὐ γὰρ δύναμαι μαθεῖν οὔθʼ ἥτις οὔτʼ ἐν οἷστισιν· τοτὲ μὲν γὰρ ἐν τοῖς αὐτοῖς φαίνεται ἐνοῦσα, τοτὲ δʼ οὔ, ὡς ἐκ τοῦ σοῦ λόγου. ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ μὰ τοὺς θεούς, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐδʼ αὐτὸς οἶδʼ ὅτι λέγω, κινδυνεύω δὲ καὶ πάλαι λεληθέναι ἐμαυτὸν αἴσχιστα ἔχων. ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ χρὴ θαρρεῖν. εἰ μὲν γὰρ αὐτὸ ᾔσθου πεπονθὼς πεντηκονταετής, χαλεπὸν ἂν ἦν σοι ἐπιμεληθῆναι σαυτοῦ· [¶94] 127e. Alc. Then what should one do on perceiving it, Socrates? Soc. Answer the questions asked, Alcibiades: only do that, and with Heaven’s favor—if we are to put any trust in my divination—you and I shall both be in better case. Alc. That shall be, so far as my answering can avail. > Greek: 127e. νῦν δʼ ἣν ἔχεις ἡλικίαν, αὕτη ἐστὶν ἐν ᾗ δεῖ αὐτὸ αἰσθέσθαι. ΑΛ. τί οὖν τὸν αἰσθανόμενον χρὴ ποιεῖν, ὦ Σώκρατες; ΣΩ. ἀποκρίνεσθαι τὰ ἐρωτώμενα, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη· καὶ ἐὰν τοῦτο ποιῇς, ἂν θεὸς θέλῃ, εἴ τι δεῖ καὶ τῇ ἐμῇ μαντείᾳ πιστεύειν, σύ τε κἀγὼ βέλτιον σχήσομεν. ΑΛ. ἔσται ταῦτα ἕνεκά γε τοῦ ἐμὲ ἀποκρίνεσθαι. [¶95] 128. Soc. Come then, what is “taking pains over oneself”— for we may perchance be taking, unawares, no pains over ourselves, though we think we are—and when does a man actually do it? > Greek: 128. ΣΩ. φέρε δή, τί ἐστιν τὸ ἑαυτοῦ ἐπιμελεῖσθαι—μὴ πολλάκις λάθωμεν οὐχ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν ἐπιμελούμενοι, οἰόμενοι δέ —καὶ πότʼ ἄρα αὐτὸ ποιεῖ ἅνθρωπος; [¶96] 128a. Does he take pains over himself at the same time as over his own things? Alc. I at least believe so. Soc. Well now, when does a man take pains over his feet? Is it when he takes pains over what belongs to his feet? Alc. I do not understand. Soc. Is there anything you can name as belonging to the hand? For instance, does a ring belong to any other part of a man but the finger? Alc. No, indeed. Soc. And so the shoe also belongs to the foot, in the same way? Alc. Yes. Soc. And likewise clothes and coverlets belong to the whole body? > Greek: 128a. ἆρʼ ὅταν τῶν αὑτοῦ ἐπιμελῆται, τότε καὶ αὑτοῦ; ΑΛ. ἐμοὶ γοῦν δοκεῖ. ΣΩ. τί δέ; ποδῶν ἅνθρωπος ποτε ἐπιμελεῖται; ἆρʼ ὅταν ἐκείνων ἐπιμελῆται ἅ ἐστι τῶν ποδῶν; ΑΛ. οὐ μανθάνω. ΣΩ. καλεῖς δέ τι χειρός; οἷον δακτύλιον ἔστιν ὅτου ἂν ἄλλου τῶν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου φαίης ἢ δακτύλου; ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ποδὸς ὑπόδημα τὸν αὐτὸν τρόπον; ΑΛ. ναί. ⟨ ΣΩ. καὶ ἱμάτια καὶ στρώματα τοῦ ἄλλου σώματος ὁμοίως;⟩ ⟨ ΑΛ. [¶97] 128b. Alc. Yes. Soc. Now when we take pains over our shoes, we take pains over our feet? Alc. I do not quite understand, Socrates. Soc. Well, but, Alcibiades, you speak of taking proper pains over this or that matter, do you not? Alc. I do. Soc. And do you call it proper pains when someone makes a thing better? Alc. Yes. Soc. Then what art makes shoes better? Alc. Shoe-making. Soc. So by shoe-making we take pains over our shoes? > Greek: 128b. ναί.⟩ ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν ὅταν ὑποδημάτων ἐπιμελώμεθα, τότε ποδῶν ἐπιμελούμεθα; ΑΛ. οὐ πάνυ μανθάνω, ὦ Σώκρατες. ΣΩ. τί δέ, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη; ὀρθῶς ἐπιμελεῖσθαι καλεῖς τι ὁτουοῦν πράγματος; ΑΛ. ἔγωγε. ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν ὅταν τίς τι βέλτιον ποιῇ, τότε ὀρθὴν λέγεις ἐπιμέλειαν; ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. τίς οὖν τέχνη ὑποδήματα βελτίω ποιεῖ; ΑΛ. σκυτική. ΣΩ. σκυτικῇ ἄρα ὑποδημάτων ἐπιμελούμεθα; [¶98] 128c. Alc. Yes. > Greek: 128c. ΑΛ. ναί. [¶99] Soc. And over our foot too by shoe-making? Or by that art whereby we make feet better? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἦ καὶ ποδὸς σκυτικῇ; ἢ ἐκείνῃ ᾗ πόδας βελτίους ποιοῦμεν; [¶100] Alc. By that art. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἐκείνῃ. [¶101] Soc. And is it not the same one for making our feet as for making the whole body better? > Greek: ΣΩ. βελτίους δὲ πόδας οὐχ ᾗπερ καὶ τὸ ἄλλο σῶμα; [¶102] Alc. I think so. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. [¶103] Soc. And is not that gymnastic? > Greek: ΣΩ. αὕτη δʼ οὐ γυμναστική; [¶104] Alc. Certainly. > Greek: ΑΛ. μάλιστα. [¶105] Soc. So by gymnastic we take pains over our foot, but by shoe-making over what belongs to our foot? > Greek: ΣΩ. γυμναστικῇ μὲν ἄρα ποδὸς ἐπιμελούμεθα, σκυτικῇ δὲ τῶν τοῦ ποδός; [¶106] Alc. Quite so. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶107] Soc. And by gymnastic over our hands, but by ring-engraving over what belongs to the hand? > Greek: ΣΩ. καὶ γυμναστικῇ μὲν χειρῶν, δακτυλιογλυφίᾳ δὲ τῶν τῆς χειρός; [¶108] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶109] Soc. And by gymnastic over the body, but by weaving and the rest over what belongs to the body? > Greek: ΣΩ. καὶ γυμναστικῇ μὲν σώματος, ὑφαντικῇ δὲ καὶ ταῖς ἄλλαις τῶν τοῦ σώματος; [¶110] 128d. Alc. Absolutely so. > Greek: 128d. ΑΛ. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν. [¶111] Soc. Then for taking pains over a thing itself and over what belongs to it we use different arts. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἄλλῃ μὲν ἄρα τέχνῃ αὐτοῦ ἑκάστου ἐπιμελούμεθα, ἄλλῃ δὲ τῶν αὐτοῦ. [¶112] Alc. Apparently. > Greek: ΑΛ. φαίνεται. [¶113] Soc. So when you take pains over your belongings you are not taking pains over yourself. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα ὅταν τῶν σαυτοῦ ἐπιμελῇ, σαυτοῦ ἐπιμελῇ. [¶114] Alc. Not at all. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐδαμῶς. [¶115] Soc. For the arts, it seems, that one used for taking pains over oneself and over one’s belongings would not be the same. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐ γὰρ ἡ αὐτὴ τέχνη, ὡς ἔοικεν, ᾗ τις ἂν αὑτοῦ τε ἐπιμελοῖτο καὶ τῶν αὑτοῦ. [¶116] Alc. Apparently not. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ φαίνεται. [¶117] Soc. Come then, whatever kind of art can we use for taking pains over ourselves? > Greek: ΣΩ. φέρε δή, ποίᾳ ποτʼ ἂν ἡμῶν αὐτῶν ἐπιμεληθείημεν; [¶118] Alc. I cannot say. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐκ ἔχω λέγειν. [¶119] 128e. Soc. Well, so much at least has been admitted, that it is not one which would help us to make a single one of our possessions better, but one which would help to make ourselves so? > Greek: 128e. ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ τοσόνδε γε ὡμολόγηται, ὅτι οὐχ ᾗ ἂν τῶν ἡμετέρων καὶ ὁτιοῦν βέλτιον ποιοῖμεν, ἀλλʼ ᾗ ἡμᾶς αὐτούς; [¶120] Alc. That is true. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. [¶121] Soc. Now, should we ever have known what art makes a shoe better, if we had not known a shoe? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἦ οὖν ἔγνωμεν ἄν ποτε τίς τέχνη ὑπόδημα βέλτιον ποιεῖ, μὴ εἰδότες ὑπόδημα; [¶122] Alc. Impossible. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀδύνατον. [¶123] Soc. Nor could we know what art makes rings better, if we had no cognizance of a ring. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐδέ γε τίς τέχνη δακτυλίους βελτίους ποιεῖ, ἀγνοοῦντες δακτύλιον. [¶124] Alc. True. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ. [¶125] Soc. Well then, could we ever know what art makes the man himself better, if we were ignorant of what we are ourselves? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δέ; τίς τέχνη βελτίω ποιεῖ αὐτόν, ἆρʼ ἄν ποτε γνοῖμεν ἀγνοοῦντες τί ποτʼ ἐσμὲν αὐτοί; [¶126] 129a. Alc. Impossible. > Greek: 129a. ΑΛ. ἀδύνατον. [¶127] Soc. Well, and is it an easy thing to know oneself, and was it a mere scamp who inscribed these words on the temple at Delphi; or is it a hard thing, and not a task for anybody? > Greek: ΣΩ. πότερον οὖν δὴ ῥᾴδιον τυγχάνει τὸ γνῶναι ἑαυτόν, καί τις ἦν φαῦλος ὁ τοῦτο ἀναθεὶς εἰς τὸν ἐν Πυθοῖ νεών, ἢ χαλεπόν τι καὶ οὐχὶ παντός; [¶128] Alc. I have often thought, Socrates, that it was for anybody; but often, too, that it was very hard. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἐμοὶ μέν, ὦ Σώκρατες, πολλάκις μὲν ἔδοξε παντὸς εἶναι, πολλάκις δὲ παγχάλεπον. [¶129] Soc. But, Alcibiades, whether it is easy or not, here is the fact for us all the same: if we have that knowledge, we are like to know what pains to take over ourselves; but if we have it not, we never can. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, εἴτε ῥᾴδιον εἴτε μή ἐστιν, ὅμως γε ἡμῖν ὧδʼ ἔχει· γνόντες μὲν αὐτὸ τάχʼ ἂν γνοῖμεν τὴν ἐπιμέλειαν ἡμῶν αὐτῶν, ἀγνοοῦντες δὲ οὐκ ἄν ποτε. [¶130] Alc. That is so. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔστι ταῦτα. [¶131] 129b. Soc. Come then, in what way can the same-in-itself be discovered? For thus we may discover what we are ourselves; whereas if we remain in ignorance of it we must surely fail. > Greek: 129b. ΣΩ. φέρε δή, τίνʼ ἂν τρόπον εὑρεθείη αὐτὸ ταὐτό; οὕτω μὲν γὰρ ἂν τάχʼ εὕροιμεν τί ποτʼ ἐσμὲν αὐτοί, τούτου δʼ ἔτι ὄντες ἐν ἀγνοίᾳ ἀδύνατοί που. [¶132] Alc. Rightly spoken. > Greek: ΑΛ. ὀρθῶς λέγεις. [¶133] Soc. Steady, then, in Heaven’s name! To whom are you talking now? To me, are you not? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔχε οὖν πρὸς Διός. τῷ διαλέγῃ σὺ νῦν; ἄλλο τι ἢ ἐμοί; [¶134] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶135] Soc. And I in turn to you? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἐγὼ σοί; [¶136] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶137] Soc. Then the talker is Socrates? > Greek: ΣΩ. Σωκράτης ἄρʼ ἐστὶν ὁ διαλεγόμενος; [¶138] Alc. To be sure. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶139] Soc. And the hearer, Alcibiades? > Greek: ΣΩ. Ἀλκιβιάδης δʼ ὁ ἀκούων; [¶140] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶141] Soc. And Socrates uses speech in talking? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν λόγῳ διαλέγεται ὁ Σωκράτης; [¶142] 129c. Alc. Of course. Soc. And you call talking and using speech the same thing, I suppose. Alc. To be sure. Soc. But the user and the thing he uses are different, are they not? Alc. How do you mean? Soc. For instance, I suppose a shoemaker uses a round tool, and a square one, and others, when he cuts. Alc. Yes. Soc. And the cutter and user is quite different from what he uses in cutting? Alc. Of course. Soc. And in the same way what the harper uses in harping will be different from the harper himself? Alc. Yes. Soc. Well then, that is what I was asking just now—whether the user and what he uses are always, in your opinion, two different things. > Greek: 129c. ΑΛ. τί μήν; ΣΩ. τὸ δὲ διαλέγεσθαι καὶ τὸ λόγῳ χρῆσθαι ταὐτόν που καλεῖς. ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. ΣΩ. ὁ δὲ χρώμενος καὶ ᾧ χρῆται οὐκ ἄλλο; ΑΛ. πῶς λέγεις; ΣΩ. ὥσπερ σκυτοτόμος τέμνει που τομεῖ καὶ σμίλῃ καὶ ἄλλοις ὀργάνοις. ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἄλλο μὲν ὁ τέμνων καὶ χρώμενος, ἄλλο δὲ οἷς τέμνων χρῆται; ΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὕτως καὶ οἷς ὁ κιθαριστὴς κιθαρίζει καὶ αὐτὸς ὁ κιθαριστὴς ἄλλο ἂν εἴη; ΑΛ. ναί. [¶143] 129d. Alc. They are. Soc. Then what are we to say of the shoemaker? Does he cut with his tools only, or with his hands as well? Alc. With his hands as well. Soc. So he uses these also? Alc. Yes. Soc. Does he use his eyes, too, in his shoe-making? Alc. Yes. Soc. And we admit that the user and what he uses are different things? Alc. Yes. Soc. Then the shoemaker and the harper are different from the hands and eyes that they use for their work? > Greek: 129d. ΣΩ. τοῦτο τοίνυν ἀρτίως ἠρώτων, εἰ ὁ χρώμενος καὶ ᾧ χρῆται ἀεὶ δοκεῖ ἕτερον εἶναι. ΑΛ. δοκεῖ. ΣΩ. τί οὖν φῶμεν τὸν σκυτοτόμον; τέμνειν ὀργάνοις μόνον ἢ καὶ χερσίν; ΑΛ. καὶ χερσίν. ΣΩ. χρῆται ἄρα καὶ ταύταις; ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. ἦ καὶ τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς χρώμενος σκυτοτομεῖ; ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. τὸν δὲ χρώμενον καὶ οἷς χρῆται ἕτερα ὁμολογοῦμεν; ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. ἕτερον ἄρα σκυτοτόμος καὶ κιθαριστὴς χειρῶν καὶ ὀφθαλμῶν οἷς ἐργάζονται; [¶144] 129e. Alc. Apparently. > Greek: 129e. ΑΛ. φαίνεται. [¶145] Soc. And man uses his whole body too? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ παντὶ τῷ σώματι χρῆται ἅνθρωπος; [¶146] Alc. To be sure. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶147] Soc. And we said that the user and what he uses are different? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἕτερον δʼ ἦν τό τε χρώμενον καὶ ᾧ χρῆται; [¶148] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶149] Soc. So man is different from his own body? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἕτερον ἄρα ἅνθρωπός ἐστι τοῦ σώματος τοῦ ἑαυτοῦ; [¶150] Alc. It seems so. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔοικεν. [¶151] Soc. Then whatever is man? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί ποτʼ οὖν ὁ ἄνθρωπος; [¶152] Alc. I cannot say. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐκ ἔχω λέγειν. [¶153] Soc. Oh, but you can—that he is the user of the body. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔχεις μὲν οὖν, ὅτι γε τὸ τῷ σώματι χρώμενον. [¶154] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶155] 130a. Soc. And the user of it must be the soul? > Greek: 130a. ΣΩ. ἦ οὖν ἄλλο τι χρῆται αὐτῷ ἢ ψυχή; [¶156] Alc. It must. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐκ ἄλλο. [¶157] Soc. And ruler? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἄρχουσα; [¶158] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶159] Soc. Now, here is a remark from which no one, I think, can dissent. > Greek: ΣΩ. καὶ μὴν τόδε γʼ οἶμαι οὐδένα ἂν ἄλλως οἰηθῆναι. [¶160] Alc. What is it? > Greek: ΑΛ. τὸ ποῖον; [¶161] Soc. That man must be one of three things. > Greek: ΣΩ. μὴ οὐ τριῶν ἕν γέ τι εἶναι τὸν ἄνθρωπον. [¶162] Alc. What things? > Greek: ΑΛ. τίνων; [¶163] Soc. Soul, body, or both together as one whole. > Greek: ΣΩ. ψυχὴν ἢ σῶμα ἢ συναμφότερον, τὸ ὅλον τοῦτο. [¶164] Alc. Very well. > Greek: ΑΛ. τί μήν; [¶165] Soc. But yet we have admitted that what actually rules the body is man? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν αὐτό γε τὸ τοῦ σώματος ἄρχον ὡμολογήσαμεν ἄνθρωπον εἶναι; [¶166] 130b. Alc. We have. > Greek: 130b. ΑΛ. ὡμολογήσαμεν. [¶167] Soc. And does the body rule itself? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν σῶμα αὐτὸ αὑτοῦ ἄρχει; [¶168] Alc. By no means. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐδαμῶς. [¶169] Soc. Because we have said that it is ruled. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἄρχεσθαι γὰρ αὐτὸ εἴπομεν. [¶170] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶171] Soc. Then that cannot be what we are seeking. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκ ἂν δὴ τοῦτό γε εἴη ὃ ζητοῦμεν. [¶172] Alc. It seems not. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐκ ἔοικεν. [¶173] Soc. Well then, does the combination of the two rule the body, so that we are to regard this as man? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ἄρα τὸ συναμφότερον τοῦ σώματος ἄρχει, καὶ ἔστι δὴ τοῦτο ἄνθρωπος; [¶174] Alc. Perhaps it is. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἴσως δῆτα. [¶175] Soc. The unlikeliest thing in the world: for if one of the two does not share in the rule, it is quite inconceivable that the combination of the two can be ruling. > Greek: ΣΩ. πάντων γε ἥκιστα· μὴ γὰρ συνάρχοντος τοῦ ἑτέρου οὐδεμία που μηχανὴ τὸ συναμφότερον ἄρχειν. [¶176] Alc. You are right. > Greek: ΑΛ. ὀρθῶς. [¶177] 130c. Soc. But since neither the body nor the combination of the two is man, we are reduced, I suppose, to this: either man is nothing at all, or if something, he turns out to be nothing else than soul. > Greek: 130c. ΣΩ. ἐπειδὴ δʼ οὔτε σῶμα οὔτε τὸ συναμφότερόν ἐστιν ἄνθρωπος, λείπεται οἶμαι ἢ μηδὲν αὔτʼ εἶναι, ἢ εἴπερ τί ἐστι, μηδὲν ἄλλο τὸν ἄνθρωπον συμβαίνειν ἢ ψυχήν. [¶178] Alc. Precisely so. > Greek: ΑΛ. κομιδῇ μὲν οὖν. [¶179] Soc. Well, do you require some yet clearer proof that the soul is man? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔτι οὖν τι σαφέστερον δεῖ ἀποδειχθῆναί σοι ὅτι ἡ ψυχή ἐστιν ἄνθρωπος; [¶180] Alc. No, I assure you: I think it is amply proved. > Greek: ΑΛ. μὰ Δία, ἀλλʼ ἱκανῶς μοι δοκεῖ ἔχειν. [¶181] Soc. And if it is tolerably, though not exactly, we are content; exact knowledge will be ours later, when we have discovered the thing that we passed over just now because it would involve much consideration. > Greek: ΣΩ. εἰ δέ γε μὴ ἀκριβῶς ἀλλὰ καὶ μετρίως, ἐξαρκεῖ ἡμῖν· ἀκριβῶς μὲν γὰρ τότε εἰσόμεθα, ὅταν εὕρωμεν ὃ νυνδὴ παρήλθομεν διὰ τὸ πολλῆς εἶναι σκέψεως. [¶182] 130d. Alc. What is that? Soc. The point suggested in that remark a moment ago, that we should first consider the same-in-itself; but so far, instead of the same, we have been considering what each single thing is in itself. And perhaps we shall be satisfied with that: for surely we cannot say that anything has more absolute possession of ourselves than the soul. Alc. No, indeed. Soc. And it is proper to take the view that you and I are conversing with each other, while we make use of words, by intercourse of soul with soul? Alc. Quite so. > Greek: 130d. ΑΛ. τί τοῦτο; ΣΩ. ὃ ἄρτι οὕτω πως ἐρρήθη, ὅτι πρῶτον σκεπτέον εἴη αὐτὸ τὸ αὐτό· νῦν δὲ ἀντὶ τοῦ αὐτοῦ αὐτὸ ἕκαστον ἐσκέμμεθα ὅτι ἐστί. καὶ ἴσως ἐξαρκέσει· οὐ γάρ που κυριώτερόν γε οὐδὲν ἂν ἡμῶν αὐτῶν φήσαιμεν ἢ τὴν ψυχήν. ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καλῶς ἔχει οὕτω νομίζειν, ἐμὲ καὶ σὲ προσομιλεῖν ἀλλήλοις τοῖς λόγοις χρωμένους τῇ ψυχῇ πρὸς τὴν ψυχήν; [¶183] 130e. Soc. Well, that is just what we suggested a little while ago—that Socrates, in using words to talk with Alcibiades, is holding speech, not with your face, it would seem, but with Alcibiades—that is, with his soul. Alc. I believe so. Soc. Then he who enjoins a knowledge of oneself bids us become acquainted with the soul. > Greek: 130e. ΑΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. ΣΩ. τοῦτʼ ἄρα ἦν ὃ καὶ ὀλίγῳ ἔμπροσθεν εἴπομεν, ὅτι Σωκράτης Ἀλκιβιάδῃ διαλέγεται λόγῳ χρώμενος, οὐ πρὸς τὸ σὸν πρόσωπον, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἀλλὰ πρὸς τὸν Ἀλκιβιάδην ποιούμενος τοὺς λόγους· τοῦτο δέ ἐστιν ἡ ψυχή. ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. ΣΩ. ψυχὴν ἄρα ἡμᾶς κελεύει γνωρίσαι ὁ ἐπιτάττων γνῶναι ἑαυτόν. [¶184] 131a. Alc. So it seems. > Greek: 131a. ΑΛ. ἔοικεν. [¶185] Soc. And anyone who gets to know something belonging to the body knows the things that are his, but not himself. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὅστις ἄρα τῶν τοῦ σώματός τι γιγνώσκει, τὰ αὑτοῦ ἀλλʼ οὐχ αὑτὸν ἔγνωκεν. [¶186] Alc. That is so. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὕτως. [¶187] Soc. Then no physician, in so far as he is a physician, knows himself, nor does any trainer, in so far as he is a trainer. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐδεὶς ἄρα τῶν ἰατρῶν ἑαυτὸν γιγνώσκει, καθʼ ὅσον ἰατρός, οὐδὲ τῶν παιδοτριβῶν, καθʼ ὅσον παιδοτρίβης. [¶188] Alc. It seems not. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐκ ἔοικεν. [¶189] Soc. And farmers, and craftsmen generally, are far from knowing themselves. For these people, it would seem, do not even know their own things, but only things still more remote than their own things, in respect of the arts which they follow; since they know but the things of the body, with which it is tended. > Greek: ΣΩ. πολλοῦ ἄρα δέουσιν οἱ γεωργοὶ καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι δημιουργοὶ γιγνώσκειν ἑαυτούς. οὐδὲ γὰρ τὰ ἑαυτῶν οὗτοί γε, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἀλλʼ ἔτι πορρωτέρω τῶν ἑαυτῶν κατά γε τὰς τέχνας ἃς ἔχουσιν· [¶190] 131b. Alc. That is true. Soc. So if knowing oneself is temperance, none of these people is temperate in respect of his art. Alc. None, I agree. Soc. And that is why these arts are held to be sordid, and no acquirements for a good man. Alc. Quite so. Soc. Then once again, whoever tends his body tends his own things, but not himself? Alc. It looks rather like it. Soc. But whoever tends his money tends neither himself nor his own things, but only things yet more remote than his own things? > Greek: 131b. τὰ γὰρ τοῦ σώματος γιγνώσκουσιν, οἷς τοῦτο θεραπεύεται. ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. ΣΩ. εἰ ἄρα σωφροσύνη ἐστὶ τὸ ἑαυτὸν γιγνώσκειν, οὐδεὶς τούτων σώφρων κατὰ τὴν τέχνην. ΑΛ. οὔ μοι δοκεῖ. ΣΩ. διὰ ταῦτα δὴ καὶ βάναυσοι αὗται αἱ τέχναι δοκοῦσιν εἶναι καὶ οὐκ ἀνδρὸς ἀγαθοῦ μαθήματα. ΑΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν πάλιν ὅστις αὖ σῶμα θεραπεύει, τὰ ἑαυτοῦ ἀλλʼ οὐχ αὑτὸν θεραπεύει; ΑΛ. κινδυνεύει. ΣΩ. ὅστις δέ γε τὰ χρήματα, οὔθʼ ἑαυτὸν οὔτε τὰ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλʼ ἔτι πορρωτέρω τῶν ἑαυτοῦ; [¶191] 131c. Alc. I agree. > Greek: 131c. ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. [¶192] Soc. So that the money-maker has ceased to do his own business. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐ τὰ αὑτοῦ ἄρα ἔτι πράττει ὁ χρηματιστής. [¶193] Alc. Correct. > Greek: ΑΛ. ὀρθῶς. [¶194] Soc. And if anyone is found to be a lover of Alcibiades’ body, he has fallen in love, not with Alcibiades, but with something belonging to Alcibiades? > Greek: ΣΩ. εἰ ἄρα τις γέγονεν ἐραστὴς τοῦ Ἀλκιβιάδου σώματος, οὐκ Ἀλκιβιάδου ἄρα ἠράσθη ἀλλά τινος τῶν Ἀλκιβιάδου. [¶195] Alc. That is true. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. [¶196] Soc. Your lover is rather he who loves your soul? > Greek: ΣΩ. ὅστις δέ σου τῆς ψυχῆς ἐρᾷ; [¶197] Alc. He must be, apparently, by our argument. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀνάγκη φαίνεται ἐκ τοῦ λόγου. [¶198] Soc. And he who loves your body quits you, and is gone, as soon as its bloom is over? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ὁ μὲν τοῦ σώματός σου ἐρῶν, ἐπειδὴ λήγει ἀνθοῦν, ἀπιὼν οἴχεται; [¶199] Alc. Apparently. > Greek: ΑΛ. φαίνεται. [¶200] 131d. Soc. Whereas he who loves your soul will not quit you so long as it makes for what is better? Alc. So it seems. Soc. And I am he who does not quit you, but remains with you when your body’s prime is over, and the rest have departed. Alc. Yes, and I am glad of it, Socrates, and hope you will not go. Soc. Then you must endeavor to be as handsome as you can. Alc. Well, I shall endeavor. Soc. You see how you stand: Alcibiades, the son of Cleinias, it seems, neither had nor has any lover except one only, and that a cherished one, Socrates, the son of Sophroniscus and Phaenarete. > Greek: 131d. ΣΩ. ὁ δέ γε τῆς ψυχῆς ἐρῶν οὐκ ἄπεισιν, ἕως ἂν ἐπὶ τὸ βέλτιον ἴῃ; ΑΛ. εἰκός γε. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ οὐκ ἀπιὼν ἀλλὰ παραμένων λήγοντος τοῦ σώματος, τῶν ἄλλων ἀπεληλυθότων. ΑΛ. εὖ γε ποιῶν, ὦ Σώκρατες· καὶ μηδὲ ἀπέλθοις. ΣΩ. προθυμοῦ τοίνυν ὅτι κάλλιστος εἶναι. ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ προθυμήσομαι. [¶201] 131e. Alc. True. Soc. And you said that I only just anticipated you in coming to you, for otherwise you would have come to me first for the purpose of inquiring why I am the only one who does not leave you? Alc. Yes, that was so. > Greek: 131e. ΣΩ. ὡς οὕτω γέ σοι ἔχει· οὔτʼ ἐγένεθʼ, ὡς ἔοικεν, Ἀλκιβιάδῃ τῷ Κλεινίου ἐραστὴς οὔτʼ ἔστιν ἀλλʼ ἢ εἷς μόνος, καὶ οὗτος ἀγαπητός, Σωκράτης ὁ Σωφρονίσκου καὶ Φαιναρέτης. ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἔφησθα σμικρὸν φθῆναί με προσελθόντα σοι, ἐπεὶ πρότερος ἄν μοι προσελθεῖν, βουλόμενος πυθέσθαι διʼ ὅτι μόνος οὐκ ἀπέρχομαι; ΑΛ. ἦν γὰρ οὕτω. [¶202] 132. Soc. Then the reason was that I was the only lover of you, whereas the rest were lovers of what is yours; and that is losing its charm, while you are beginning to bloom. > Greek: 132. ΣΩ. τοῦτο τοίνυν αἴτιον, ὅτι μόνος ἐραστὴς ἦν σός, οἱ δʼ ἄλλοι τῶν σῶν· τὰ δὲ σὰ λήγει ὥρας, σὺ δʼ ἄρχῃ ἀνθεῖν. [¶203] 132a. So now, if you are not blighted and deformed by the Athenian people, I shall never forsake you. For my chiefest fear is of your being blighted by becoming a lover of the people, since many a good Athenian has come to that ere now. For fair of face is the people of great-hearted Erechtheus; but you should get a view of it stripped: so take the precaution that I recommend. > Greek: 132a. καὶ νῦν γε ἂν μὴ διαφθαρῇς ὑπὸ τοῦ Ἀθηναίων δήμου καὶ αἰσχίων γένῃ, οὐ μή σε ἀπολίπω. τοῦτο γὰρ δὴ μάλιστα ἐγὼ φοβοῦμαι, μὴ δημεραστὴς ἡμῖν γενόμενος διαφθαρῇς· πολλοὶ γὰρ ἤδη καὶ ἀγαθοὶ αὐτὸ πεπόνθασιν Ἀθηναίων. εὐπρόσωπος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ μεγαλήτορος δῆμος Ἐρεχθέως· ἀλλʼ ἀποδύντα χρὴ αὐτὸν θεάσασθαι. εὐλαβοῦ οὖν τὴν εὐλάβειαν ἣν ἐγὼ λέγω. [¶204] Alc. What is it? > Greek: ΑΛ. τίνα; [¶205] 132b. Soc. Exercise yourself first, my wonderful friend, in learning what you ought to know before entering on politics; you must wait till you have learnt, in order that you may be armed with an antidote and so come to no harm. > Greek: 132b. ΣΩ. γύμνασαι πρῶτον, ὦ μακάριε, καὶ μάθε ἃ δεῖ μαθόντα ἰέναι ἐπὶ τὰ τῆς πόλεως, πρότερον δὲ μή, ἵνʼ ἀλεξιφάρμακα ἔχων ἴῃς καὶ μηδὲν πάθῃς δεινόν. [¶206] Alc. Your advice seems to me good, Socrates; but try to explain in what way we can take pains over ourselves. > Greek: ΑΛ. εὖ μοι δοκεῖς λέγειν, ὦ Σώκρατες· ἀλλὰ πειρῶ ἐξηγεῖσθαι ὅντινʼ ἂν τρόπον ἐπιμεληθεῖμεν ἡμῶν αὐτῶν. [¶207] Soc. Well, we have made one step in advance; for there is a pretty fair agreement now as to what we are, whereas we were afraid we might fail of this and take pains, without knowing it, over something other than ourselves. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τοσοῦτον μὲν ἡμῖν εἰς τὸ πρόσθεν πεπέρανται —ὃ γὰρ ἐσμέν, ἐπιεικῶς ὡμολόγηται—ἐφοβούμεθα δὲ μὴ τούτου σφαλέντες λάθωμεν ἑτέρου τινὸς ἐπιμελόμενοι ἀλλʼ οὐχ ἡμῶν. [¶208] Alc. That is so. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔστι ταῦτα. [¶209] 132c. Soc. And the next step, we see, is to take care of the soul, and look to that. > Greek: 132c. ΣΩ. καὶ μετὰ τοῦτο δὴ ὅτι ψυχῆς ἐπιμελητέον καὶ εἰς τοῦτο βλεπτέον. [¶210] Alc. Clearly. > Greek: ΑΛ. δῆλον. [¶211] Soc. While handing over to others the care of our bodies and our coffers. > Greek: ΣΩ. σωμάτων δὲ καὶ χρημάτων τὴν ἐπιμέλειαν ἑτέροις παραδοτέον. [¶212] Alc. Quite so. > Greek: ΑΛ. τί μήν; [¶213] Soc. Then how shall we obtain the most certain knowledge of it? For if we know that, it seems we shall know ourselves also. In Heaven’s name, do we fail to comprehend the wise words of the Delphic inscription, which we mentioned just now? > Greek: ΣΩ. τίνʼ οὖν ἂν τρόπον γνοῖμεν αὐτὸ ἐναργέστατα; ἐπειδὴ τοῦτο γνόντες, ὡς ἔοικεν, καὶ ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς γνωσόμεθα. ἆρα πρὸς θεῶν εὖ λέγοντος οὗ νυνδὴ ἐμνήσθημεν τοῦ Δελφικοῦ γράμματος οὐ συνίεμεν; [¶214] Alc. With what intent do you say that, Socrates? > Greek: ΑΛ. τὸ ποῖόν τι διανοούμενος λέγεις, ὦ Σώκρατες; [¶215] 132d. Soc. I will tell you what I suspect to be the real advice which the inscription gives us. I rather think there are not many illustrations of it to be found, but only in the case of sight. > Greek: 132d. ΣΩ. ἐγώ σοι φράσω, ὅ γε ὑποπτεύω λέγειν καὶ συμβουλεύειν ἡμῖν τοῦτο τὸ γράμμα. κινδυνεύει γὰρ οὐδὲ πολλαχοῦ εἶναι παράδειγμα αὐτοῦ, ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὴν ὄψιν μόνον. [¶216] Alc. What do you mean by that? > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς τοῦτο λέγεις; [¶217] Soc. Consider in your turn: suppose that, instead of speaking to a man, it said to the eye of one of us, as a piece of advice “See thyself,” how should we apprehend the meaning of the admonition? Would it not be, that the eye should look at that by looking at which it would see itself? > Greek: ΣΩ. σκόπει καὶ σύ. εἰ ἡμῶν τῷ ὄμματι ὥσπερ ἀνθρώπῳ συμβουλεῦον εἶπεν ἰδὲ σαυτόν, πῶς ἂν ὑπελάβομεν τί παραινεῖν; ἆρα οὐχὶ εἰς τοῦτο βλέπειν, εἰς ὃ βλέπων ὁ ὀφθαλμὸς ἔμελλεν αὑτὸν ἰδεῖν; [¶218] Alc. Clearly. > Greek: ΑΛ. δῆλον. [¶219] Soc. Then let us think what object there is anywhere, by looking at which we can see both it and ourselves. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἐννοῶμεν δὴ εἰς τί βλέποντες τῶν ὄντων ἐκεῖνό τε ὁρῷμεν ἅμα ἂν καὶ ἡμᾶς αὐτούς; [¶220] 132e. Alc. Why, clearly, Socrates, mirrors and things of that sort. > Greek: 132e. ΑΛ. δῆλον δή, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὅτι εἰς κάτοπτρά τε καὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα. [¶221] Soc. Quite right. And there is also something of that sort in the eye that we see with? > Greek: ΣΩ. ὀρθῶς λέγεις. οὐκοῦν καὶ τῷ ὀφθαλμῷ ᾧ ὁρῶμεν ἔνεστί ⟨τι⟩ τῶν τοιούτων; [¶222] Alc. To be sure. > Greek: ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. [¶223] 133. Soc. And have you observed that the face of the person who looks into another’s eye is shown in the optic confronting him, as in a mirror, and we call this the pupil, for in a sort it is an image of the person looking? > Greek: 133. ΣΩ. ἐννενόηκας οὖν ὅτι τοῦ ἐμβλέποντος εἰς τὸν ὀφθαλμὸν τὸ πρόσωπον ἐμφαίνεται ἐν τῇ τοῦ καταντικρὺ ὄψει ὥσπερ ἐν κατόπτρῳ, ὃ δὴ καὶ κόρην καλοῦμεν, εἴδωλον ὄν τι τοῦ ἐμβλέποντος; [¶224] Alc. That is true. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. [¶225] Soc. Then an eye viewing another eye, and looking at the most perfect part of it, the thing wherewith it sees, will thus see itself. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὀφθαλμὸς ἄρα ὀφθαλμὸν θεώμενος, καὶ ἐμβλέπων εἰς τοῦτο ὅπερ βέλτιστον αὐτοῦ καὶ ᾧ ὁρᾷ, οὕτως ἂν αὑτὸν ἴδοι. [¶226] Alc. Apparently. > Greek: ΑΛ. φαίνεται. [¶227] Soc. But if it looks at any other thing in man or at anything in nature but what resembles this, it will not see itself. > Greek: ΣΩ. εἰ δέ γʼ εἰς ἄλλο τῶν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου βλέποι ἤ τι τῶν ὄντων, πλὴν εἰς ἐκεῖνο ᾧ τοῦτο τυγχάνει ὅμοιον, οὐκ ὄψεται ἑαυτόν. [¶228] Alc. That is true. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. [¶229] Soc. Then if an eye is to see itself, it must look at an eye, and at that region of the eye in which the virtue of an eye is found to occur; and this, I presume, is sight. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὀφθαλμὸς ἄρʼ εἰ μέλλει ἰδεῖν αὑτόν, εἰς ὀφθαλμὸν αὐτῷ βλεπτέον, καὶ τοῦ ὄμματος εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον ἐν ᾧ τυγχάνει ἡ ὀφθαλμοῦ ἀρετὴ ἐγγιγνομένη· ἔστι δὲ τοῦτό που ὄψις; [¶230] Alc. That is so. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὕτως. [¶231] Soc. And if the soul too, my dear Alcibiades, is to know herself, she must surely look at a soul, and especially at that region of it in which occurs the virtue of a soul—wisdom, and at any other part of a soul which resembles this? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν, ὦ φίλε Ἀλκιβιάδη, καὶ ψυχὴ εἰ μέλλει γνώσεσθαι αὑτήν, εἰς ψυχὴν αὐτῇ βλεπτέον, καὶ μάλιστʼ εἰς τοῦτον αὐτῆς τὸν τόπον ἐν ᾧ ἐγγίγνεται ἡ ψυχῆς ἀρετή, σοφία, καὶ εἰς ἄλλο ᾧ τοῦτο τυγχάνει ὅμοιον ὄν; [¶232] Alc. I agree, Socrates. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶233] 133c. Soc. And can we find any part of the soul that we can call more divine than this, which is the seat of knowledge and thought? Alc. We cannot. Soc. Then this part of her resembles God, and whoever looks at this, and comes to know all that is divine, will gain thereby the best knowledge of himself. Alc. Apparently. Soc. And self-knowledge we admitted to be temperance. Alc. To be sure. Soc. So if we have no knowledge of ourselves and no temperance, shall we be able to know our own belongings, good or evil? Alc. How can that be, Socrates? > Greek: 133c. ΣΩ. ἔχομεν οὖν εἰπεῖν ὅτι ἐστὶ τῆς ψυχῆς θειότερον ἢ τοῦτο, περὶ ὃ τὸ εἰδέναι τε καὶ φρονεῖν ἐστιν; ΑΛ. οὐκ ἔχομεν. ΣΩ. τῷ θεῷ ἄρα τοῦτʼ ἔοικεν αὐτῆς, καί τις εἰς τοῦτο βλέπων καὶ πᾶν τὸ θεῖον γνούς, θεόν τε καὶ φρόνησιν, οὕτω καὶ ἑαυτὸν ἂν γνοίη μάλιστα. ΑΛ. φαίνεται. ⟨ ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν, ὅθʼ ὥσπερ κάτοπτρά ἐστι σαφέστερα τοῦ ἐν τῷ ὀφθαλμῷ ἐνόπτρου καὶ καθαρώτερα καὶ λαμπρότερα, οὕτω καὶ ὁ θεὸς τοῦ ἐν τῇ ἡμετέρᾳ ψυχῇ βελτίστου καθαρώτερόν τε καὶ λαμπρότερον τυγχάνει ὄν;⟩ ⟨ ΑΛ. ἔοικέ γε, ὦ Σώκρατες.⟩ ⟨ ΣΩ. εἰς τὸν θεὸν ἄρα βλέποντες ἐκείνῳ καλλίστῳ ἐνόπτρῳ χρῴμεθʼ ἂν καὶ τῶν ἀνθρωπίνων εἰς τὴν ψυχῆς ἀρετήν, καὶ οὕτως ἂν μάλιστα ὁρῷμεν καὶ γιγνώσκοιμεν ἡμᾶς αὐτούς.⟩ ⟨ ΑΛ. ναί.⟩ ΣΩ. τὸ δὲ γιγνώσκειν αὑτὸν ὡμολογοῦμεν σωφροσύνην εἶναι; ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν μὴ γιγνώσκοντες ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς μηδὲ σώφρονες ὄντες δυναίμεθʼ ἂν εἰδέναι τὰ ἡμέτερα αὐτῶν κακά τε καὶ ἀγαθά; ΑΛ. καὶ πῶς ἂν τοῦτο γένοιτο, ὦ Σώκρατες; [¶234] 133d. Soc. For I expect it seems impossible to you that without knowing Alcibiades you should know that the belongings of Alcibiades are in fact his. > Greek: 133d. ΣΩ. ἀδύνατον γὰρ ἴσως σοι φαίνεται μὴ γιγνώσκοντα Ἀλκιβιάδην τὰ Ἀλκιβιάδου γιγνώσκειν ὅτι Ἀλκιβιάδου ἐστίν. [¶235] Alc. Impossible indeed, upon my word. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀδύνατον μέντοι νὴ Δία. [¶236] Soc. Nor could we know that our belongings are ours if we did not even know ourselves? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐδʼ ἄρα τὰ ἡμέτερα ὅτι ἡμέτερα, εἰ μηδʼ ἡμᾶς αὐτούς; [¶237] Alc. How could we? > Greek: ΑΛ. πῶς γάρ; [¶238] Soc. And so, if we did not so much as know our belongings, we could not know the belongings of our belongings either? > Greek: ΣΩ. εἰ δʼ ἄρα μηδὲ τὰ ἡμέτερα, οὐδὲ τὰ τῶν ἡμετέρων; [¶239] Alc. Apparently not. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ φαίνεται. [¶240] Soc. Then we were not quite correct in admitting just now that there are people who, without knowing themselves, know their belongings, while others know their belongings’ belongings. For it seems to be the function of one man and one art to discern all three— himself, his belongings, and the belongings of his belongings. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα πάνυ τι ὀρθῶς ὡμολογοῦμεν ὁμολογοῦντες ἄρτι εἶναί τινας οἳ ἑαυτοὺς μὲν οὐ γιγνώσκουσιν, τὰ δʼ αὑτῶν, ἄλλους δὲ τὰ τῶν ἑαυτῶν. ἔοικε γὰρ πάντα ταῦτα εἶναι κατιδεῖν ἑνός τε καὶ μιᾶς τέχνης, αὑτόν, τὰ αὑτοῦ, τὰ τῶν ἑαυτοῦ. [¶241] 133e. Alc. It looks like it. > Greek: 133e. ΑΛ. κινδυνεύει. [¶242] Soc. And anyone who is ignorant of his belongings will be similarly ignorant, I suppose, of the belongings of others. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὅστις δὲ τὰ αὑτοῦ ἀγνοεῖ, καὶ τὰ τῶν ἄλλων που ἂν ἀγνοοῖ κατὰ ταὐτά. [¶243] Alc. Quite so. > Greek: ΑΛ. τί μήν; [¶244] Soc. And if ignorant of others’ affairs, he will be ignorant also of the affairs of states. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἰ τὰ τῶν ἄλλων, καὶ τὰ τῶν πόλεων ἀγνοήσει. [¶245] Alc. He must be. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀνάγκη. [¶246] Soc. Then such a man can never be a statesman. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρʼ ἂν γένοιτο ὁ τοιοῦτος ἀνὴρ πολιτικός. [¶247] Alc. No, indeed. > Greek: ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶248] Soc. No, nor an economist either. > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐ μὴν οὐδʼ οἰκονομικός γε. [¶249] 134a. Alc. No, indeed. Soc. Nor will he know what he is doing. Alc. No, I agree. Soc. And will not he who does not know make mistakes? Alc. To be sure. Soc. And when he makes mistakes, will he not do ill both in private and in public? Alc. Of course. Soc. And doing ill he will be wretched? Alc. Yes, very. Soc. And what of those for whom he is doing so? Alc. They will be wretched also. Soc. Then it is impossible to be happy if one is not temperate and good. Alc. Impossible. > Greek: 134a. ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. ΣΩ. οὐδέ γε εἴσεται ὅτι πράττει. ΑΛ. οὐ γὰρ οὖν. ΣΩ. ὁ δὲ μὴ εἰδὼς οὐχ ἁμαρτήσεται; ΑΛ. πάνυ γε. ΣΩ. ἐξαμαρτάνων δὲ οὐ κακῶς πράξει ἰδίᾳ τε καὶ δημοσίᾳ; ΑΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ; ΣΩ. κακῶς δὲ πράττων οὐκ ἄθλιος; ΑΛ. σφόδρα γε. ΣΩ. τί δʼ οἷς οὗτος πράττει; ΑΛ. καὶ οὗτοι. ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα οἷόν τε, ἐὰν μή τις σώφρων καὶ ἀγαθὸς ᾖ, εὐδαίμονα εἶναι. [¶250] 134b. Soc. So it is the bad men who are wretched. Alc. Yes, very. Soc. And hence it is not he who has made himself rich that is relieved of wretchedness, but he who has made himself temperate. Alc. Apparently. Soc. So it is not walls or warships or arsenals that cities need, Alcibiades, if they are to be happy, nor numbers, nor size, without virtue. Alc. No, indeed. Soc. And if you are to manage the city’s affairs properly and honorably, you must impart virtue to the citizens. Alc. Of course. > Greek: 134b. ΑΛ. οὐχ οἷόν τε. ΣΩ. οἱ ἄρα κακοὶ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἄθλιοι. ΑΛ. σφόδρα γε. ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα οὐδʼ ὁ πλουτήσας ἀθλιότητος ἀπαλλάττεται, ἀλλʼ ὁ σωφρονήσας. ΑΛ. φαίνεται. ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα τειχῶν οὐδὲ τριήρων οὐδὲ νεωρίων δέονται αἱ πόλεις, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, εἰ μέλλουσιν εὐδαιμονήσειν, οὐδὲ πλήθους οὐδὲ μεγέθους ἄνευ ἀρετῆς. ΑΛ. οὐ μέντοι. ΣΩ. εἰ δὴ μέλλεις τὰ τῆς πόλεως πράξειν ὀρθῶς καὶ καλῶς, ἀρετῆς σοι μεταδοτέον τοῖς πολίταις. [¶251] 134c. Soc. But could one possibly impart a thing that one had not? Alc. How, indeed? Soc. Then you or anyone else who is to be governor and curator, not merely of himself and his belongings in private, but of the state and its affairs, must first acquire virtue himself. Alc. That is true. Soc. Hence it is not licence or authority for doing what one pleases that you have to secure to yourself or the state, but justice and temperance. Alc. Apparently. > Greek: 134c. ΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; ΣΩ. δύναιτο δʼ ἄν τις μεταδιδόναι ὃ μὴ ἔχοι; ΑΛ. καὶ πῶς; ΣΩ. αὐτῷ ἄρα σοὶ πρῶτον κτητέον ἀρετήν, καὶ ἄλλῳ ὃς μέλλει μὴ ἰδίᾳ μόνον αὑτοῦ τε καὶ τῶν αὑτοῦ ἄρξειν καὶ ἐπιμελήσεσθαι, ἀλλὰ πόλεως καὶ τῶν τῆς πόλεως. ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα ἐξουσίαν σοι οὐδʼ ἀρχὴν παρασκευαστέον σαυτῷ ποιεῖν ὅτι ἂν βούλῃ, οὐδὲ τῇ πόλει, ἀλλὰ δικαιοσύνην καὶ σωφροσύνην. ΑΛ. φαίνεται. [¶252] 134d. Soc. For you and the state, if you act justly and temperately, will act so as to please God. > Greek: 134d. ΣΩ. δικαίως μὲν γὰρ πράττοντες καὶ σωφρόνως σύ τε καὶ ἡ πόλις θεοφιλῶς πράξετε. [¶253] Alc. Naturally. > Greek: ΑΛ. εἰκός γε. [¶254] Soc. And, as we were saying in what went before, you will act with your eyes turned on what is divine and bright. > Greek: ΣΩ. καὶ ὅπερ γε ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν ἐλέγομεν, εἰς τὸ θεῖον καὶ λαμπρὸν ὁρῶντες πράξετε. [¶255] Alc. Apparently. > Greek: ΑΛ. φαίνεται. [¶256] Soc. Well, and looking thereon you will behold and know both yourselves and your good. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν ἐνταῦθά γε βλέποντες ὑμᾶς τε αὐτοὺς καὶ τὰ ὑμέτερα ἀγαθὰ κατόψεσθε καὶ γνώσεσθε. [¶257] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶258] Soc. And so you will act aright and well? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ὀρθῶς τε καὶ εὖ πράξετε; [¶259] Alc. Yes. > Greek: ΑΛ. ναί. [¶260] 134e. Soc. Well now, if you act in this way, I am ready to warrant that you must be happy. > Greek: 134e. ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν οὕτω γε πράττοντας ὑμᾶς ἐθέλω ἐγγυήσασθαι ἦ μὴν εὐδαιμονήσειν. [¶261] Alc. And I can rely on your warranty. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀσφαλὴς γὰρ εἶ ἐγγυητής. [¶262] Soc. But if you act unjustly, with your eyes on the godless and dark, the probability is that your acts will resemble these through your ignorance of yourselves. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀδίκως δέ γε πράττοντες, εἰς τὸ ἄθεον καὶ σκοτεινὸν βλέποντες, ὡς τὰ εἰκότα, ὅμοια τούτοις πράξετε ἀγνοοῦντες ὑμᾶς αὐτούς. [¶263] Alc. That is probable. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔοικεν. [¶264] 135. Soc. For if a man, my dear Alcibiades, is at liberty to do what he pleases, but is lacking in mind, what is the probable result to him personally, or to the state as well? For instance, if he is sick and at liberty to do what he pleases—without a medical mind, but with a despot’s power which prevents anyone from even reproving him—what will be the result? > Greek: 135. ΣΩ. ὧι γὰρ ⟨ἄν⟩, ὦ φίλε Ἀλκιβιάδη, ἐξουσία μὲν ᾖ ποιεῖν ὃ βούλεται, νοῦν δὲ μὴ ἔχῃ, τί τὸ εἰκὸς συμβαίνειν, ἰδιώτῃ ἢ καὶ πόλει; οἷον νοσοῦντι ἐξουσίας οὔσης δρᾶν ὃ βούλεται, νοῦν ἰατρικὸν μὴ ἔχοντι, τυραννοῦντι δὲ ὡς μηδὲν ἐπιπλήττοι τις αὐτῷ, τί τὸ συμβησόμενον; [¶265] 135a. Will not his health, in all likelihood, be shattered? > Greek: 135a. ἆρʼ οὐχ, ὡς τὸ εἰκός, διαφθαρῆναι τὸ σῶμα; [¶266] Alc. That is true. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. [¶267] Soc. Again, in a ship, if a man were at liberty to do what he chose, but were devoid of mind and excellence in navigation, do you perceive what must happen to him and his fellow-sailors? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δʼ ἐν νηί, εἴ τῳ ἐξουσία εἴη ποιεῖν ὃ δοκεῖ, νοῦ τε καὶ ἀρετῆς κυβερνητικῆς ἐστερημένῳ, καθορᾷς ἃ ἂν συμβαίη αὐτῷ τε καὶ τοῖς συνναύταις; [¶268] Alc. I do: they must all perish. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἔγωγε, ὅτι γε ἀπόλοιντο πάντες ἄν. [¶269] Soc. And in just the same way, if a state, or any office or authority, is lacking in excellence or virtue, it will be overtaken by failure? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ὡσαύτως ἐν πόλει τε καὶ πάσαις ἀρχαῖς καὶ ἐξουσίαις ἀπολειπομέναις ἀρετῆς ἕπεται τὸ κακῶς πράττειν; [¶270] 135b. Alc. It must. Soc. Then it is not despotic power, my admirable Alcibiades, that you ought to secure either to yourself or to the state, if you would be happy, but virtue. Alc. That is true. Soc. And before getting virtue, to be governed by a superior is better than to govern, for a man as well as a child. Alc. Apparently. Soc. And the better is also nobler? Alc. Yes. Soc. And the nobler more becoming? Alc. Of course. > Greek: 135b. ΑΛ. ἀνάγκη. ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα τυραννίδα χρή, ὦ ἄριστε Ἀλκιβιάδη, παρασκευάζεσθαι οὔθʼ αὑτῷ οὔτε τῇ πόλει, εἰ μέλλετε εὐδαιμονεῖν, ἀλλʼ ἀρετήν. ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. ΣΩ. πρὶν δέ γε ἀρετὴν ἔχειν, τὸ ἄρχεσθαι ἄμεινον ὑπὸ τοῦ βελτίονος ἢ τὸ ἄρχειν ἀνδρί, οὐ μόνον παιδί. ΑΛ. φαίνεται. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τό γʼ ἄμεινον καὶ κάλλιον; ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. τὸ δὲ κάλλιον πρεπωδέστερον; [¶271] 135c. Soc. Then it becomes a bad man to be a slave, since it is better. Alc. Yes. Soc. So vice is a thing that becomes a slave. Alc. Apparently. Soc. And virtue becomes a free man. Alc. Yes. Soc. And we should shun, my good friend, all slavishness? Alc. Most certainly, Socrates. Soc. And do you now perceive how you stand? Are you on the side of the free, or not? Alc. I think I perceive only too clearly. Soc. Then do you know how you may escape from the condition in which you now find yourself? Let us not give it a name, where a handsome person is concerned! > Greek: 135c. ΑΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ; ΣΩ. πρέπει ἄρα τῷ κακῷ δουλεύειν· ἄμεινον γάρ. ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. δουλοπρεπὲς ἄρʼ ἡ κακία. ΑΛ. φαίνεται. ΣΩ. ἐλευθεροπρεπὲς δὲ ἡ ἀρετή. ΑΛ. ναί. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν φεύγειν χρή, ὦ ἑταῖρε, τὴν δουλοπρέπειαν; ΑΛ. μάλιστά γε, ὦ Σώκρατες. ΣΩ. αἰσθάνῃ δὲ νῦν πῶς ἔχεις; ἐλευθεροπρεπῶς ἢ οὔ; ΑΛ. δοκῶ μοι καὶ μάλα σφόδρα αἰσθάνεσθαι. ΣΩ. οἶσθʼ οὖν πῶς ἀποφεύξῃ τοῦτο τὸ περὶ σὲ νῦν; ἵνα μὴ ὀνομάζωμεν αὐτὸ ἐπὶ καλῷ ἀνδρί, ΑΛ. [¶272] 135d. Alc. I do. Soc. How? Alc. If it be your wish, Socrates. Soc. That is not well said, Alcibiades. Alc. Well, what should I say? Soc. If it be God’s will. Alc. Then I say it. And yet I say this besides, that we are like to make a change in our parts, Socrates, so that I shall have yours and you mine. For from this day onward it must be the case that I am your attendant, and you have me always in attendance on you. > Greek: 135d. ἔγωγε. ΣΩ. πῶς; ΑΛ. ἐὰν βούλῃ σύ, ὦ Σώκρατες. ΣΩ. οὐ καλῶς λέγεις, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη. ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ πῶς χρὴ λέγειν; ΣΩ. ὅτι ἐὰν θεὸς ἐθέλῃ. ΑΛ. λέγω δή. καὶ πρὸς τούτοις μέντοι τόδε λέγω, ὅτι κινδυνεύσομεν μεταβαλεῖν τὸ σχῆμα, ὦ Σώκρατες, τὸ μὲν σὸν ἐγώ, σὺ δὲ τοὐμόν· οὐ γὰρ ἔστιν ὅπως οὐ παιδαγωγήσω σε ἀπὸ τῆσδε τῆς ἡμέρας, σὺ δʼ ὑπʼ ἐμοῦ παιδαγωγήσῃ. [¶273] 135e. Soc. Ah, generous friend! So my love will be just like a stork; for after hatching a winged love in you it is to be cherished in return by its nestling. > Greek: 135e. ΣΩ. ὦ γενναῖε, πελαργοῦ ἄρα ὁ ἐμὸς ἔρως οὐδὲν διοίσει, εἰ παρὰ σοὶ ἐννεοττεύσας ἔρωτα ὑπόπτερον ὑπὸ τούτου πάλιν θεραπεύσεται. [¶274] Alc. Well, that is the position, and I shall begin here and now to take pains over justice. > Greek: ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ οὕτως ἔχει, καὶ ἄρξομαί γε ἐντεῦθεν τῆς δικαιοσύνης ἐπιμέλεσθαι. [¶275] Soc. I should like to think you will continue to do so; yet I am apprehensive, not from any distrust of your nature, but in view of the might of the state, lest it overcome both me and you. > Greek: ΣΩ. βουλοίμην ἄν σε καὶ διατελέσαι· ὀρρωδῶ δέ, οὔ τι τῇ σῇ φύσει ἀπιστῶν, ἀλλὰ τὴν τῆς πόλεως ὁρῶν ῥώμην, μὴ ἐμοῦ τε καὶ σοῦ κρατήσῃ.