383. Hermogenes. Here is Socrates; shall we take him as a partner in our discussion?
383. ΕΡΜ. βούλει οὖν καὶ Σωκράτει τῷδε ἀνακοινωσώμεθα τὸν λόγον;
Cratylus. If you like.
ΚΡ. εἴ σοι δοκεῖ.
Hermogenes. Cratylus, whom you see here, Socrates, says that everything has a right name of its own, which comes by nature, and that a name is not whatever people call a thing by agreement, just a piece of their own voice applied to the thing, but that there is a kind of inherent correctness in names, which is the same for all men, both Greeks and barbarians. So I ask him whether his name is in truth Cratylus, and he agrees that it is. “And what is Socrates’ name?” I said. “Socrates,” said he. “Then that applies to all men, and the particular name by which we call each person is his name?” And he said, “Well, your name is not Hermogenes, even if all mankind call you so.”
ΕΡΜ. Κρατύλος φησὶν ὅδε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὀνόματος ὀρθότητα εἶναι ἑκάστῳ τῶν ὄντων φύσει πεφυκυῖαν, καὶ οὐ τοῦτο εἶναι ὄνομα ὃ ἄν τινες συνθέμενοι καλεῖν καλῶσι, τῆς αὑτῶν φωνῆς μόριον ἐπιφθεγγόμενοι, ἀλλὰ ὀρθότητά τινα τῶν ὀνομάτων πεφυκέναι καὶ Ἕλλησι καὶ βαρβάροις τὴν αὐτὴν ἅπασιν. ἐρωτῶ οὖν αὐτὸν ἐγὼ εἰ αὐτῷ Κρατύλος τῇ ἀληθείᾳ ὄνομα [ἐστὶν ἢ οὔ]· ὁ δὲ ὁμολογεῖ. τί δὲ Σωκράτει; ἔφην. Σωκράτης, ἦ δʼ ὅς. οὐκοῦν καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις ἀνθρώποις πᾶσιν, ὅπερ καλοῦμεν ὄνομα ἕκαστον, τοῦτό ἐστιν ἑκάστῳ ὄνομα; ὁ δέ, οὔκουν σοί γε, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ὄνομα Ἑρμογένης, οὐδὲ ἂν πάντες καλῶσιν ἄνθρωποι.
Hermogenes. Now, though I am asking him and am exerting myself to find out what in the world he means, he does not explain himself at all; he meets me with dissimulation, claiming to have some special knowledge of his own about it which would, if he chose to speak it out clearly, make me agree entirely with him.
ΕΡΜ. καὶ ἐμοῦ ἐρωτῶντος καὶ προθυμουμένου εἰδέναι ὅτι ποτὲ λέγει, οὔτε ἀποσαφεῖ οὐδὲν εἰρωνεύεταί τε πρός με, προσποιούμενός τι αὐτὸς ἐν ἑαυτῷ διανοεῖσθαι ὡς εἰδὼς περὶ αὐτοῦ, ὃ εἰ βούλοιτο σαφῶς εἰπεῖν, ποιήσειεν ἂν καὶ ἐμὲ ὁμολογεῖν καὶ λέγειν ἅπερ αὐτὸς λέγει.
384. Now if you could interpret Cratylus’s oracular speech, I should like to hear you; or rather, I should like still better to hear, if you please, what you yourself think about the correctness of names.Socrates. Hermogenes, son of Hipponicus, there is an ancient saying that knowledge of high things is hard to gain; and surely knowledge of names is no small matter. Now if I had attended Prodicus’s fifty-drachma course of lectures, after which, as he himself says, a man has a complete education on this subject, there would be nothing to hinder your learning the truth about the correctness of names at once; but I have heard only the one-drachma course, and so I do not know what the truth is about such matters. However, I am ready to join you and Cratylus in looking for it. But as for his saying that Hermogenes is not truly your name, I suspect he is making fun of you; for perhaps he thinks that you want to make money and fail every time. But, as I said, it is difficult to know such things. We must join forces and try to find out whether you are right, or Cratylus.
384. εἰ οὖν πῃ ἔχεις συμβαλεῖν τὴν Κρατύλου μαντείαν, ἡδέως ἂν ἀκούσαιμι· μᾶλλον δὲ αὐτῷ σοι ὅπῃ δοκεῖ [ἔχειν] περὶ ὀνομάτων ὀρθότητος ἔτι ἂν ἥδιον πυθοίμην, εἴ σοι βουλομένῳ [ἐστίν].ΣΩ. ὦ παῖ Ἱππονίκου Ἑρμόγενες, παλαιὰ παροιμία ὅτι χαλεπὰ τὰ καλά ἐστιν ὅπῃ ἔχει μαθεῖν· καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸ περὶ τῶν ὀνομάτων οὐ σμικρὸν τυγχάνει ὂν μάθημα. εἰ μὲν οὖν ἐγὼ ἤδη ἠκηκόη παρὰ Προδίκου τὴν πεντηκοντάδραχμον ἐπίδειξιν, ἣν ἀκούσαντι ὑπάρχει περὶ τοῦτο πεπαιδεῦσθαι, ὥς φησιν ἐκεῖνος, οὐδὲν ἂν ἐκώλυέν σε αὐτίκα μάλα εἰδέναι τὴν ἀλήθειαν περὶ ὀνομάτων ὀρθότητος· νῦν δὲ οὐκ ἀκήκοα, ἀλλὰ τὴν δραχμιαίαν. οὔκουν οἶδα πῇ ποτε τὸ ἀληθὲς ἔχει περὶ τῶν τοιούτων· συζητεῖν μέντοι ἕτοιμός εἰμι καὶ σοὶ καὶ Κρατύλῳ κοινῇ. ὅτι δὲ οὔ φησί σοι Ἑρμογένη ὄνομα εἶναι τῇ ἀληθείᾳ, ὥσπερ ὑποπτεύω αὐτὸν σκώπτειν· οἴεται γὰρ ἴσως σε χρημάτων ἐφιέμενον κτήσεως ἀποτυγχάνειν ἑκάστοτε. ἀλλʼ, ὃ νυνδὴ ἔλεγον, εἰδέναι μὲν τὰ τοιαῦτα χαλεπόν, εἰς τὸ κοινὸν δὲ καταθέντας χρὴ σκοπεῖν εἴτε ὡς σὺ λέγεις ἔχει εἴτε ὡς Κρατύλος.
Hermogenes. For my part, Socrates, I have often talked with Cratylus and many others, and cannot come to the conclusion that there is any correctness of names other than convention and agreement. For it seems to me that whatever name you give to a thing is its right name; and if you give up that name and change it for another, the later name is no less correct than the earlier, just as we change the names of our servants; for I think no name belongs to any particular thing by nature, but only by the habit and custom of those who employ it and who established the usage. But if this is not the case, I am ready to hear and to learn from Cratylus or anyone else.
ΕΡΜ. καὶ μὴν ἔγωγε, ὦ Σώκρατες, πολλάκις δὴ καὶ τούτῳ διαλεχθεὶς καὶ ἄλλοις πολλοῖς, οὐ δύναμαι πεισθῆναι ὡς ἄλλη τις ὀρθότης ὀνόματος ἢ συνθήκη καὶ ὁμολογία. ἐμοὶ γὰρ δοκεῖ ὅτι ἄν τίς τῳ θῆται ὄνομα, τοῦτο εἶναι τὸ ὀρθόν· καὶ ἂν αὖθίς γε ἕτερον μεταθῆται, ἐκεῖνο δὲ μηκέτι καλῇ, οὐδὲν ἧττον τὸ ὕστερον ὀρθῶς ἔχειν τοῦ προτέρου, ὥσπερ τοῖς οἰκέταις ἡμεῖς μετατιθέμεθα [οὐδὲν ἧττον τοῦτʼ εἶναι ὀρθὸν τὸ μετατεθὲν τοῦ πρότερον κειμένου]· οὐ γὰρ φύσει ἑκάστῳ πεφυκέναι ὄνομα οὐδὲν οὐδενί, ἀλλὰ νόμῳ καὶ ἔθει τῶν ἐθισάντων τε καὶ καλούντων. εἰ δέ πῃ ἄλλῃ ἔχει, ἕτοιμος ἔγωγε καὶ μανθάνειν καὶ ἀκούειν οὐ μόνον παρὰ Κρατύλου, ἀλλὰ καὶ παρʼ ἄλλου ὁτουοῦν.
385. Socrates. It may be that you are right, Hermogenes; but let us see. Whatever name we decide to give each particular thing is its name?
385. ΣΩ. ἴσως μέντοι τὶ λέγεις, ὦ Ἑρμόγενες· σκεψώμεθα δέ. ὃ ἂν φῂς καλῇ τις ἕκαστον, τοῦθʼ ἑκάστῳ ὄνομα;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
Socrates. Whether the giver be a private person or a state?
ΣΩ. καὶ ἐὰν ἰδιώτης καλῇ καὶ ἐὰν πόλις;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. φημί.
Socrates. Well, then, suppose I give a name to some thing or other, designating, for instance, that which we now call “man” as “horse” and that which we now call “horse” as “man,” will the real name of the same thing be “man” for the public and “horse” for me individually, and in the other case “horse” for the public and “man” for me individually? Is that your meaning?
ΣΩ. τί οὖν; ἐὰν ἐγὼ καλῶ ὁτιοῦν τῶν ὄντων, οἷον ὃ νῦν καλοῦμεν ἄνθρωπον, ἐὰν ἐγὼ τοῦτο ἵππον προσαγορεύω, ὃ δὲ νῦν ἵππον, ἄνθρωπον, ἔσται δημοσίᾳ μὲν ὄνομα ἄνθρωπος τῷ αὐτῷ, ἰδίᾳ δὲ ἵππος; καὶ ἰδίᾳ μὲν αὖ ἄνθρωπος, δημοσίᾳ δὲ ἵππος; οὕτω λέγεις;
Hermogenes. Yes, that is my opinion.
ΕΡΜ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
Socrates. Now answer this question. Is there anything which you call speaking the truth and speaking falsehood?
ΣΩ. φέρε δή μοι τόδε εἰπέ· καλεῖς τι ἀληθῆ λέγειν καὶ ψευδῆ;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ἔγωγε.
Socrates. Then there would be true speech and false speech?
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἴη ἂν λόγος ἀληθής, ὁ δὲ ψευδής;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. Then that speech which says things as they are is true, and that which says them as they are not is false?
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὗτος ὃς ἂν τὰ ὄντα λέγῃ ὡς ἔστιν, ἀληθής· ὃς δʼ ἂν ὡς οὐκ ἔστιν, ψευδής;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. It is possible, then, to say in speech that which is and that which is not?
ΣΩ. ἔστιν ἄρα τοῦτο, λόγῳ λέγειν τὰ ὄντα τε καὶ μή;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. But is true speech true only as a whole, and are its parts untrue?
ΣΩ. ὁ λόγος δʼ ἐστὶν ὁ ἀληθὴς πότερον μὲν ὅλος ἀληθής, τὰ μόρια δʼ αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἀληθῆ;
Hermogenes. No, its parts also are true.
ΕΡΜ. οὔκ, ἀλλὰ καὶ τὰ μόρια.
Socrates. Are the large parts true, but not the small ones, or are all true?
ΣΩ. πότερον δὲ τὰ μὲν μεγάλα μόρια ἀληθῆ, τὰ δὲ σμικρὰ οὔ· ἢ πάντα;
Hermogenes. All, in my opinion.
ΕΡΜ. πάντα, οἶμαι ἔγωγε.
Socrates. Is there, then, anything which you say is a smaller part of speech than a name?
ΣΩ. ἔστιν οὖν ὅτι λέγεις λόγου σμικρότερον μόριον ἄλλο ἢ ὄνομα;
Hermogenes. No, that is the smallest.
ΕΡΜ. οὔκ, ἀλλὰ τοῦτο σμικρότατον.
Socrates. And the name is spoken as a part of the true speech?
ΣΩ. καὶ τοῦτο [ὄνομα] ἄρα τὸ τοῦ ἀληθοῦς λόγου λέγεται;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. Then it is, according to you, true.
ΣΩ. ἀληθές γε, ὡς φῄς.
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. And a part of false speech is false, is it not?
ΣΩ. τὸ δὲ τοῦ ψεύδους μόριον οὐ ψεῦδος;
Hermogenes. It is.
ΕΡΜ. φημί.
Socrates. Then it is possible to utter either a false or a true name, since one may utter speech that is either true or false?
ΣΩ. ἔστιν ἄρα ὄνομα ψεῦδος καὶ ἀληθὲς λέγειν, εἴπερ καὶ λόγον;
Hermogenes. Yes, of course.
ΕΡΜ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Socrates. Then whatever each particular person says is the name of anything, that is its name for that person?
ΣΩ. ὃ ἂν ἄρα ἕκαστος φῇ τῳ ὄνομα εἶναι, τοῦτό ἐστιν ἑκάστῳ ὄνομα;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. And whatever the number of names anyone says a thing has, it will really have that number at the time when he says it?
ΣΩ. ἦ καὶ ὁπόσα ἂν φῇ τις ἑκάστῳ ὀνόματα εἶναι, τοσαῦτα ἔσται καὶ τότε ὁπόταν φῇ;
Hermogenes. Yes, Socrates, for I cannot conceive of any other kind of correctness in names than this; I may call a thing by one name, which I gave, and you by another, which you gave. And in the same way, I see that states have their own different names for the same things, and Greeks differ from other Greeks and from barbarians in their use of names.
ΕΡΜ. οὐ γὰρ ἔχω ἔγωγε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὀνόματος ἄλλην ὀρθότητα ἢ ταύτην, ἐμοὶ μὲν ἕτερον εἶναι καλεῖν ἑκάστῳ ὄνομα, ὃ ἐγὼ ἐθέμην, σοὶ δὲ ἕτερον, ὃ αὖ σύ. οὕτω δὲ καὶ ταῖς πόλεσιν ὁρῶ ἰδίᾳ [ἑκάσταις] ἐνίοις ἐπὶ τοῖς αὐτοῖς κείμενα ὀνόματα, καὶ Ἕλλησι παρὰ τοὺς ἄλλους Ἕλληνας, καὶ Ἕλλησι παρὰ βαρβάρους.
Socrates. Now, Hermogenes, let us see. Do you think this is true of the real things, that their reality is a separate one for each person, as Protagoras said with his doctrine that man is the measure of all things—that things are to me such as they seem to me, and to you such as they seem to you—or do you think things have some fixed reality of their own?
ΣΩ. φέρε δὴ ἴδωμεν, ὦ Ἑρμόγενες, πότερον καὶ τὰ ὄντα οὕτως ἔχειν σοι φαίνεται, ἰδίᾳ αὐτῶν ἡ οὐσία εἶναι ἑκάστῳ, ὥσπερ Πρωταγόρας ἔλεγεν λέγων πάντων χρημάτων μέτρον εἶναι ἄνθρωπον—ὡς ἄρα οἷα μὲν ἂν ἐμοὶ φαίνηται τὰ πράγματα [εἶναι], τοιαῦτα μὲν ἔστιν ἐμοί·
386. Hermogenes. It has sometimes happened to me, Socrates, to be so perplexed that I have been carried away even into this doctrine of Protagoras; but I do not at all believe he is right.
386. οἷα δʼ ἂν σοί, τοιαῦτα δὲ σοί—ἢ ἔχειν δοκεῖ σοι αὐτὰ αὑτῶν τινα βεβαιότητα τῆς οὐσίας;ΕΡΜ. ἤδη ποτὲ ἔγωγε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀπορῶν καὶ ἐνταῦθα ἐξηνέχθην εἰς ἅπερ Πρωταγόρας λέγει· οὐ πάνυ τι μέντοι μοι δοκεῖ οὕτως ἔχειν.
Socrates. Well, have you ever been carried away so far as not to believe at all that any man is bad?
ΣΩ. τί δέ; ἐς τόδε ἤδη ἐξηνέχθης, ὥστε μὴ πάνυ σοι δοκεῖν εἶναί τινα ἄνθρωπον πονηρόν;
Hermogenes. Lord, no; but I have often been carried away into the belief that certain men, and a good many of them, are very bad.
ΕΡΜ. οὐ μὰ τὸν Δία, ἀλλὰ πολλάκις δὴ αὐτὸ πέπονθα, ὥστε μοι δοκεῖν πάνυ πονηροὺς εἶναί τινας ἀνθρώπους, καὶ μάλα συχνούς.
Socrates. Well, did you never think any were very good?
ΣΩ. τί δέ; πάνυ χρηστοὶ οὔπω σοι ἔδοξαν εἶναι [ἄνθρωποι];
Hermogenes. Very few.
ΕΡΜ. καὶ μάλα ὀλίγοι.
Socrates. But you did think them so?
ΣΩ. ἔδοξαν δʼ οὖν;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ἔμοιγε.
Socrates. And what is your idea about that? Are the very good very wise and the very bad very foolish?
ΣΩ. πῶς οὖν τοῦτο τίθεσαι; ἆρʼ ὧδε· τοὺς μὲν πάνυ χρηστοὺς πάνυ φρονίμους, τοὺς δὲ πάνυ πονηροὺς πάνυ ἄφρονας;
Hermogenes. Yes, that is my opinion.
ΕΡΜ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ οὕτως.
Socrates. Now if Protagoras is right and the truth is as he says, that all things are to each person as they seem to him, is it possible for some of us to be wise and some foolish?
ΣΩ. οἷόν τε οὖν [ἐστιν], εἰ Πρωταγόρας ἀληθῆ ἔλεγεν καὶ ἔστιν αὕτη ἡ ἀλήθεια, τὸ οἷα ἂν δοκῇ ἑκάστῳ τοιαῦτα καὶ εἶναι, τοὺς μὲν ἡμῶν φρονίμους εἶναι, τοὺς δὲ ἄφρονας;
Hermogenes. No, it is not.
ΕΡΜ. οὐ δῆτα.
Socrates. And you are, I imagine, strongly of the opinion that if wisdom and folly exist, it is quite impossible that Protagoras is right, for one man would not in reality be at all wiser than another if whatever seems to each person is really true to him.
ΣΩ. καὶ ταῦτά γε, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι, σοὶ πάνυ δοκεῖ, φρονήσεως οὔσης καὶ ἀφροσύνης μὴ πάνυ δυνατὸν εἶναι Πρωταγόραν ἀληθῆ λέγειν· οὐδὲν γὰρ ἄν που τῇ ἀληθείᾳ ὁ ἕτερος τοῦ ἑτέρου φρονιμώτερος εἴη, εἴπερ ἃ ἂν ἑκάστῳ δοκῇ ἑκάστῳ ἀληθῆ ἔσται.
Hermogenes. Quite right.
ΕΡΜ. ἔστι ταῦτα.
Socrates. But neither do you believe with Euthydemus that all things belong equally to all men at the same time and perpetually, for on this assumption also some could not be good and others bad, if virtue and its opposite were always equally possessed by all.
ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν οὐδὲ κατʼ Εὐθύδημόν γε οἶμαι σοὶ δοκεῖ πᾶσι πάντα ὁμοίως εἶναι ἅμα καὶ ἀεί· οὐδὲ γὰρ ἂν οὕτως εἶεν οἱ μὲν χρηστοί, οἱ δὲ πονηροί, εἰ ὁμοίως ἅπασι καὶ ἀεὶ ἀρετή τε καὶ κακία εἴη.
Hermogenes. True.
ΕΡΜ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
Socrates. Then if neither all things belong equally to all men at the same time and perpetually nor each thing to each man individually, it is clear that things have some fixed reality of their own, not in relation to us nor caused by us; they do not vary, swaying one way and another in accordance with our fancy, but exist of themselves in relation to their own reality imposed by nature.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἰ μήτε πᾶσι πάντα ἐστὶν ὁμοίως ἅμα καὶ ἀεί, μήτε ἑκάστῳ ἰδίᾳ ἕκαστον [τῶν ὄντων ἐστίν], δῆλον δὴ ὅτι αὐτὰ αὑτῶν οὐσίαν ἔχοντά τινα βέβαιόν ἐστι τὰ πράγματα, οὐ πρὸς ἡμᾶς οὐδὲ ὑφʼ ἡμῶν ἑλκόμενα ἄνω καὶ κάτω τῷ ἡμετέρῳ φαντάσματι, ἀλλὰ καθʼ αὑτὰ πρὸς τὴν αὑτῶν οὐσίαν ἔχοντα ᾗπερ πέφυκεν.
Hermogenes. I think, Socrates, that is the case.
ΕΡΜ. δοκεῖ μοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὕτω.
Socrates. Can things themselves, then, possess such a nature as this, and that of their actions be different? Or are not actions also a class of realities?
ΣΩ. πότερον οὖν αὐτὰ μὲν ἂν εἴη οὕτω πεφυκότα, αἱ δὲ πράξεις αὐτῶν οὐ κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν τρόπον; ἢ οὐ καὶ αὗται ἕν τι εἶδος τῶν ὄντων εἰσίν, αἱ πράξεις;
Hermogenes. Certainly they are.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε καὶ αὗται.
387. Socrates. Then actions also are performed according to their own nature, not according to our opinion. For instance, if we undertake to cut anything, ought we to cut it as we wish, and with whatever instrument we wish, or shall we, if we are willing to cut each thing in accordance with the nature of cutting and being cut, and with the natural instrument, succeed in cutting it, and do it rightly, whereas if we try to do it contrary to nature we shall fail and accomplish nothing?
387. ΣΩ. κατὰ τὴν αὑτῶν ἄρα φύσιν καὶ αἱ πράξεις πράττονται, οὐ κατὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν δόξαν. οἷον ἐάν τι ἐπιχειρήσωμεν ἡμεῖς τῶν ὄντων τέμνειν, πότερον ἡμῖν τμητέον [ἐστὶν] ἕκαστον ὡς ἂν ἡμεῖς βουλώμεθα καὶ ᾧ ἂν βουληθῶμεν, ἢ ἐὰν μὲν κατὰ τὴν φύσιν βουληθῶμεν ἕκαστον τέμνειν τοῦ τέμνειν τε καὶ τέμνεσθαι καὶ ᾧ πέφυκε, τεμοῦμέν τε καὶ πλέον τι ἡμῖν ἔσται καὶ ὀρθῶς πράξομεν τοῦτο, ἐὰν δὲ παρὰ φύσιν, ἐξαμαρτησόμεθά τε καὶ οὐδὲν πράξομεν;
Hermogenes. I think the way is as you suggest.
ΕΡΜ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ οὕτω.
Socrates. Then, too, if we undertake to burn anything, we must burn not according to every opinion, but according to the right one? And that is as each thing naturally burns or is burned and with the natural instrument?
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἐὰν κάειν τι ἐπιχειρήσωμεν, οὐ κατὰ πᾶσαν δόξαν δεῖ κάειν, ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὴν ὀρθήν; αὕτη δʼ ἐστὶν ᾗ ἐπεφύκει ἕκαστον κάεσθαί τε καὶ κάειν καὶ ᾧ ἐπεφύκει;
Hermogenes. True.
ΕΡΜ. ἔστι ταῦτα.
Socrates. And all other actions are to be performed In like manner?
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ τἆλλα οὕτω;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. And speaking is an action, is it not?
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ καὶ τὸ λέγειν μία τις τῶν πράξεών ἐστιν;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. Then if a man speaks as he fancies he ought to speak, will he speak rightly, or will he succeed in speaking if he speaks in the way and with the instrument in which and with which it is natural for us to speak and for things to be spoken, whereas otherwise he will fail and accomplish nothing?
ΣΩ. πότερον οὖν ᾗ ἄν τῳ δοκῇ λεκτέον εἶναι, ταύτῃ λέγων ὀρθῶς λέξει, ἢ ἐὰν μὲν ᾗ πέφυκε τὰ πράγματα λέγειν τε καὶ λέγεσθαι καὶ ᾧ, ταύτῃ καὶ τούτῳ λέγῃ, πλέον τέ τι ποιήσει καὶ ἐρεῖ· ἂν δὲ μή, ἐξαμαρτήσεταί τε καὶ οὐδὲν ποιήσει;
Hermogenes. I think the way you suggest is the right one.
ΕΡΜ. οὕτω μοι δοκεῖ ὡς λέγεις.
Socrates. Now naming is a part of speaking, for in naming I suppose people utter speech.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τοῦ λέγειν μόριον τὸ ὀνομάζειν; διονομάζοντες γάρ που λέγουσι τοὺς λόγους.
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. Then is not naming also a kind of action, if speaking is a kind of action concerned with things?
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ τὸ ὀνομάζειν πρᾶξίς [τίς] ἐστιν, εἴπερ καὶ τὸ λέγειν πρᾶξίς τις ἦν περὶ τὰ πράγματα;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. But we saw that actions are not merely relative to us, but possess a separate nature of their own?
ΣΩ. αἱ δὲ πράξεις ἐφάνησαν ἡμῖν οὐ πρὸς ἡμᾶς οὖσαι, ἀλλʼ αὑτῶν τινα ἰδίαν φύσιν ἔχουσαι;
Hermogenes. True.
ΕΡΜ. ἔστι ταῦτα.
Socrates. Then in naming also, if we are to be consistent with our previous conclusions, we cannot follow our own will, but the way and the instrument which the nature of things prescribes must be employed, must they not? And if we pursue this course we shall be successful in our naming, but otherwise we shall fail.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ὀνομαστέον [ἐστὶν] ᾗ πέφυκε τὰ πράγματα ὀνομάζειν τε καὶ ὀνομάζεσθαι καὶ ᾧ, ἀλλʼ οὐχ ᾗ ἂν ἡμεῖς βουληθῶμεν, εἴπερ τι τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν μέλλει ὁμολογούμενον εἶναι; καὶ οὕτω μὲν ἂν πλέον τι ποιοῖμεν καὶ ὀνομάζοιμεν, ἄλλως δὲ οὔ;
Hermogenes. I think you are right.
ΕΡΜ. φαίνεταί μοι.
Socrates. And again, what has to be cut, we said, has to be cut with something.
ΣΩ. φέρε δή, ὃ ἔδει τέμνειν, ἔδει τῳ, φαμέν, τέμνειν;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. And what has to be woven, has to be woven with something, and what has to be bored, has to be bored with something?
ΣΩ. καὶ ὃ ἔδει κερκίζειν, ἔδει τῳ κερκίζειν; καὶ ὃ ἔδει τρυπᾶν, ἔδει τῳ τρυπᾶν;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. And then what has to be named, has to be named with something?
ΣΩ. καὶ ὃ ἔδει δὴ ὀνομάζειν, ἔδει τῳ ὀνομάζειν;
388. Hermogenes. True.
388. ΕΡΜ. ἔστι ταῦτα.
Socrates. And what is that with which we have to bore?
ΣΩ. τί δὲ ἦν ἐκεῖνο ᾧ ἔδει τρυπᾶν;
Hermogenes. A borer.
ΕΡΜ. τρύπανον.
Socrates. And that with which we weave?
ΣΩ. τί δὲ ᾧ κερκίζειν;
Hermogenes. A shuttle.
ΕΡΜ. κερκίς.
Socrates. And that with which we must name?
ΣΩ. τί δὲ ᾧ ὀνομάζειν;
Hermogenes. A name.
ΕΡΜ. ὄνομα.
Socrates. Right. A name also, then, is a kind of instrument.
ΣΩ. εὖ λέγεις. ὄργανον ἄρα τί ἐστι καὶ τὸ ὄνομα.
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. Then if I were to ask “What instrument is the shuttle?” Is it not that with which we weave?
ΣΩ. εἰ οὖν ἐγὼ ἐροίμην τί ἦν ὄργανον ἡ κερκίς; οὐχ ᾧ κερκίζομεν;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. And what do we do when we weave? Do we not separate the mingled threads of warp and woof?
ΣΩ. κερκίζοντες δὲ τί δρῶμεν; οὐ τὴν κρόκην καὶ τοὺς στήμονας συγκεχυμένους διακρίνομεν;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. And you could give a similar answer about the borer and the rest, could you not?
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ περὶ τρυπάνου ἕξεις οὕτως εἰπεῖν καὶ περὶ τῶν ἄλλων;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. And can you say something of the same kind about a name? The name being an instrument, what do we do with it when we name?
ΣΩ. ἔχεις δὴ καὶ περὶ ὀνόματος οὕτως εἰπεῖν; ὀργάνῳ ὄντι τῷ ὀνόματι ὀνομάζοντες τί ποιοῦμεν;
Hermogenes. I cannot tell.
ΕΡΜ. οὐκ ἔχω λέγειν.
Socrates. Do we not teach one another something, and separate things according to their natures?
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὐ διδάσκομέν τι ἀλλήλους καὶ τὰ πράγματα διακρίνομεν ᾗ ἔχει;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. A name is, then, an instrument of teaching and of separating reality, as a shuttle is an instrument of separating the web?
ΣΩ. ὄνομα ἄρα διδασκαλικόν τί ἐστιν ὄργανον καὶ διακριτικὸν τῆς οὐσίας ὥσπερ κερκὶς ὑφάσματος.
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. But the shuttle is an instrument of weaving?
ΣΩ. ὑφαντικὸν δέ γε ἡ κερκίς;
Hermogenes. Of course.
ΕΡΜ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
Socrates. The weaver, then, will use the shuttle well, and well means like a weaver; and a teacher will use a name well, and well means like a teacher.
ΣΩ. ὑφαντικὸς μὲν ἄρα κερκίδι καλῶς χρήσεται, καλῶς δʼ ἐστὶν ὑφαντικῶς· διδασκαλικὸς δὲ ὀνόματι, καλῶς δʼ ἐστὶ διδασκαλικῶς.
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. Whose work will the weaver use well when he uses the shuttle?
ΣΩ. τῷ τίνος οὖν ἔργῳ ὁ ὑφάντης καλῶς χρήσεται ὅταν τῇ κερκίδι χρῆται;
Hermogenes. The carpenter’s.
ΕΡΜ. τῷ τοῦ τέκτονος.
Socrates. Is every one a carpenter, or he who has the skill?
ΣΩ. πᾶς δὲ τέκτων ἢ ὁ τὴν τέχνην ἔχων;
Hermogenes. He who has the skill.
ΕΡΜ. ὁ τὴν τέχνην.
Socrates. And whose work will the hole-maker use when he uses the borer?
ΣΩ. τῷ τίνος δὲ ἔργῳ ὁ τρυπητὴς καλῶς χρήσεται ὅταν τῷ τρυπάνῳ χρῆται;
Hermogenes. The smith’s.
ΕΡΜ. τῷ τοῦ χαλκέως.
Socrates. And is every one a smith, or he who has the skill?
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν πᾶς χαλκεὺς ἢ ὁ τὴν τέχνην ἔχων;
Hermogenes. He who has the skill.
ΕΡΜ. ὁ τὴν τέχνην.
Socrates. And whose work will the teacher use when he uses the name?
ΣΩ. εἶεν. τῷ δὲ τίνος ἔργῳ ὁ διδασκαλικὸς χρήσεται ὅταν τῷ ὀνόματι χρῆται;
Hermogenes. I cannot tell that, either.
ΕΡΜ. οὐδὲ τοῦτʼ ἔχω.
Socrates. And can you not tell this, either, who gives us the names we use?
ΣΩ. οὐδὲ τοῦτό γʼ ἔχεις εἰπεῖν, τίς παραδίδωσιν ἡμῖν τὰ ὀνόματα οἷς χρώμεθα;
Hermogenes. No.
ΕΡΜ. οὐ δῆτα.
Socrates. Do you not think it is the law that gives them to us?
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὐχὶ ὁ νόμος δοκεῖ σοι [εἶναι] ὁ παραδιδοὺς αὐτά;
Hermogenes. Very likely.
ΕΡΜ. ἔοικεν.
Socrates. Then the teacher, when he uses a name, will be using the work of a lawgiver?
ΣΩ. νομοθέτου ἄρα ἔργῳ χρήσεται ὁ διδασκαλικὸς ὅταν ὀνόματι χρῆται;
Hermogenes. I think so.
ΕΡΜ. δοκεῖ μοι.
Socrates. Do you think every man is a lawgiver, or only he who has the skill?
ΣΩ. νομοθέτης δέ σοι δοκεῖ πᾶς εἶναι ἀνὴρ ἢ ὁ τὴν τέχνην ἔχων;
Hermogenes. He who has the skill.
ΕΡΜ. ὁ τὴν τέχνην.
Socrates. Then it is not for every man, Hermogenes, to give names, but for him who may be called the name-maker; and he, it appears, is the lawgiver, who is of all the artisans among men the rarest.
ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα παντὸς ἀνδρός, ὦ Ἑρμόγενες, ὄνομα θέσθαι [ἐστὶν] ἀλλά τινος ὀνοματουργοῦ·
389. Hermogenes. So it appears.
389. οὗτος δʼ ἐστίν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ὁ νομοθέτης, ὃς δὴ τῶν δημιουργῶν σπανιώτατος ἐν ἀνθρώποις γίγνεται.ΕΡΜ. ἔοικεν.
Socrates. See now what the lawgiver has in view in giving names. Look at it in the light of what has gone before. What has the carpenter in view when he makes a shuttle? Is it not something the nature of which is to weave?
ΣΩ. ἴθι δή, ἐπίσκεψαι ποῖ βλέπων ὁ νομοθέτης τὰ ὀνόματα τίθεται· ἐκ τῶν ἔμπροσθεν δὲ ἀνάσκεψαι. ποῖ βλέπων ὁ τέκτων τὴν κερκίδα ποιεῖ; ἆρʼ οὐ πρὸς τοιοῦτόν τι ὃ ἐπεφύκει κερκίζειν;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. Well, then, if the shuttle breaks while he making it, will he make another with his mind fixed on that which is broken, or on that form with reference to which he was making the one which he broke?
ΣΩ. τί δέ; ἂν καταγῇ αὐτῷ ἡ κερκὶς ποιοῦντι, πότερον πάλιν ποιήσει ἄλλην πρὸς τὴν κατεαγυῖαν βλέπων, ἢ πρὸς ἐκεῖνο τὸ εἶδος πρὸς ὅπερ καὶ ἣν κατέαξεν ἐποίει;
Hermogenes. On that form, in my opinion.
ΕΡΜ. πρὸς ἐκεῖνο, ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
Socrates. Then we should very properly call that the absolute or real shuttle?
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἐκεῖνο δικαιότατʼ ἂν αὐτὸ ὃ ἔστιν κερκὶς καλέσαιμεν;
Hermogenes. Yes, I think so.
ΕΡΜ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
Socrates. Then whenever he has to make a shuttle for a light or a thick garment, or for one of linen or of wool or of any kind whatsoever, all of them must contain the form or ideal of shuttle, and in each of his products he must embody the nature which is naturally best for each?
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἐπειδὰν δέῃ λεπτῷ ἱματίῳ ἢ παχεῖ ἢ λινῷ ἢ ἐρεῷ ἢ ὁποιῳοῦν τινι κερκίδα ποιεῖν, πάσας μὲν δεῖ τὸ τῆς κερκίδος ἔχειν εἶδος, οἵα δʼ ἑκάστῳ καλλίστη ἐπεφύκει, ταύτην ἀποδιδόναι τὴν φύσιν εἰς τὸ ἔργον ἕκαστον;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. And the same applies to all other instruments. The artisan must discover the instrument naturally fitted for each purpose and must embody that in the material of which he makes the instrument, not in accordance with his own will, but in accordance with its nature. He must, it appears, know how to embody in the iron the borer fitted by nature for each special use.
ΣΩ. καὶ περὶ τῶν ἄλλων δὴ ὀργάνων ὁ αὐτὸς τρόπος· τὸ φύσει ἑκάστῳ πεφυκὸς ὄργανον ἐξευρόντα δεῖ ἀποδοῦναι εἰς ἐκεῖνο ἐξ οὗ ἂν ποιῇ [τὸ ἔργον], οὐχ οἷον ἂν αὐτὸς βουληθῇ, ἀλλʼ οἷον ἐπεφύκει. τὸ φύσει γὰρ ἑκάστῳ, ὡς ἔοικε, τρύπανον πεφυκὸς εἰς τὸν σίδηρον δεῖ ἐπίστασθαι τιθέναι.
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. And he must embody in the wood the shuttle fitted by nature for each kind of weaving.
ΣΩ. καὶ τὴν φύσει κερκίδα ἑκάστῳ πεφυκυῖαν εἰς ξύλον.
Hermogenes. True.
ΕΡΜ. ἔστι ταῦτα.
Socrates. For each kind of shuttle is, it appears, fitted by nature for its particular kind of weaving, and the like is true of other instruments.
ΣΩ. φύσει γὰρ ἦν ἑκάστῳ εἴδει ὑφάσματος, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἑκάστη κερκίς, καὶ τἆλλα οὕτως.
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. Then, my dear friend, must not the law-giver also know how to embody in the sounds and syllables that name which is fitted by nature for each object? Must he not make and give all his names with his eye fixed upon the absolute or ideal name, if he is to be an authoritative giver of names? And if different lawgivers do not embody it in the same syllables, we must not forget this ideal name on that account; for different smiths do not embody the form in the same iron, though making the same instrument for the same purpose, but so long as they reproduce the same ideal, though it be in different iron, still the instrument is as it should be, whether it be made here or in foreign lands, is it not?
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν, ὦ βέλτιστε, καὶ τὸ ἑκάστῳ φύσει πεφυκὸς ὄνομα τὸν νομοθέτην ἐκεῖνον εἰς τοὺς φθόγγους καὶ τὰς συλλαβὰς δεῖ ἐπίστασθαι τιθέναι, καὶ βλέποντα πρὸς αὐτὸ ἐκεῖνο ὃ ἔστιν ὄνομα, πάντα τὰ ὀνόματα ποιεῖν τε καὶ τίθεσθαι, εἰ μέλλει κύριος εἶναι ὀνομάτων θέτης; εἰ δὲ μὴ εἰς τὰς αὐτὰς συλλαβὰς ἕκαστος ὁ νομοθέτης τίθησιν, οὐδὲν δεῖ τοῦτο ἀ⟨μφι⟩γνοεῖν· οὐδὲ γὰρ εἰς τὸν αὐτὸν σίδηρον ἅπας χαλκεὺς τίθησιν, τοῦ αὐτοῦ ἕνεκα ποιῶν τὸ αὐτὸ ὄργανον· ἀλλʼ ὅμως, ἕως ἂν τὴν αὐτὴν ἰδέαν ἀποδιδῷ, ἐάντε ἐν ἄλλῳ σιδήρῳ, ὅμως ὀρθῶς ἔχει τὸ ὄργανον, ἐάντε ἐνθάδε ἐάντε ἐν βαρβάροις τις ποιῇ.
390. Hermogenes. Certainly.
390. ἦ γάρ;ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. On this basis, then, you will judge the law-giver, whether he be here or in a foreign land, so long as he gives to each thing the proper form of the name, in whatsoever syllables, to be no worse lawgiver, whether here or anywhere else, will you not?
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν οὕτως ἀξιώσεις καὶ τὸν νομοθέτην τόν τε ἐνθάδε καὶ τὸν ἐν τοῖς βαρβάροις, ἕως ἂν τὸ τοῦ ὀνόματος εἶδος ἀποδιδῷ τὸ προσῆκον ἑκάστῳ ἐν ὁποιαισοῦν συλλαβαῖς, οὐδὲν χείρω νομοθέτην εἶναι τὸν ἐνθάδε ἢ τὸν ὁπουοῦν ἄλλοθι;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. Now who is likely to know whether the proper form of shuttle is embodied in any piece of wood? The carpenter who made it, or the weaver who is to use it?
ΣΩ. τίς οὖν ὁ γνωσόμενος εἰ τὸ προσῆκον εἶδος κερκίδος ἐν ὁποιῳοῦν ξύλῳ κεῖται; ὁ ποιήσας, ὁ τέκτων, ἢ ὁ χρησόμενος [ὁ] ὑφάντης;
Hermogenes. Probably the one who is to use it, Socrates.
ΕΡΜ. εἰκὸς μὲν μᾶλλον, ὦ Σώκρατες, τὸν χρησόμενον.
Socrates. Then who is to use the work of the lyre-maker? Is not he the man who would know best how to superintend the making of the lyre and would also know whether it is well made or not when it is finished?
ΣΩ. τίς οὖν ὁ τῷ τοῦ λυροποιοῦ ἔργῳ χρησόμενος; ἆρʼ οὐχ οὗτος ὃς ἐπίσταιτο ἂν ἐργαζομένῳ κάλλιστα ἐπιστατεῖν καὶ εἰργασμένον γνοίη εἴτʼ εὖ εἴργασται εἴτε μή;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. Who is he?
ΣΩ. τίς;
Hermogenes. The lyre-player.
ΕΡΜ. ὁ κιθαριστής.
Socrates. And who would know best about the work of the ship-builder?
ΣΩ. τίς δὲ ὁ τῷ τοῦ ναυπηγοῦ;
Hermogenes. The navigator.
ΕΡΜ. κυβερνήτης.
Socrates. And who can best superintend the work of the lawgiver and judge of it when it is finished, both here and in foreign countries? The user, is it not?
ΣΩ. τίς δὲ τῷ τοῦ νομοθέτου ἔργῳ ἐπιστατήσειέ τʼ ἂν κάλλιστα καὶ εἰργασμένον κρίνειε καὶ ἐνθάδε καὶ ἐν τοῖς βαρβάροις; ἆρʼ οὐχ ὅσπερ χρήσεται;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. And is not this he who knows how to ask questions?
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐχ ὁ ἐρωτᾶν ἐπιστάμενος οὗτός ἐστιν;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. And the same one knows also how to make replies?
ΣΩ. ὁ δὲ αὐτὸς καὶ ἀποκρίνεσθαι;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. ναί.
Socrates. And the man who knows how to ask and answer questions you call a dialectician?
ΣΩ. τὸν δὲ ἐρωτᾶν καὶ ἀποκρίνεσθαι ἐπιστάμενον ἄλλο τι σὺ καλεῖς ἢ διαλεκτικόν;
Hermogenes. Yes, that is what I call him.
ΕΡΜ. οὔκ, ἀλλὰ τοῦτο.
Socrates. The work of the carpenter, then, is to make a rudder under the supervision of the steersman, if he rudder is to be a good one.
ΣΩ. τέκτονος μὲν ἄρα ἔργον ἐστὶν ποιῆσαι πηδάλιον ἐπιστατοῦντος κυβερνήτου, εἰ μέλλει καλὸν εἶναι τὸ πηδάλιον.
Hermogenes. Evidently.
ΕΡΜ. φαίνεται.
Socrates. And the work of the lawgiver, as it seems, is to make a name, with the dialectician as his supervisor, if names are to be well given.
ΣΩ. νομοθέτου δέ γε, ὡς ἔοικεν, ὄνομα, ἐπιστάτην ἔχοντος διαλεκτικὸν ἄνδρα, εἰ μέλλει καλῶς ὀνόματα θήσεσθαι.
Hermogenes. True.
ΕΡΜ. ἔστι ταῦτα.
Socrates. Then, Hermogenes, the giving of names can hardly be, as you imagine, a trifling matter, or a task for trifling or casual persons: and Cratylus is right in saying that names belong to things by nature and that not every one is an artisan of names, but only he who keeps in view the name which belongs by nature to each particular thing and is able to embody its form in the letters and syllables.
ΣΩ. κινδυνεύει ἄρα, ὦ Ἑρμόγενες, εἶναι οὐ φαῦλον, ὡς σὺ οἴει, ἡ τοῦ ὀνόματος θέσις, οὐδὲ φαύλων ἀνδρῶν οὐδὲ τῶν ἐπιτυχόντων. καὶ Κρατύλος ἀληθῆ λέγει λέγων φύσει τὰ ὀνόματα εἶναι τοῖς πράγμασι, καὶ οὐ πάντα δημιουργὸν ὀνομάτων εἶναι, ἀλλὰ μόνον ἐκεῖνον τὸν ἀποβλέποντα εἰς τὸ τῇ φύσει ὄνομα ὂν ἑκάστῳ καὶ δυνάμενον αὐτοῦ τὸ εἶδος τιθέναι εἴς τε τὰ γράμματα καὶ τὰς συλλαβάς.
Hermogenes. I do not know how to answer you, Socrates; nevertheless it is not easy to change my conviction suddenly.
ΕΡΜ. οὐκ ἔχω, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὅπως χρὴ πρὸς ἃ λέγεις ἐναντιοῦσθαι.
391. I think you would be more likely to convince me, if you were to show me just what it is that you say is the natural correctness of names.Socrates. I, my dear Hermogenes, do not say that there is any. You forget what I said a while ago, that I did not know, but would join you in looking for the truth. And now, as we are looking, you and I, we already see one thing we did not know before, that names do possess a certain natural correctness, and that not every man knows how to give a name well to anything whatsoever. Is not that true?
391. ἴσως μέντοι οὐ ῥᾴδιόν ἐστιν οὕτως ἐξαίφνης πεισθῆναι, ἀλλὰ δοκῶ μοι ὧδε ἂν μᾶλλον πιθέσθαι σοι, εἴ μοι δείξειας ἥντινα φῂς εἶναι τὴν φύσει ὀρθότητα ὀνόματος.ΣΩ. ἐγὼ μέν, ὦ μακάριε Ἑρμόγενες, οὐδεμίαν λέγω, ἀλλʼ ἐπελάθου γε ὧν ὀλίγον πρότερον ἔλεγον, ὅτι οὐκ εἰδείην ἀλλὰ σκεψοίμην μετὰ σοῦ. νῦν δὲ σκοπουμένοις ἡμῖν, ἐμοί τε καὶ σοί, τοσοῦτον μὲν ἤδη φαίνεται παρὰ τὰ πρότερα, φύσει τέ τινα ὀρθότητα ἔχον εἶναι τὸ ὄνομα καὶ οὐ παντὸς ἀνδρὸς ἐπίστασθαι [καλῶς] αὐτὸ πράγματι ὁτῳοῦν θέσθαι· ἢ οὔ;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. Then our next task is to try to find out, if you care to know about it, what kind of correctness that is which belongs to names.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο χρὴ ζητεῖν, εἴπερ ἐπιθυμεῖς εἰδέναι, ἥτις ποτʼ αὖ ἐστιν αὐτοῦ ἡ ὀρθότης.
Hermogenes. To be sure I care to know.
ΕΡΜ. ἀλλὰ μὴν ἐπιθυμῶ γε εἰδέναι.
Socrates. Then investigate.
ΣΩ. σκόπει τοίνυν.
Hermogenes. How shall I investigate?
ΕΡΜ. πῶς οὖν χρὴ σκοπεῖν;
Socrates. The best way to investigate, my friend, is with the help of those who know; and you make sure of their favour by paying them money. They are the sophists, of Protagoras altogether, should desire what is said in such a Truth, as if it were of any value.
ΣΩ. ὀρθοτάτη μὲν τῆς σκέψεως, ὦ ἑταῖρε, μετὰ τῶν ἐπισταμένων, χρήματα ἐκείνοις τελοῦντα καὶ χάριτας κατατιθέμενον. εἰσὶ δὲ οὗτοι οἱ σοφισταί, οἷσπερ καὶ ὁ ἀδελφός σου Καλλίας πολλὰ τελέσας χρήματα σοφὸς δοκεῖ εἶναι. ἐπειδὴ δὲ οὐκ ἐγκρατὴς εἶ τῶν πατρῴων, λιπαρεῖν χρὴ τὸν ἀδελφὸν καὶ δεῖσθαι αὐτοῦ διδάξαι σε τὴν ὀρθότητα περὶ τῶν τοιούτων ἣν ἔμαθεν παρὰ Πρωταγόρου.ΕΡΜ. ἄτοπος μεντἂν εἴη μου, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἡ δέησις, εἰ τὴν μὲν ἀλήθειαν τὴν Πρωταγόρου ὅλως οὐκ ἀποδέχομαι, τὰ δὲ τῇ τοιαύτῃ ἀληθείᾳ ῥηθέντα ἀγαπῴην ὥς του ἄξια.
Socrates. Then if you do not like that, you ought to learn from Homer and the other poets.
ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ εἰ μὴ αὖ σε ταῦτα ἀρέσκει, παρʼ Ὁμήρου χρὴ μανθάνειν καὶ παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων ποιητῶν.
Hermogenes. Why, Socrates, what does Homer say about names, and where?
ΕΡΜ. καὶ τί λέγει, ὦ Σώκρατες, Ὅμηρος περὶ ὀνομάτων, καὶ ποῦ;
Socrates. In many passages; but chiefly and most admirably in those in which he distinguishes between the names by which gods and men call the same things. Do you not think he gives in those passages great and wonderful information about the correctness of names? For clearly the gods call things by the names that are naturally right. Do you not think so?
ΣΩ. πολλαχοῦ· μέγιστα δὲ καὶ κάλλιστα ἐν οἷς διορίζει ἐπὶ τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἅ τε οἱ ἄνθρωποι ὀνόματα καλοῦσι καὶ οἱ θεοί. ἢ οὐκ οἴει αὐτὸν μέγα τι καὶ θαυμάσιον λέγειν ἐν τούτοις περὶ ὀνομάτων ὀρθότητος; δῆλον γὰρ δὴ ὅτι οἵ γε θεοὶ αὐτὰ καλοῦσιν πρὸς ὀρθότητα ἅπερ ἔστι φύσει ὀνόματα· ἢ σὺ οὐκ οἴει;
Hermogenes. Of course I know that if they call things, they call them rightly. But what are these instances to which you refer?
ΕΡΜ. εὖ οἶδα μὲν οὖν ἔγωγε, εἴπερ καλοῦσιν, ὅτι ὀρθῶς καλοῦσιν. ἀλλὰ ποῖα ταῦτα λέγεις;
Socrates. Do you not know that he says about the river in Troy which had the single combat with Hephaestus,whom the gods call Xanthus, but men call Scamander?
ΣΩ. οὐκ οἶσθα ὅτι περὶ τοῦ ποταμοῦ τοῦ ἐν τῇ Τροίᾳ, ὃς ἐμονομάχει τῷ Ἡφαίστῳ, ὃν Ξάνθον, φησί, καλέουσι θεοί, ἄνδρες δὲ Σκάμανδρον;
Hermogenes. Oh yes.
ΕΡΜ. ἔγωγε.
392. Socrates. Well, do you not think this is a grand thing to know, that the name of that river is rightly Xanthus, rather than Scamander? Or, if you like, do you think it is a slight thing to learn about the bird which he saysgods call chalcis, but men call cymindis,that it is much more correct for the same bird to be called chalcis than cymindis? Or to learn that the hill men call Batieia is called by the gods Myrina’s tomb, and many other such statements by Homer and other poets? But perhaps these matters are too high for us to understand; it is, I think, more within human power to investigate the names Scamandrius and Astyanax, and understand what kind of correctness he ascribes to these, which he says are the names of Hector’s son. You recall, of course: the lines which contain the words to which I refer.
392. ΣΩ. τί οὖν δή; οὐκ οἴει τοῦτο σεμνόν τι εἶναι γνῶναι, ὅπῃ ποτὲ ὀρθῶς ἔχει ἐκεῖνον τὸν ποταμὸν Ξάνθον καλεῖν μᾶλλον ἢ Σκάμανδρον; εἰ δὲ βούλει, περὶ τῆς ὄρνιθος ἣν λέγει ὅτι—χαλκίδα κικλῄσκουσι θεοί, ἄνδρες δὲ κύμινδιν,φαῦλον ἡγῇ τὸ μάθημα ὅσῳ ὀρθότερόν ἐστι καλεῖσθαι χαλκὶς κυμίνδιδος τῷ αὐτῷ ὀρνέῳ; ἢ τὴν Βατίειάν τε καὶ Μυρίνην, καὶ ἄλλα πολλὰ καὶ τούτου τοῦ ποιητοῦ καὶ ἄλλων; ἀλλὰ ταῦτα μὲν ἴσως μείζω ἐστὶν ἢ κατʼ ἐμὲ καὶ σὲ ἐξευρεῖν· ὁ δὲ Σκαμάνδριός τε καὶ ὁ Ἀστυάναξ ἀνθρωπινώτερον διασκέψασθαι, ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ, καὶ ῥᾷον, ἅ φησιν ὀνόματα εἶναι τῷ τοῦ Ἕκτορος ὑεῖ, τίνα ποτὲ λέγει τὴν ὀρθότητα αὐτῶν. οἶσθα γὰρ δήπου ταῦτα τὰ ἔπη ἐν οἷς ἔνεστιν ἃ ἐγὼ λέγω.
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. Which of the names of the boy do you imagine Homer thought was more correct, Astyanax or Scamandrius?
ΣΩ. πότερον οὖν οἴει Ὅμηρον ὀρθότερον ἡγεῖσθαι τῶν ὀνομάτων κεῖσθαι τῷ παιδί, τὸν Ἀστυάνακτα ἢ τὸν Σκαμάνδριον;
Hermogenes. I cannot say.
ΕΡΜ. οὐκ ἔχω λέγειν.
Socrates. Look at it in this way: suppose you were asked, “Do the wise or the unwise give names more correctly?”
ΣΩ. ὧδε δὴ σκόπει. εἴ τις ἔροιτό σε πότερον οἴει ὀρθότερον καλεῖν τὰ ὀνόματα τοὺς φρονιμωτέρους ἢ τοὺς ἀφρονεστέρους;
Hermogenes. “The wise, obviously,” I should say.
ΕΡΜ. δῆλον δὴ ὅτι τοὺς φρονιμωτέρους, φαίην ἄν.
Socrates. And do you think the women or the men of a city, regarded as a class in general, are the wiser?
ΣΩ. πότερον οὖν αἱ γυναῖκες ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν φρονιμώτεραί σοι δοκοῦσιν εἶναι ἢ οἱ ἄνδρες, ὡς τὸ ὅλον εἰπεῖν γένος;
Hermogenes. The men.
ΕΡΜ. οἱ ἄνδρες.
Socrates. And do you not know that Homer says the child of Hector was called Astyanax by the men of Troy; so he must have been called Scamandrius by the women, since the men called him Astyanax?
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν οἶσθα ὅτι Ὅμηρος τὸ παιδίον τὸ τοῦ Ἕκτορος ὑπὸ τῶν Τρώων φησὶν καλεῖσθαι Ἀστυάνακτα, Σκαμάνδριον δὲ δῆλον ὅτι ὑπὸ τῶν γυναικῶν, ἐπειδὴ οἵ γε ἄνδρες αὐτὸν Ἀστυάνακτα ἐκάλουν;
Hermogenes. Yes, probably.
ΕΡΜ. ἔοικέ γε.
Socrates. And Homer too thought the Trojan men were wiser than the women?
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ Ὅμηρος τοὺς Τρῶας σοφωτέρους ἡγεῖτο ἢ τὰς γυναῖκας αὐτῶν;
Hermogenes. I suppose he did.
ΕΡΜ. οἶμαι ἔγωγε.
Socrates. Then he thought Astyanax was more rightly the boy’s name than Scamandrius?
ΣΩ. τὸν Ἀστυάνακτα ἄρα ὀρθότερον ᾤετο κεῖσθαι τῷ παιδὶ ἢ τὸν Σκαμάνδριον;
Hermogenes. So it appears.
ΕΡΜ. φαίνεται.
Socrates. Let us, then, consider the reason for this. Does he not himself indicate the reason most admirably? For he says—He alone defended their city and long walls.Therefore, as it seems, it is right to call the son of the defender Astyanax (Lord of the city), ruler of that which his father, as Homer says, defended.
ΣΩ. σκοπῶμεν δὴ διὰ τί ποτε. ἢ αὐτὸς ἡμῖν κάλλιστα ὑφηγεῖται τὸ διότι; φησὶν γάρ—οἶος γάρ σφιν ἔρυτο πόλιν καὶ τείχεα μακρά.διὰ ταῦτα δή, ὡς ἔοικεν, ὀρθῶς ἔχει καλεῖν τὸν τοῦ σωτῆρος ὑὸν Ἀστυάνακτα τούτου ὃ ἔσῳζεν ὁ πατὴρ αὐτοῦ, ὥς φησιν Ὅμηρος.
Hermogenes. That is clear to me.
ΕΡΜ. φαίνεταί μοι.
Socrates. Indeed? I do not yet understand about it myself, Hermogenes. Do you?
ΣΩ. τί δή ποτε; οὐ γάρ πω οὐδʼ αὐτὸς ἔγωγε μανθάνω· ὦ Ἑρμόγενες, σὺ δὲ μανθάνεις;
Hermogenes. No, by Zeus, I do not.
ΕΡΜ. μὰ Δίʼ οὐκ ἔγωγε.
393. Socrates. But, my good friend, did not Homer himself also give Hector his name?
393. ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ἆρα, ὠγαθέ, καὶ τῷ Ἕκτορι αὐτὸς ἔθετο τὸ ὄνομα Ὅμηρος;
Hermogenes. Why do you ask that?
ΕΡΜ. τί δή;
Socrates. Because that name seems to me similar to Astyanax, and both names seem to be Greek. For lord (ἄναξ) and holder (ἕκτωρ) mean nearly the same thing, indicating that they are names of a king; for surely a man is holder of that of which he is lord; for it is clear that he rules it and possesses it and holds it. Or does it seem to you that there is nothing in what I am saying, and am I wrong in imagining that I have found a clue to Homer’s opinion about the correctness of names?
ΣΩ. ὅτι μοι δοκεῖ καὶ τοῦτο παραπλήσιόν τι εἶναι τῷ Ἀστυάνακτι, καὶ ἔοικεν Ἑλληνικοῖς ταῦτα [τὰ ὀνόματα]. ὁ γὰρ ἄναξ καὶ ὁ Ἕκτωρ σχεδόν τι ταὐτὸν σημαίνει, βασιλικὰ ἀμφότερα εἶναι τὰ ὀνόματα· οὗ γὰρ ἄν τις ἄναξ ᾖ, καὶ Ἕκτωρ δήπου ἐστὶν τούτου· δῆλον γὰρ ὅτι κρατεῖ τε αὐτοῦ καὶ κέκτηται καὶ ἔχει αὐτό. ἢ οὐδέν σοι δοκῶ λέγειν, ἀλλὰ λανθάνω καὶ ἐμαυτὸν οἰόμενός τινος ὥσπερ ἴχνους ἐφάπτεσθαι τῆς Ὁμήρου δόξης περὶ ὀνομάτων ὀρθότητος;
Hermogenes. No, by Zeus, you are not wrong, in my opinion; I think perhaps you have found a clue.
ΕΡΜ. μὰ Δίʼ οὐ σύ γε, ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκεῖς, ἀλλὰ ἴσως τοῦ ἐφάπτῃ.
Socrates. It is right, I think, to call a lion’s offspring a lion and a horse’s offspring a horse. I am not speaking of prodigies, such as the birth of some other kind of creature from a horse, but of the natural offspring of each species after its kind. If a horse, contrary to nature, should bring forth a calf, the natural offspring of a cow, it should be called a calf, not a colt, nor if any offspring that is not human should be born from a human being, should that other offspring be called a human being; and the same applies to trees and all the rest. Do you not agree?
ΣΩ. δίκαιόν γέ τοί ἐστιν, ὡς ἐμοὶ φαίνεται, τὸν λέοντος ἔκγονον λέοντα καλεῖν καὶ τὸν ἵππου ἔκγονον ἵππον. οὔ τι λέγω ἐὰν ὥσπερ τέρας γένηται ἐξ ἵππου ἄλλο τι ἢ ἵππος, ἀλλʼ οὗ ἂν ᾖ τοῦ γένους ἔκγονον τὴν φύσιν, τοῦτο λέγω· ἐὰν βοὸς ἔκγονον φύσει ἵππος παρὰ φύσιν τέκῃ μόσχον, οὐ πῶλον κλητέον ἀλλὰ μόσχον· οὐδʼ ἂν ἐξ ἀνθρώπου οἶμαι μὴ τὸ ἀνθρώπου ἔκγονον γένηται, [ἀλλʼ ὃ ἂν] τὸ ἔκγονον ἄνθρωπος κλητέος· καὶ τὰ δένδρα ὡσαύτως καὶ τἆλλα ἅπαντα· ἢ οὐ συνδοκεῖ;
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. συνδοκεῖ.
Socrates. Good; but keep watch of me, and do not let me trick you; for by the same argument any offspring of a king should be called a king; and whether the same meaning is expressed in one set of syllables or another makes no difference; and if a letter is added or subtracted, that does not matter either, so long as the essence of the thing named remains in force and is made plain in the name.
ΣΩ. καλῶς λέγεις· φύλαττε γάρ με μή πῃ παρακρούσωμαί σε. κατὰ γὰρ τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον κἂν ἐκ βασιλέως γίγνηταί τι ἔκγονον, βασιλεὺς κλητέος· εἰ δὲ ἐν ἑτέραις συλλαβαῖς ἢ ἐν ἑτέραις τὸ αὐτὸ σημαίνει, οὐδὲν πρᾶγμα· οὐδʼ εἰ πρόσκειταί τι γράμμα ἢ ἀφῄρηται, οὐδὲν οὐδὲ τοῦτο, ἕως ἂν ἐγκρατὴς ᾖ ἡ οὐσία τοῦ πράγματος δηλουμένη ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι.
Hermogenes. What do you mean?
ΕΡΜ. πῶς τοῦτο λέγεις;
Socrates. Something quite simple. For instance, when we speak of the letters of the alphabet, you know, we speak their names, not merely the letters themselves, except in the case of four, ε, υ, ο, ω. We make names for all the other vowels and consonants by adding other letters to them; and so long as we include the letter in question and make its force plain, we may properly call it by that name, and that will designate it for us. Take beta, for instance, The addition of e(η), t(τ), a(α) does no harm and does not prevent the whole name from making clear the nature of that letter which the lawgiver wished to designate; he knew so well how to give names to letters.
ΣΩ. οὐδὲν ποικίλον, ἀλλʼ ὥσπερ τῶν στοιχείων οἶσθα ὅτι ὀνόματα λέγομεν ἀλλʼ οὐκ αὐτὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα, πλὴν τεττάρων, τοῦ Ε καὶ τοῦ Υ καὶ τοῦ Ο καὶ τοῦ Ω· τοῖς δʼ ἄλλοις φωνήεσί τε καὶ ἀφώνοις οἶσθα ὅτι περιτιθέντες ἄλλα γράμματα λέγομεν, ὀνόματα ποιοῦντες· ἀλλʼ ἕως ἂν αὐτοῦ δηλουμένην τὴν δύναμιν ἐντιθῶμεν, ὀρθῶς ἔχει ἐκεῖνο τὸ ὄνομα καλεῖν ὃ αὐτὸ ἡμῖν δηλώσει. οἷον τὸ βῆτα· ὁρᾷς ὅτι τοῦ ἦτα καὶ τοῦ ταῦ καὶ τοῦ ἄλφα προστεθέντων οὐδὲν ἐλύπησεν, ὥστε μὴ οὐχὶ τὴν ἐκείνου τοῦ στοιχείου φύσιν δηλῶσαι ὅλῳ τῷ ὀνόματι οὗ ἐβούλετο ὁ νομοθέτης· οὕτως ἠπιστήθη καλῶς θέσθαι τοῖς γράμμασι τὰ ὀνόματα.
Hermogenes. I think you are right.Socrates. Does not the same reasoning apply to a king?
ΕΡΜ. ἀληθῆ μοι δοκεῖς λέγειν.
394. A king’s son will probably be a king, a good man’s good, a handsome man’s handsome, and so forth; the offspring of each class will be of the same class, unless some unnatural birth takes place; so they should be called by the same names. But variety in the syllables is admissible, so that names which are the same appear different to the uninitiated, just as the physicians’ drugs, when prepared with various colors and perfumes, seem different to us, though they are the same, but to the physician, who considers only their medicinal value, they seem the same, and he is not confused by the additions. So perhaps the man who knows about names considers their value and is not confused if some letter is added, transposed, or subtracted, or even if the force of the name is expressed in entirely different letters. So, for instance, in the names we were just discussing, Astyanax and Hector, none of the letters is the same, except T, but nevertheless they have the same meaning. And what letters has Archepolis (ruler of the city) in common with them? Yet it means the same thing; and there are many other names which mean simply “king.” Others again mean “general,” such as Agis (leader), Polemarchus (war-lord), and Eupolemus (good warrior); and others indicate physicians, as Iatrocles (famous physician) and Acesimbrotus (healer of mortals); and we might perhaps find many others which differ in syllables and letters, but express the same meaning. Do you think that is true, or not?Hermogenes. Certainly.
394. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ περὶ βασιλέως ὁ αὐτὸς λόγος; ἔσται γάρ ποτε ἐκ βασιλέως βασιλεύς, καὶ ἐξ ἀγαθοῦ ἀγαθός, καὶ ἐκ καλοῦ καλός, καὶ τἆλλα πάντα οὕτως, ἐξ ἑκάστου γένους ἕτερον τοιοῦτον ἔκγονον, ἐὰν μὴ τέρας γίγνηται· κλητέον δὴ ταὐτὰ ὀνόματα. ποικίλλειν δὲ ἔξεστι ταῖς συλλαβαῖς, ὥστε δόξαι ἂν τῷ ἰδιωτικῶς ἔχοντι ἕτερα εἶναι ἀλλήλων τὰ αὐτὰ ὄντα· ὥσπερ ἡμῖν τὰ τῶν ἰατρῶν φάρμακα χρώμασιν καὶ ὀσμαῖς πεποικιλμένα ἄλλα φαίνεται τὰ αὐτὰ ὄντα, τῷ δέ γε ἰατρῷ, ἅτε τὴν δύναμιν τῶν φαρμάκων σκοπουμένῳ, τὰ αὐτὰ φαίνεται, καὶ οὐκ ἐκπλήττεται ὑπὸ τῶν προσόντων. οὕτω δὲ ἴσως καὶ ὁ ἐπιστάμενος περὶ ὀνομάτων τὴν δύναμιν αὐτῶν σκοπεῖ, καὶ οὐκ ἐκπλήττεται εἴ τι πρόσκειται γράμμα ἢ μετάκειται ἢ ἀφῄρηται, ἢ καὶ ἐν ἄλλοις παντάπασιν γράμμασίν ἐστιν ἡ τοῦ ὀνόματος δύναμις. ὥσπερ ὃ νυνδὴ ἐλέγομεν, Ἀστυάναξ τε καὶ Ἕκτωρ οὐδὲν τῶν αὐτῶν γραμμάτων ἔχει πλὴν τοῦ ταῦ, ἀλλʼ ὅμως ταὐτὸν σημαίνει. καὶ Ἀρχέπολίς γε τῶν μὲν γραμμάτων τί ἐπικοινωνεῖ; δηλοῖ δὲ ὅμως τὸ αὐτό· καὶ ἄλλα πολλά ἐστιν ἃ οὐδὲν ἀλλʼ ἢ βασιλέα σημαίνει· καὶ ἄλλα γε αὖ στρατηγόν, οἷον Ἆγις καὶ Πολέμαρχος καὶ Εὐπόλεμος. καὶ ἰατρικά γε ἕτερα, Ἰατροκλῆς καὶ Ἀκεσίμβροτος· καὶ ἕτερα ἂν ἴσως συχνὰ εὕροιμεν ταῖς μὲν συλλαβαῖς καὶ τοῖς γράμμασι διαφωνοῦντα, τῇ δὲ δυνάμει ταὐτὸν φθεγγόμενα. φαίνεται οὕτως ἢ οὔ;ΕΡΜ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Socrates. To those, then, who are born in accordance with nature the same names should be given.
ΣΩ. τοῖς μὲν δὴ κατὰ φύσιν γιγνομένοις τὰ αὐτὰ ἀποδοτέον ὀνόματα.
Hermogenes. Yes.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. And how about those who are born contrary to nature as prodigies? For instance, when an impious son is born to a good and pious man, ought he not, as in our former example when a mare brought forth a calf, to have the designation of the class to which he belongs, instead of that of his parent?
ΣΩ. τί δὲ τοῖς παρὰ φύσιν, οἳ ἂν ἐν τέρατος εἴδει γένωνται; οἷον ὅταν ἐξ ἀνδρὸς ἀγαθοῦ καὶ θεοσεβοῦς ἀσεβὴς γένηται, ἆρʼ οὐχ ὥσπερ ἐν τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν, κἂν ἵππος βοὸς ἔκγονον τέκῃ, οὐ τοῦ τεκόντος δήπου ἔδει τὴν ἐπωνυμίαν ἔχειν, ἀλλὰ τοῦ γένους οὗ εἴη;
Hermogenes. Certainly.
ΕΡΜ. πάνυ γε.
Socrates. Then the impious son of a pious father ought to receive the name of his class.
ΣΩ. καὶ τῷ ἐκ τοῦ εὐσεβοῦς ἄρα γενομένῳ ἀσεβεῖ τὸ τοῦ γένους ὄνομα ἀποδοτέον.
Hermogenes. True.
ΕΡΜ. ἔστι ταῦτα.
Socrates. Not Theophilus (beloved of God) or Mnesitheus (mindful of God) or anything of that sort; but something of opposite meaning, if names are correct.
ΣΩ. οὐ Θεόφιλον, ὡς ἔοικεν, οὐδὲ Μνησίθεον οὐδὲ τῶν τοιούτων οὐδέν· ἀλλʼ ὅτι τἀναντία τούτοις σημαίνει, ἐάνπερ τῆς ὀρθότητος τυγχάνῃ τὰ ὀνόματα.
Hermogenes. Most assuredly, Socrates.
ΕΡΜ. παντός γε μᾶλλον, ὦ Σώκρατες.
Socrates. As the name of Orestes (mountain man) is undoubtedly correct, Hermogenes, whether it was given him by chance or by some poet who indicated by the name the fierceness, rudeness, and mountain-wildness of his nature.
ΣΩ. ὥσπερ γε καὶ ὁ Ὀρέστης, ὦ Ἑρμόγενες, κινδυνεύει ὀρθῶς ἔχειν, εἴτε τις τύχη ἔθετο αὐτῷ τὸ ὄνομα εἴτε καὶ ποιητής τις, τὸ θηριῶδες τῆς φύσεως καὶ τὸ ἄγριον αὐτοῦ καὶ τὸ ὀρεινὸν ἐνδεικνύμενος τῷ ὀνόματι.
395. Hermogenes. So it seems, Socrates.
395. ΕΡΜ. φαίνεται οὕτως, ὦ Σώκρατες.
Socrates. And his father’s name also appears to be in accordance with nature.
ΣΩ. ἔοικεν δέ γε καὶ τῷ πατρὶ αὐτοῦ κατὰ φύσιν τὸ ὄνομα εἶναι.
Hermogenes. It seems so.
ΕΡΜ. φαίνεται.
Socrates. Yes, for Agamemnon (admirable for remaining) is one who would resolve to toil to the end and to endure, putting the finish upon his resolution by virtue. And a proof of this is his long retention of the host at Troy and his endurance. So the name Agamemnon denotes that this man is admirable for remaining. And so, too, the name of Atreus is likely to be correct; for his murder of Chrysippus and the cruelty of his acts to Thyestes are all damaging and ruinous (ἀτηρά) to his virtue. Now the form of his name is slightly deflected and hidden, so that it does not make the man’s nature plain to every one; but to those who understand about names it makes the meaning of Atreus plain enough; for indeed in view of his stubbornness (ἀτειρές) and fearlessness (ἄτρεστον) and ruinous acts (ἀτηρά) the name is correctly given to him on every ground. And I think Pelops also has a fitting name; for this name means that he who sees only what is near deserves this designation.
ΣΩ. κινδυνεύει γὰρ τοιοῦτός τις εἶναι ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων, οἷος ἃ δόξειεν αὐτῷ διαπονεῖσθαι καὶ καρτερεῖν τέλος ἐπιτιθεὶς τοῖς δόξασι διʼ ἀρετήν. σημεῖον δὲ αὐτοῦ ἡ ἐν Τροίᾳ μονὴ τοῦ πάθους τε καὶ καρτερίας. ὅτι οὖν ἀγαστὸς κατὰ τὴν ἐπιμονὴν οὗτος ὁ ἀνὴρ ἐνσημαίνει τὸ ὄνομα ὁ Ἀγαμέμνων. ἴσως δὲ καὶ ὁ Ἀτρεὺς ὀρθῶς ἔχει. ὅ τε γὰρ τοῦ Χρυσίππου αὐτῷ φόνος καὶ ἃ πρὸς τὸν Θυέστην ὡς ὠμὰ διεπράττετο, πάντα ταῦτα ζημιώδη καὶ ἀτηρὰ πρὸς ἀρετήν. ἡ οὖν τοῦ ὀνόματος ἐπωνυμία σμικρὸν παρακλίνει καὶ ἐπικεκάλυπται, ὥστε μὴ πᾶσι δηλοῦν τὴν φύσιν τοῦ ἀνδρός· τοῖς δʼ ἐπαΐουσι περὶ ὀνομάτων ἱκανῶς δηλοῖ ὃ βούλεται ὁ Ἀτρεύς. καὶ γὰρ κατὰ τὸ ἀτειρὲς καὶ κατὰ τὸ ἄτρεστον καὶ κατὰ τὸ ἀτηρὸν πανταχῇ ὀρθῶς αὐτῷ τὸ ὄνομα κεῖται. δοκεῖ δέ μοι καὶ τῷ Πέλοπι τὸ ὄνομα ἐμμέτρως κεῖσθαι· σημαίνει γὰρ τοῦτο τὸ ὄνομα τὸν τὰ ἐγγὺς ὁρῶντα [ἄξιον εἶναι ταύτης τῆς ἐπωνυμίας].