958. Ath. but for those whose opinions are really fixed by Fate, —if they assigned death as a cure for souls in this condition (a statement that deserves to be often repeated), such judges and leaders of judges would merit praise from the whole State.
958. ΑΘ.οἷσιν δὲ ὄντως ἐπικεκλωσμέναι, θάνατον ἴαμα ταῖς οὕτω διατεθείσαις ψυχαῖς διανέμοντες, ὃ δικαίως εἴη πολλάκις ἂν εἰρημένον, ἄξιοι ἐπαίνου γίγνοιντʼ ἂν τῇ πάσῃ πόλει τοιοῦτοι δικασταὶ καὶ δικαστῶν ἡγεμόνες.ἐπειδὰν δὲ αἱ κατʼ ἐνιαυτὸν δίκαι τέλος ἐκδικασθεῖσαι σχῶσι, ταῖς πράξεσι νόμους αὐτῶν χρεὼν γίγνεσθαι τούσδε·
958a. When all the lawsuits for the year have been finally adjudged, we must have laws for the execution of the verdicts to this effect:—First, the magistrate who is acting as judge shall assign to the victorious party all the goods of the party convicted, excepting such as the latter must necessarily retain in his possession; and this he shall do in each case immediately after the voting has taken place by means of a herald’s proclamation made in the hearing of the judges; and unless the loser settle with the victor to their mutual satisfaction by the end of the month next to those in which the courts are sitting, the magistrate who has tried the case shall, at the instance of the victor, hand over to him the goods of the loser. And if the means are not forthcoming, and there be a deficiency of not less than a drachma, the loser in question shall be precluded from suing anyone else until he has paid to the full his whole debt to the victor; but others may bring valid actions against him.
958a. πρῶτον μὲν ἡ δικάζουσα ἀρχὴ τὰ τοῦ ὀφλόντος τῷ νικήσαντι χρήματα πάντα ἀποδιδότω, χωρὶς τῶν ἀναγκαίων κεκτῆσθαι, μετὰ τὴν διαψήφισιν ἑκάστην εὐθὺς ὑπὸ κήρυκος, ἀκουόντων τῶν δικαστῶν· ἐπειδὰν δὲ ὁ τῶν δικασίμων μηνῶν ἐχόμενος γένηται μήν, ἐάν τις μὴ ἀπαλλάττῃ τὸν νικήσαντα ἑκόντα ἑκών, ἡ δικάσασα ἀρχὴ συνεπομένη τῷ νικῶντι τὰ τοῦ ὀφλόντος παραδιδότω χρήματα. ἐὰν δὲ μὴ ἔχωσιν ὁπόθεν, ἐλλείπῃ δὲ μὴ ἔλαττον δραχμῆς, μὴ πρότερον εἶναι τούτῳ δίκας πρὸς ἄλλον μηδένα, πρὶν ἂν ἐκπληρώσῃ τὸ χρέος ἅπαν τῷ νικήσαντι·
958c. If anyone, when condemned, obstructs the court which condemned him, the officials thus wrongfully obstructed shall summon him before the court of the Law-wardens, and anyone who is cast in such an action, as being guilty of subverting the whole State and its laws, shall be punished by death. Next, when a man has been born and reared, and has himself begotten and reared up children, and has engaged reasonably in the transactions of business, giving or receiving (as the case may be) compensation for wrongs done,—when he has thus duly grown old in a law-abiding life, his end will come in the course of nature.
958c. ἄλλοις δὲ πρὸς τοῦτον ἔστωσαν δίκαι κυρίως. ἐὰν δέ τις ἀφῃρῆται τὴν ἀρχὴν τὴν καταδικάσασαν καταδικασθείς, εἰσαγόντων μὲν αὐτὸν εἰς τὸ τῶν νομοφυλάκων δικαστήριον οἱ ἀφαιρεθέντες ἀδίκως, ἐὰν δέ τις ὄφλῃ τὴν τοιαύτην δίκην, ὡς ὅλην τὴν πόλιν καὶ νόμους φθείρων θανάτῳ ζημιούσθω.ἀνδρὶ δὴ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο γεννηθέντι καὶ ἐκτραφέντι, καὶ γεννήσαντι καὶ ἐκθρέψαντι τέκνα, καὶ συμμείξαντι συμβόλαια μετρίως, διδόντι τε δίκας εἴ τινα ἠδικήκει καὶ παρʼ ἑτέρου ἐκλαβόντι, σὺν τοῖς νόμοις ἐν μοίρᾳ γηράσαντι τελευτὴ γίγνοιτʼ ἂν κατὰ φύσιν.
958d. Touching the dead, male or female, what the sacred rites are which require to be performed in respect of the gods of the underworld, or of this world, shall be declared by the Interpreters as the final authorities: no tombs, however, shall be put in places that are tilled,—whether the monument be small or great,—but they shall fill up those places where the soil is naturally fitted for this purpose only,— namely, to receive and hide the bodies of the dead with the least hurt to the living; but as regards all the places which of their own nature desire to produce food for mankind, of these no one, living or dead, shall deprive us who are alive.
958d. περὶ τελευτήσαντας δή, εἴτε τις ἄρρην εἴτε τις θῆλυς ᾖ, τὰ μὲν περὶ τὰ θεῖα νόμιμα τῶν τε ὑπὸ γῆς θεῶν καὶ τῶν τῇδε, ὅσα προσήκει τελεῖσθαι, τοὺς ἐξηγητὰς γίγνεσθαι κυρίους φράζοντας· θήκας δʼ εἶναι τῶν χωρίων ὁπόσα μὲν ἐργάσιμα μηδαμοῦ, μήτε τι μέγα μήτε τι σμικρὸν μνῆμα, ἃ δὲ ἡ χώρα πρὸς τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ μόνον φύσιν ἔχει, τὰ τῶν τετελευτηκότων σώματα μάλιστα ἀλυπήτως τοῖς ζῶσι δεχομένη κρύπτειν, ταῦτα ἐκπληροῦν, τοῖς δὲ ἀνθρώποις ὅσα τροφὴν μήτηρ οὖσα ἡ γῆ πρὸς ταῦτα πέφυκεν βούλεσθαι φέρειν, μήτε ζῶν μήτε τις ἀποθανὼν στερείτω τὸν ζῶνθʼ ἡμῶν.
959. Ath. And they shall not pile up a mound to a height greater than can be made by five men in five days; nor shall they erect stone pillars of a size more than is required to hold, at the most, a eulogy of the dead man’s life consisting of not more than four heroic lines.
959. ΑΘ. χῶμα δὲ μὴ χοῦν ὑψηλότερον πέντε ἀνδρῶν ἔργον, ἐν πένθʼ ἡμέραις ἀποτελούμενον· λίθινα δὲ ἐπιστήματα μὴ μείζω ποιεῖν ἢ ὅσα δέχεσθαι τῶν τοῦ τετελευτηκότος ἐγκώμια βίου μὴ πλείω τεττάρων ἡρωικῶν στίχων.
959a. And as to the laying-out of the corpse, first, it shall remain in the house only for such a time as is required to prove that the man is not merely in a faint, but really dead; and accordingly, in a normal case, the third will be the proper day for the carrying out to burial. As in other matters it is right to trust the lawgiver, so too we must believe him when he asserts that the soul is wholly superior to the body, and that in actual life what makes each of us to be what he is is nothing else than the soul, while the body is a semblance which attends on each of us, it being well said that the bodily corpses are images of the dead, but that which is the real self of each of us, and which we term the immortal soul, departs to the presence of other gods, there (as the ancestral law declares) to render its account,—a prospect to be faced with courage by the good, but with uttermost dread by the evil.
959a. τὰς δὲ προθέσεις πρῶτον μὲν μὴ μακρότερον χρόνον ἔνδον γίγνεσθαι τοῦ δηλοῦντος τόν τε ἐκτεθνεῶτα καὶ τὸν ὄντως τεθνηκότα, εἴη δʼ ἂν σχεδόν, ὡς τἀνθρώπινα, μέτρον ἔχουσα τριταία πρὸς τὸ μνῆμα ἐκφορά. πείθεσθαι δʼ ἐστὶ τῷ νομοθέτῃ χρεὼν τά τε ἄλλα καὶ λέγοντι ψυχὴν σώματος εἶναι τὸ πᾶν διαφέρουσαν, ἐν αὐτῷ τε τῷ βίῳ τὸ παρεχόμενον ἡμῶν ἕκαστον τοῦτʼ εἶναι μηδὲν ἀλλʼ ἢ τὴν ψυχήν, τὸ δὲ σῶμα ἰνδαλλόμενον ἡμῶν ἑκάστοις ἕπεσθαι, καὶ τελευτησάντων λέγεσθαι καλῶς εἴδωλα εἶναι τὰ τῶν νεκρῶν σώματα, τὸν δὲ ὄντα ἡμῶν ἕκαστον ὄντως, ἀθάνατον εἶναι ψυχὴν ἐπονομαζόμενον, παρὰ θεοὺς ἄλλους ἀπιέναι δώσοντα λόγον, καθάπερ ὁ νόμος ὁ πάτριος λέγει—τῷ μὲν γὰρ ἀγαθῷ θαρραλέον, τῷ δὲ κακῷ μάλα φοβερόν—βοήθειάν τε αὐτῷ μήτινα μεγάλην εἶναι τετελευτηκότι·
959b. But to him who is dead no great help can be given; it was when he was alive that all his relatives should have helped him, so that when living his life might have been as just and holy as possible, and when dead he might be free during the life which follows this life from the penalty for wickedness and sin.
959b. ζῶντι γὰρ ἔδει βοηθεῖν πάντας τοὺς προσήκοντας, ὅπως ὅτι δικαιότατος ὢν καὶ ὁσιώτατος ἔζη τε ζῶν καὶ τελευτήσας ἀτιμώρητος ἂν κακῶν ἁμαρτημάτων ἐγίγνετο τὸν μετὰ τὸν ἐνθάδε βίον.
959c. This being so, one ought never to spend extravagantly on the dead, through supposing that the carcass of flesh that is being buried is in the truest sense one’s own relative; but one ought rather to suppose that the real son or brother—or whoever else it may be that a man fancies himself to be mournfully burying—has departed in furtherance and fulfillment of his own destiny, and that it is our duty to make a wise use of what we have and to spend in moderation, as it were on a soulless altar to the gods below: and what constitutes moderation the lawgiver will most properly divine.
959c. ἐκ δὲ τούτων οὕτως ἐχόντων οὐδέποτε οἰκοφθορεῖν χρή, διαφερόντως νομίζοντα τὸν αὑτοῦ τοῦτον εἶναι τὸν τῶν σαρκῶν ὄγκον θαπτόμενον, ἀλλʼ ἐκεῖνον τὸν ὑὸν ἢ ἀδελφόν, ἢ ὅντινά τις μάλισθʼ ἡγεῖται ποθῶν θάπτειν, οἴχεσθαι περαίνοντα καὶ ἐμπιμπλάντα τὴν αὑτοῦ μοῖραν, τὸ δὲ παρὸν δεῖν εὖ ποιεῖν, τὰ μέτρια ἀναλίσκοντα ὡς εἰς ἄψυχον χθονίων βωμόν·
959d. Let this, then, be the law:—An expenditure on the whole funeral not exceeding five minas for a man of the highest property-class, three minas for one of the second class, two for one of the third, and one mina for one of the fourth class, shall be held to be moderate amounts. The Law-wardens must of necessity perform many other duties and supervise many other matters, but by no means the least of their duties is to live keeping a constant watch over children and men and people of every age; and at the end of his life above all everyone must have some one Law-warden to take charge of him—that one who is called in as overseer by the relatives of the dead man; and it shall stand to his credit if the arrangements about the dead man are carried out in a proper and moderate way, but if improperly, to his discredit.
959d. τὸ δὲ μέτριον νομοθέτης ἂν μαντεύσαιτο οὐκ ἀσχημονέστατα. ἔστω δὴ νόμος οὗτος· τῷ μὲν δὴ τοῦ μεγίστου τιμήματος εἰς τὴν πᾶσαν ταφὴν ἀναλισκόμενα μὴ πλέον πέντε μνῶν, τῷ δὲ τοῦ δευτέρου τρεῖς μναῖ, καὶ δύο τῷ τοῦ τρίτου, μνᾶ δὲ τῷ τοῦ τετάρτου μέτρον ἂν ἔχοι τῶν ἀναλωμάτων. νομοφύλαξι δὲ πολλά τε ἄλλα ἀνάγκη πράττειν καὶ πολλῶν ἐπιμελεῖσθαι, τούτων δʼ οὐχ ἥκιστα, ὅπως ἂν παίδων τε καὶ ἀνδρῶν καὶ πάσης ἡλικίας ἐπιμελούμενοι ζῶσι, καὶ δὴ καὶ πρὸς τὸ τέλος ἁπάντων νομοφύλαξ εἷς γέ τις ἐπιστατῇ, ὃν ἂν οἱ τοῦ τετελευτηκότος ἐπίσκοπον οἰκεῖοι παραλάβωσιν, ᾧ καλόν τʼ ἔστω καλῶς καὶ μετρίως τὰ περὶ τὸν τετελευτηκότα γιγνόμενα καὶ μὴ καλῶς αἰσχρόν.
960. Ath. The laying-out of the corpse and the other arrangements shall be carried out in accordance with the custom concerning such matters, but it is right that custom should give way to the following regulations of State law:—Either to ordain or to prohibit weeping for the dead is unseemly, but we shall forbid loud mourning and lamentation outside the house, and we shall prohibit the carrying out of the dead on to the open roads and making lamentation while he is borne through the streets, and the funeral party must be outside the city-bounds before day-break.
960. ΑΘ. πρόθεσις δὲ καὶ τἆλλα ἔστω μὲν κατὰ τὸν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα νόμον γιγνόμενα, τῷ δὲ πολιτικῷ νομοθετοῦντι παραχωρεῖν χρὴ τὰ τοιάδε· δακρύειν μὲν τὸν τετελευτηκότα ἐπιτάττειν ἢ μὴ ἄμορφον, θρηνεῖν δὲ καὶ ἔξω τῆς οἰκίας φωνὴν ἐξαγγέλλειν ἀπαγορεύειν, καὶ τὸν νεκρὸν εἰς τὸ φανερὸν προάγειν τῶν ὁδῶν κωλύειν, καὶ ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς πορευόμενον φθέγγεσθαι, καὶ πρὸ ἡμέρας ἔξω τῆς πόλεως εἶναι.
960a. These shall be the legal regulations regarding such matters: he that obeys them shall be free from penalty, but he that disobeys a single one of the Law-wardens shall be penalized by them all with the penalty adjudged by all in common.
960a. ταῦτα δὴ κείσθω τε οὕτω περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα νόμιμα, καὶ ὁ μὲν πειθόμενος ἔστω ζημίας ἐκτός, ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν ἑνὶ τῶν νομοφυλάκων ὑπὸ πάντων ζημιούσθω τῇ δοξάσῃ πᾶσι κοινῇ ζημίᾳ.
960b. All other interments of the dead, or disposal of corpses without interment in the cases of parricides, temple-robbers, and all such criminals,—have been previously dealt with and laid down by law, so that our task of legislation has nearly come to an end. But in every case, the full end does not consist in the doing, gaining or founding of an object; rather our view should be that it is only when we have discovered a means of salvation, endless and complete, for our creation, that we are at length justified in believing that we have done all that ought to be done: until then, we must believe, the whole of our creation is incomplete.
960b. ὅσαι δʼ ἄλλαι γίγνονται περὶ τελευτήσαντας ταφαὶ εἴτε καὶ ἄταφοι πράξεις, περὶ πατροφόνων καὶ ἱεροσύλων καὶ τῶν τοιούτων πάντων, εἰρημέναι ἐν τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν κεῖνται διὰ νόμων, ὥστε σχεδὸν ἡ νομοθεσία τέλος ἂν ἡμῖν ἔχοι· τῶν πάντων δʼ ἑκάστοτε τέλος οὐ τὸ δρᾶσαί τι σχεδὸν οὐδὲ τὸ κτήσασθαι κατοικίσαι τʼ ἐστίν, ἀλλὰ τῷ γεννηθέντι σωτηρίαν ἐξευρόντα τελέως ἀεί, τότʼ ἤδη νομίζειν πᾶν ὅσον δεῖ πραχθῆναι πεπρᾶχθαι, πρότερον δʼ ἀτελὲς εἶναι τὸ ὅλον.
960c. Clin. You say well, Stranger; but explain to us yet more clearly the purport of your last observation.
960c. ΚΛ. καλῶς, ὦ ξένε, λέγεις· πρὸς ὅτι δὲ τὸ νῦν αὖ ῥηθὲν εἴρηται, φράζʼ ἔτι σαφέστερον.
Ath. O Clinias, many of the sayings of old time have been nobly uttered, and of these not the least, I may say, are the titles given to the Fates.
ΑΘ. ὦ Κλεινία, πολλὰ τῶν ἔμπροσθεν καλῶς ὕμνηται, σχεδὸν δὲ οὐχ ἥκιστα τὰ τῶν Μοιρῶν προσρήματα.
Clin. What titles, pray?
ΚΛ. ποῖα δή;
Ath. That the first of them is Lachesis, the second Clotho, and Atropos the savior-third —she that bestows on the dooms ratified by Clotho the quality of irreversibility.
ΑΘ. τὸ Λάχεσιν μὲν τὴν πρώτην εἶναι, Κλωθὼ δὲ τὴν δευτέραν, τὴν Ἄτροπον δὴ τρίτην σώτειραν τῶν λεχθέντων, ἀπῃκασμένα τῇ τῶν κλωσθέντων τῷ πυρὶ τὴν ἀμετάστροφον ἀπεργαζομένων δύναμιν·
960d. She it is that must furnish also to the State and its citizens, not merely health and salvation for their bodies, but also right legality in their souls, or rather the salvation of the laws. And this, as it seems clear to me, is what our laws still lack—namely, a right mode of naturally implanting in them this irreversible quality.
960d. ἃ δὴ καὶ πόλει καὶ πολιτείᾳ δεῖ μὴ μόνον ὑγίειαν καὶ σωτηρίαν τοῖς σώμασι παρασκευάζειν, ἀλλὰ καὶ εὐνομίαν ἐν ταῖς ψυχαῖς, μᾶλλον δὲ σωτηρίαν τῶν νόμων. ἡμῖν δʼ ἔτι μοι φαίνεσθαι δοκεῖ τοῦτʼ ἐλλεῖπον τοῖς νόμοις εἶναι, πῶς χρὴ τὴν ἀμετάστροφον αὐτοῖς ἐγγίγνεσθαι κατὰ φύσιν δύναμιν.
Clin. The point you mention is a serious one, if it is really impossible to discover a means whereby everything may acquire some such quality.
ΚΛ. οὐ σμικρὸν λέγεις, εἴπερ ἐστὶ μὴ δυνατὸν εὑρεῖν ὅπῃ γίγνοιτʼ ἂν παντὶ κτῆμά τι τοιοῦτον.
960e. Ath. Nay, but it is possible, as I now perceive quite clearly.
960e. ΑΘ. ἀλλʼ ἔστι μὴν δυνατόν, ὥς γέ μοι τὰ νῦν παντάπασι καταφαίνεται.
Clin. Then let us by no means desist until we have secured this very quality for the laws we have stated; for it would be ridiculous for us to have wasted all this labor on an object, and then not base it on any firm foundation.
ΚΛ. μὴ τοίνυν ἀφιστώμεθα μηδενὶ τρόπῳ, πρὶν ἂν τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ ἐκπορισώμεθα τοῖς εἰρημένοις νόμοις· γελοῖον γὰρ τό γε μάτην πονήσαντα ὁτιοῦν εἰς μηδὲν βέβαιον καταβαλεῖν.
Ath. You are right in your exhortation, and you will find me as ready as yourself to proceed.
ΑΘ. ὀρθῶς παρακελεύῃ, καὶ ἐμὲ τοιοῦτον εὑρήσεις ἄλλον.
Clin. Very good. Then what is it you say will prove a means of salvation to our polity and its laws, and how will it do so?
ΚΛ. καλῶς δὴ λέγεις. τίς οὖν δή, φῄς, σωτηρία γίγνοιτʼ ἂν καὶ τίνα τρόπον πολιτείᾳ τε καὶ τοῖς νόμοις ἡμῖν;
961a. Ath. Did we not say that we must have in our State a synod of the following kind:—The ten senior members, at the moment, of the body of Law-wardens shall form the synod, in company with all who have won the award of merit; and, moreover, those inspectors who have gone abroad to discover if they could hear of anything pertinent to the safekeeping of laws, and who, in the belief that they have succeeded, have come safely home again, shall, after undergoing a searching test, be deemed worthy to take part in the synod? In addition to these, every member must bring with him one of the young men, not less than thirty years old, whom he has first selected as being both by nature and training a suitable person; after selecting him, he shall introduce him among the members, and if they also approve, he shall keep him as a colleague, but if they disapprove, the fact of his original selection must be concealed from all the rest, and especially from the person thus rejected.
961a. ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὐκ εἴπομεν ὅτι δεῖ σύλλογον ἡμῖν ἐν τῇ πόλει γίγνεσθαι τοιόνδε τινά; δέκα μὲν τῶν νομοφυλάκων τοὺς πρεσβυτάτους ἀεί, τοὺς δὲ τἀριστεῖα εἰληφότας ἅπαντας δεῖν εἰς ταὐτὸ συλλέγεσθαι τούτοις, ἔτι δὲ τοὺς ἐκδημήσαντας ἐπὶ ζήτησιν εἴ τί που πρὸς τὴν νομοφυλακίαν γίγνοιτο ἓν καίριον ἀκοῦσαι καὶ σωθέντας οἴκαδε, δόξαι, τούτοις αὐτοῖς διαβασανισθέντας, τοῦ συλλόγου ἀξιοκοινωνήτους εἶναι· πρὸς τούτοις δὲ ἕνα ἕκαστον δεῖν προσλαμβάνειν τῶν νέων, μὴ ἔλαττον ἢ τριάκοντʼ ἔτη γεγονότα, πρῶτον δὲ αὐτὸν κρίναντα ἐπάξιον εἶναι φύσει καὶ τροφῇ, τὸν νέον οὕτως εἰς τοὺς ἄλλους εἰσφέρειν, καὶ ἐὰν μὲν δόξῃ καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις, προσλαμβάνειν, εἰ δὲ μή, ἀπόρρητον εἶναι τὴν γεγονυῖαν κρίσιν τοῖς τε ἄλλοις δὴ καὶ μάλιστʼ αὐτῷ τῷ ἀποκριθέντι·
961b. The synod must meet at an early hour, when everyone has his time most free from other business, private or public. Was it not some such organization as this that we described in our previous discourse?
961b. δεῖν δὲ ὄρθριον εἶναι τὸν σύλλογον, ἡνίκʼ ἂν τῶν ἄλλων πράξεων ἰδίων τε καὶ κοινῶν καὶ μάλιστʼ ᾖ τις σχολὴ παντί. τοιοῦτόν τί που λεχθὲν ἡμῖν ἦν ἐν τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν λόγοις;
961c. Clin. It was.
961c. ΚΛ. ἦν γὰρ οὖν.
Ath. Resuming, then, the subject of this synod, I will say this:—If one were to lay this down as an anchor for the whole State, possessing all the requisite conditions,—then, I affirm, it would secure the salvation of all that we desire.
ΑΘ. τούτου δὴ πέρι τοῦ συλλόγου πάλιν ἀναλαβὼν λέγοιμʼ ἂν τὸ τοιόνδε. φημί, εἴ τις τοῦτον βάλοιτο οἷον ἄγκυραν πάσης τῆς πόλεως, πάντα ἔχουσαν τὰ πρόσφορα ἑαυτῇ, σῴζειν ἂν σύμπαντα ἃ βουλόμεθα.
Ath. Now will be the time for us to display no lack of zeal in declaring truly what follows.
ΑΘ. τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο ἡμέτερος ἂν καιρὸς γίγνοιτο ὀρθῶς φράζοντας μηδὲν ἀπολείπειν προθυμίας.
Clin. Excellently spoken! Proceed as you propose.
ΚΛ. καὶ μάλα καλῶς εἶπες, ποίει θʼ ὥσπερ καὶ διανοῇ.
961d. Ath. One ought to observe, Clinias, in regard to every object, in each of its operations, what constitutes its appropriate savior—as, for example, in an animal, the soul and the head are eminently such by nature.
961d. ΑΘ. χρὴ τοίνυν, ὦ Κλεινία, παντὸς πέρι νοῆσαι σωτῆρα τὸν εἰκότα ἐν ἑκάστοις τῶν ἔργων, ὡς ἐν ζῴῳ ψυχὴ καὶ κεφαλή, τό γε μέγιστον, πεφύκατον.
Clin. How do you mean?
ΚΛ. πῶς αὖ φῄς;
Ath. Surely it is the goodness of those parts that provides salvation to every animal.
ΑΘ. ἡ τούτοιν ἀρετὴ δήπου παντὶ παρέχει ζῴῳ σωτηρίαν.
Ath. By the existence of reason in the soul, in addition to all its other qualities, and by the existence of sight and hearing, in addition to all else, in the head; thus, to summarize the matter, it is the combination of reason with the finest senses, and their union in one, that would most justly be termed the salvation of each animal.
ΑΘ. ψυχῇ μὲν πρὸς τοῖς ἄλλοις νοῦς ἐγγιγνόμενος, κεφαλῇ δʼ αὖ πρὸς τοῖς ἄλλοις ὄψις καὶ ἀκοή· συλλήβδην δὲ νοῦς μετὰ τῶν καλλίστων αἰσθήσεων κραθείς, γενόμενός τε εἰς ἕν, σωτηρία ἑκάστων δικαιότατʼ ἂν εἴη καλουμένη.
Clin. That is certainly probable.
ΚΛ. ἔοικε γοῦν.
961e. Ath. It is probable. But what kind of reason is it which, when combined with senses, will afford salvation to ships in stormy weather and calm? On shipboard is it not the pilot and the sailors who, by combining the senses with the pilot reason, secure salvation both for themselves and for all that belongs to the ship?
961e. ΑΘ. ἔοικε γάρ. ἀλλʼ ὁ περὶ τί νοῦς μετʼ αἰσθήσεων κραθεὶς σωτηρία πλοίων ἔν γε χειμῶσιν καὶ ἐν εὐδίαις γίγνοιτʼ ἄν; ἆρʼ οὐκ ἐν νηὶ κυβερνήτης ἅμα καὶ ναῦται τὰς αἰσθήσεις τῷ κυβερνητικῷ νῷ συγκερασάμενοι σῴζουσιν αὑτούς τε καὶ τὰ περὶ τὴν ναῦν;
Clin. Of course.
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
962. Ath. There is no need of many examples to illustrate this. Consider, for instance, what would be the right mark for a general to set up to shoot at in the case of an army, or the medical profession in the case of a human body, if they were aiming at salvation.
962. ΑΘ. οὐδὲν δὴ πολλῶν δεῖ τῶν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα παραδειγμάτων· ἀλλʼ οἷον περὶ στρατοπέδων νοήσωμεν τίνα θέμενοι στρατηγοὶ σκοπὸν καὶ ἰατρικὴ ὑπηρεσία πᾶσα στοχάζοιτʼ ἂν τῆς σωτηρίας ὀρθῶς.
962a. Would not the former make victory his mark, and mastery over the enemy, while that of the doctors and their assistants would be the providing of health to the body?
962a. ἆρʼ οὐχ ἡ μὲν νίκην καὶ κράτος πολεμίων, ἡ δὲ ἰατρῶν τε καὶ ὑπηρετῶν ὑγιείας σώματι παρασκευήν;
Clin. Certainly.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Ath. But if a doctor were ignorant of that bodily condition which we have now called “health,” or a general ignorant of victory, or any of the other matters we have mentioned, could he possibly be thought to possess reason about any of these things?
ΑΘ. ἰατρὸς δὴ τὸ περὶ σῶμα ἀγνοῶν, ὃ προσείπομεν ὑγίειαν νῦν, ἢ νίκην στρατηγὸς ἢ τῶν ἄλλων ὅσα δὴ διήλθομεν, ἔσθʼ ὅπως ἂν νοῦν περί τι τούτων ἂν ἔχων φαίνοιτο;
Clin. How could he?
ΚΛ. καὶ πῶς;
Ath. What, now, shall we say about a State? If a man were to be plainly ignorant as regards the political mark to be aimed at, would he, first of all, deserve the title of magistrate, and, secondly, would he be able to secure the salvation of that object concerning the aim of which he knows nothing at all?
ΑΘ. τί δὲ δὴ περὶ πόλιν; εἴ τις τὸν σκοπὸν οἷ βλέπειν δεῖ τὸν πολιτικὸν φαίνοιτο ἀγνοῶν, ἆρα ἄρχων μὲν πρῶτον δικαίως ἂν προσαγορεύοιτο, εἶτα σῴζειν ἂν δυνατὸς εἴη τοῦτο οὗ τὸν σκοπὸν τὸ παράπαν μηδʼ εἰδείη;
962b. Clin. How could he?
962b. ΚΛ. καὶ πῶς;
Ath. So now, in our present case, if our settlement of the country is to be finally completed, there must, it would seem, exist in it some element which knows, in the first place, what that political aim, of which we are speaking, really is, and, secondly, in what manner it may attain this aim, and which of the laws, in the first instance, and secondly of men, gives it good counsel or bad. But if any State is destitute of such an element, it will not be surprising if, being thus void of reason and void of sense, it acts at haphazard always in all its actions.
ΑΘ. δεῖ δὴ καὶ τὰ νῦν, ὡς ἔοικεν, εἴπερ μέλλει τέλος ὁ κατοικισμὸς τῆς χώρας ἡμῖν ἕξειν, εἶναί τι τὸ γιγνῶσκον ἐν αὐτῷ πρῶτον μὲν τοῦτο ὃ λέγομεν, τὸν σκοπόν, ὅστις ποτὲ ὁ πολιτικὸς ὢν ἡμῖν τυγχάνει, ἔπειτα ὅντινα τρόπον δεῖ μετασχεῖν τούτου καὶ τίς αὐτῷ καλῶς ἢ μὴ συμβουλεύει, τῶν νόμων αὐτῶν πρῶτον, ἔπειτα ἀνθρώπων· εἰ δʼ ἔσται τοῦ τοιούτου κενή τις πόλις, οὐδὲν θαυμαστὸν ἄνους οὖσα καὶ ἀναίσθητος εἰ πράξει τὸ προστυχὸν ἑκάστοτε ἐν ἑκάσταις τῶν πράξεων.
962c. Clin. Very true.
962c. ΚΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
Ath. In which, then, of the parts or institutions of our State have we now got anything so framed as to prove an adequate safeguard of this kind? Can we answer that question?
ΑΘ. νῦν οὖν ἡμῖν ἐν τίνι ποτὲ τῶν τῆς πόλεως μερῶν ἢ ἐπιτηδευμάτων ἔστιν ἱκανὸν κατεσκευασμένον ὁτιοῦν τοιοῦτον φυλακτήριον; ἔχομεν φράζειν;
Clin. No, Stranger; at least, not clearly. But if I must make a guess, it seems to me that this discourse of yours is leading up to that synod which has to meet at night, as you said just now.
ΚΛ. οὐ δῆτα, ὦ ξένε, σαφῶς γε· εἰ δʼ οὖν τοπάζειν δεῖ, δοκεῖ μοι τείνειν ὁ λόγος οὗτος εἰς τὸν σύλλογον ὃν εἶπες νυνδὴ νύκτωρ δεῖν συνιέναι.
962d. Ath. An excellent reply, Clinias! And, as our present discourse shows, this synod must possess every virtue; and the prime virtue is not to keep shifting its aim among a number of objects, but to concentrate its gaze always on one particular mark, and at that one mark to shoot, as it were, all its arrows continually.
962d. ΑΘ. κάλλισθʼ ὑπέλαβες, ὦ Κλεινία, καὶ δεῖ δὴ τοῦτον, ὡς ὁ νῦν παρεστηκὼς ἡμῖν λόγος μηνύει, πᾶσαν ἀρετὴν ἔχειν· ἧς ἄρχει τὸ μὴ πλανᾶσθαι πρὸς πολλὰ στοχαζόμενον, ἀλλʼ εἰς ἓν βλέποντα πρὸς τοῦτο ἀεὶ τὰ πάντα οἷον βέλη ἀφιέναι.
Clin. Most certainly.
ΚΛ. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
Ath. So now we shall understand that it is by no means surprising if the legal customs in States keep shifting, seeing that different parts of the codes in each State look in different directions. And, in general, it is not surprising that, with some statesmen, the aim of justice is to enable a certain class of people to rule in the State (whether they be really superior, or inferior), while with others the aim is how to acquire wealth (whether or not they be somebody’s slaves); and others again direct their efforts to winning a life of freedom.
ΑΘ. νῦν δὴ μαθησόμεθα ὅτι θαυμαστὸν οὐδὲν πλανᾶσθαι τὰ τῶν πόλεων νόμιμα, ὅτι πρὸς ἄλλο ἄλλη βλέπει τῶν νομοθεσιῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει ἑκάστῃ. καὶ τὰ μὲν πολλὰ οὐδὲν θαυμαστὸν τὸ τοῖς μὲν τὸν ὅρον εἶναι τῶν δικαίων ὅπως ἄρξουσί τινες ἐν τῇ πόλει, εἴτʼ οὖν βελτίους εἴτε χείρους τυγχάνουσιν ὄντες, τοῖς δʼ, ὅπως πλουτήσουσιν, εἴτʼ οὖν δοῦλοί τινων ὄντες εἴτε καὶ μή, τῶν δʼ ἡ προθυμία πρὸς τὸν ἐλεύθερον δὴ βίον ὡρμημένη·
962e. Still others make two objects at once the joint aim of their legislation,—namely, the gaining of freedom for themselves, and mastery over other States; while those who are the wisest of all, in their own conceit, aim not at one only, but at the sum total of these and the like objects, since they are unable to specify any one object of preeminent value towards which they would desire all else to be directed.
962e. οἱ δὲ καὶ σύνδυο νομοθετοῦνται, πρὸς ἄμφω βλέποντες, ἐλεύθεροί τε ὅπως ἄλλων τε πόλεων ἔσονται δεσπόται, οἱ δὲ σοφώτατοι, ὡς οἴονται, πρὸς ταῦτά τε καὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα σύμπαντα, εἰς ἓν δὲ οὐδὲν διαφερόντως τετιμημένον ἔχοντες φράζειν εἰς ὃ τἆλλʼ αὐτοῖς δεῖ βλέπειν.
963a. Clin. Then, Stranger, was not the view we stated long ago the right one? We said that all our laws must always aim at one single object, which, as we agreed, is quite rightly named “virtue.”
963a. ΚΛ. οὐκοῦν τό γʼ ἡμέτερον, ὦ ξένε, ὀρθῶς ἂν εἴη πάλαι τιθέμενον; πρὸς γὰρ ἓν ἔφαμεν δεῖν ἀεὶ πάνθʼ ἡμῖν τὰ τῶν νόμων βλέποντʼ εἶναι, τοῦτο δʼ ἀρετήν που συνεχωροῦμεν πάνυ ὀρθῶς λέγεσθαι.
Clin. And we stated that virtue consists of four things.
ΚΛ. τὴν δέ γε ἀρετὴν τέτταρα ἔθεμέν που.
Ath. Certainly.
ΑΘ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Clin. And that the chief of all the four is reason, at which the other three, as well as everything else, should aim.
ΚΛ. νοῦν δέ γε πάντων τούτων ἡγεμόνα, πρὸς ὃν δὴ τά τε ἄλλα πάντα καὶ τούτων τὰ τρία δεῖ βλέπειν.
Ath. You follow us admirably, Clinias; and now follow us in what comes next. In the case of the pilot, the doctor, and the general, reason is directed, as we said, towards the one object of aim which is proper in each case; and now we are at the point of examining reason in the case of a statesman, and, addressing it as a man, we shall question it thus:—“O admirable sir, what is your aim?
ΑΘ. κάλλιστʼ ἐπακολουθεῖς, ὦ Κλεινία. καὶ τὰ λοιπὰ δὴ συνακολούθει. νοῦν γὰρ δὴ κυβερνητικὸν μὲν καὶ ἰατρικὸν καὶ στρατηγικὸν εἴπομεν εἰς τὸ ἓν ἐκεῖνο οἷ δεῖ βλέπειν, τὸν δὲ πολιτικὸν ἐλέγχοντες ἐνταῦθʼ ἐσμὲν νῦν, καὶ καθάπερ ἄνθρωπον ἐπανερωτῶντες εἴποιμεν ἄν·
963b. Medical reason is able to state clearly the one single object at which it aims; so will you be unable to state your one object—you who are superior, as perhaps you will say, to all the wise?” Can you two, Megillus and Clinias, define that object on his behalf, and tell me what you say it is, just as I, on behalf of many others, defined their objects for you?
963b. ὦ θαυμάσιε, σὺ δὲ δὴ ποῖ σκοπεῖς; τί ποτʼ ἐκεῖνό ἐστι τὸ ἕν, ὃ δὴ σαφῶς ὁ μὲν ἰατρικὸς νοῦς ἔχει φράζειν, σὺ δʼ ὢν δὴ διαφέρων, ὡς φαίης ἄν, πάντων τῶν ἐμφρόνων, οὐχ ἕξεις εἰπεῖν; ἢ σύ γε, Μέγιλλε καὶ Κλεινία, ἔχετον διαρθροῦντες ὑπὲρ αὐτοῦ φράζειν πρὸς ἐμὲ τί ποτέ φατε εἶναι τοῦτο, καθάπερ ὑπὲρ ἄλλων ἐγὼ πρὸς ὑμᾶς συχνῶν διωριζόμην;
963c. Clin. We are totally unable to do so.
963c. ΚΛ. οὐδαμῶς, ὦ ξένε.
Ath. Well then, can you declare that we need zeal in discerning both the object itself as a whole and the forms it assumes?
ΑΘ. τί δʼ ὅτι δεῖ προθυμεῖσθαί τε συνιδεῖν αὐτὸ καὶ ἐν οἷς;
Clin. Illustrate what you mean by “the forms” you speak of.
ΚΛ. οἷον ἐν τίσι λέγεις;
Ath. For example, when we said that there are four forms of virtue, obviously, since there are four, we must assert that each is a separate one.
ΑΘ. οἷον ὅτε τέτταρα ἐφήσαμεν ἀρετῆς εἴδη γεγονέναι, δῆλον ὡς ἓν ἕκαστον ἀνάγκη φάναι, τεττάρων γε ὄντων.
Clin. Certainly.
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
Ath. And yet we call them all by one name: we assert that courage is virtue, and wisdom virtue, and the other two likewise, as though they were really not a plurality, but solely this one thing—virtue.
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν ἕν γε ἅπαντα ταῦτα προσαγορεύομεν. ἀνδρείαν γάρ φαμεν ἀρετὴν εἶναι, καὶ τὴν φρόνησιν ἀρετήν, καὶ τὰ δύο τἆλλα, ὡς ὄντως ὄντα οὐ πολλὰ ἀλλʼ ἓν τοῦτο μόνον, ἀρετήν.
963d. Clin. Very true.
963d. ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Ath. Now it is not hard to explain wherein these two (and the rest) differ from one another, and how they have got two names; but to explain why we have given the one name “virtue” to both of them (and to the rest) is no longer an easy matter.
ΑΘ. ἧι μὲν τοίνυν διαφέρετον αὐτοῖν τούτω τὼ δύο καὶ δύʼ ὀνόματα ἐλαβέτην καὶ τἆλλα, οὐδὲν χαλεπὸν εἰπεῖν· ᾗ δὲ ἓν ἀμφοῖν ἐπωνομάσαμεν, ἀρετήν, καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις, οὐκ εὐπετὲς ἔτι.
Clin. How do you mean?
ΚΛ. πῶς λέγεις;
Ath. It is not hard to make clear my meaning. Let one of us adopt the role of questioner, the other of answerer.
ΑΘ. οὐδὲν χαλεπὸν ὃ λέγω δηλῶσαι. διανειμώμεθα γὰρ ἀλλήλοις τὴν ἐρώτησιν καὶ ἀπόκρισιν.
Clin. In what way?
ΚΛ. πῶς αὖ φράζεις;
963e. Ath. Do you ask me this question—why, when calling both the two by the single name of “virtue,” did we again speak of them as two—courage and wisdom? Then I shall tell you the reason,—which is, that the one of them has to do with fear, namely courage, in which beasts also share, and the characters of very young children; for a courageous soul comes into existence naturally and without reasoning, but without reasoning there never yet came into existence, and there does not nor ever will exist, a soul that is wise and rational, it being a distinct kind.
963e. ΑΘ. ἐρώτησόν με τί ποτε ἓν προσαγορεύοντες ἀρετὴν ἀμφότερα, δύο πάλιν αὐτὰ προσείπομεν, τὸ μὲν ἀνδρείαν, τὸ δὲ φρόνησιν. ἐρῶ γάρ σοι τὴν αἰτίαν, ὅτι τὸ μέν ἐστιν περὶ φόβον, οὗ καὶ τὰ θηρία μετέχει, τῆς ἀνδρείας, καὶ τά γε τῶν παίδων ἤθη τῶν πάνυ νέων· ἄνευ γὰρ λόγου καὶ φύσει γίγνεται ἀνδρεία ψυχή, ἄνευ δὲ αὖ λόγου ψυχὴ φρόνιμός τε καὶ νοῦν ἔχουσα οὔτʼ ἐγένετο πώποτε οὔτʼ ἔστιν οὐδʼ αὖθίς ποτε γενήσεται, ὡς ὄντος ἑτέρου.
Clin. That is true.
ΚΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
964a. Ath. Wherein they differ and are two you have now learnt from my reply. So do you, in turn, inform me how it is that they are one and identical. Imagine you are also going to tell me how it is that, though four, they are yet one; and then, after you have shown me how they are one, do you again ask me how they are four. And after that, let us enquire regarding the person who has full knowledge of any objects which possess both a name and a definition, whether he ought to know the name only, and not know the definition, or whether it is not a shameful thing for a man worth anything to be ignorant of all these points in regard to matters of surpassing beauty and importance.
964a. ΑΘ. ἧι μὲν τοίνυν ἐστὸν διαφόρω καὶ δύο, σὺ παρʼ ἐμοῦ ἀπείληφας τῷ λόγῳ· ᾗ δὲ ἓν καὶ ταὐτόν, σὺ πάλιν ἀπόδος ἐμοί. διανοοῦ δὲ ὡς ἐρῶν καὶ ὅπῃ τέτταρα ὄντα ἕν ἐστι, καὶ ἐμὲ δὲ ἀξίου, σοῦ δείξαντος ὡς ἕν, πάλιν ὅπῃ τέτταρα. καὶ δὴ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο σκοπῶμεν τὸν εἰδότα ἱκανῶς περὶ ὡντινωνοῦν οἷς ἔστιν μὲν ὄνομα, ἔστιν δὲ αὖ καὶ λόγος, πότερον μόνον ἐπίστασθαι τοὔνομα χρεών, τὸν δὲ λόγον ἀγνοεῖν, ἢ τόν γε ὄντα τι καὶ περὶ τῶν διαφερόντων μεγέθει τε καὶ κάλλει πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα ἀγνοεῖν αἰσχρόν.
964b. Clin. It would certainly seem to be so.
964b. ΚΛ. ἔοικεν γοῦν.
Ath. For the lawgiver and the Law-warden, and for him who thinks he surpasses all men in virtue and who has won prizes for just such qualities, is there anything more important than these very qualities with which we are now dealing—courage, temperance, justice, and wisdom?
ΑΘ. μεῖζον δή τι νομοθέτῃ τε καὶ νομοφύλακι, καὶ ὃς ἀρετῇ πάντων διαφέρειν οἴεται καὶ νικητήρια τούτων αὐτῶν εἴληφεν, ἢ ταῦτα αὐτὰ περὶ ὧν νῦν λέγομεν, ἀνδρεία, σωφροσύνη, δικαιοσύνη, φρόνησις;
Clin. Impossible.
ΚΛ. καὶ πῶς;
Ath. In regard to these matters, is it not right that the interpreters, the teachers, the lawgivers, as the wardens of the rest, in dealing with him that requires knowledge and information, or with him that requires punishment and reproof for his sin, should excel all others in the art of instructing him in the quality of vice and virtue and exhibiting it fully?
ΑΘ. τούτων δὴ πέρι τοὺς ἐξηγητάς, τοὺς διδασκάλους, τοὺς νομοθέτας, τῶν ἄλλων τοὺς φύλακας, τῷ δεομένῳ γνῶναί τε καὶ εἰδέναι, ἢ τῷ δεομένῳ κολάζεσθαί τε καὶ ἐπιπλῆξαι ἁμαρτάνοντι, πότερον οὐ διδάσκοντα ἣν δύναμιν ἔχει κακία τε καὶ ἀρετὴ καὶ πάντως δηλοῦντα, διαφέρειν τῶν ἄλλων, ἀλλʼ ἢ ποιητήν τινα ἐλθόντα εἰς τὴν πόλιν ἢ παιδευτὴν νέων φάσκοντʼ εἶναι βελτίω φαίνεσθαι τοῦ πᾶσαν ἀρετὴν νενικηκότος;
964c. Or is some poet who comes into the State, or one who calls himself a trainer of youth, to be accounted evidently superior to him that has won prizes for all the virtues? In a State like that, where there are no wardens who are competent both in word and deed, and possessed of a competent knowledge of virtue,—is it surprising, I ask, if such a State, all unwarded as it is, suffers the same fate as do many of the States which exist today?
964c. εἶτα ἐν τῇ τοιαύτῃ πόλει ὅπου μὴ λόγῳ ἔργῳ τε ἱκανοὶ φύλακες εἶεν, ἀρετῆς πέρι γιγνώσκοντες ἱκανῶς, θαυμαστόν τι ταύτην τὴν πόλιν ἀφύλακτον οὖσαν πάσχειν ἃ πολλαὶ πάσχουσι τῶν νῦν πόλεων;
964d. Clin. Not at all, I should say.
964d. ΚΛ. οὐδέν γε, ὡς εἰκός.
Ath. Well then, must we do what we now propose, or what? Must we contrive how our wardens shall have a more accurate grasp of virtue, both in word and deed, than the majority of men? For otherwise, how shall our State resemble a wise man’s head and senses, on the ground that it possesses within itself a similar kind of wardenship?
ΑΘ. τί οὖν; ὃ λέγομεν νῦν ποιητέον ἡμῖν, ἢ πῶς; τοὺς φύλακας ἀκριβεστέρους τῶν πολλῶν περὶ ἀρετῆς ἔργῳ καὶ λόγῳ κατασκευαστέον; ἢ τίνα τρόπον τῇ τῶν ἐμφρόνων κεφαλῇ τε καὶ αἰσθήσεσιν ὁμοιωθήσεται ἡμῖν ἡ πόλις, ὡς τοιαύτην τινὰ φυλακὴν κεκτημένη ἐν αὑτῇ;
Clin. What is this resemblance we speak of and wherein does it consist?
ΚΛ. πῶς οὖν δὴ καὶ τίνα τρόπον, ὦ ξένε, ἀπεικάζοντες αὐτὸ τοιούτῳ τινὶ λέγομεν;
964e. Ath. Evidently we are comparing the State itself to the skull; and, of the wardens, the younger ones, who are selected as the most intelligent and nimble in every part of their souls, are set, as it were, like the eyes, in the top of the head, and survey the State all round;
964e. ΑΘ. δῆλον ὡς αὐτῆς μὲν τῆς πόλεως οὔσης τοῦ κύτους, τῶν δὲ φυλάκων τοὺς μὲν νέους οἷον ἐν ἄκρᾳ κορυφῇ, ἀπειλεγμένους τοὺς εὐφυεστάτους, ὀξύτητας ἐν πάσῃ τῇ ψυχῇ ἔχοντας, περὶ ὅλην κύκλῳ τὴν πόλιν ὁρᾶν, ΑΘ.
965. Ath. and as they watch, they pass on their perceptions to the organs of memory,—that is, they report to the elder wardens all that goes on in the State,— while the old men, who are likened to the reason because of their eminent wisdom in many matters of importance, act as counsellors, and make use of the young men as ministers and colleagues also in their counsels, so that both these classes by their co-operation really effect the salvation of the whole State.
965. φρουροῦντας δὲ παραδιδόναι μὲν τὰς αἰσθήσεις ταῖς μνήμαις, τοῖς πρεσβυτέροις δὲ ἐξαγγέλους γίγνεσθαι πάντων τῶν κατὰ πόλιν, τοὺς δὲ νῷ ἀπῃκασμένους τῷ πολλὰ καὶ ἄξια λόγου διαφερόντως φρονεῖν, τοὺς γέροντας, βουλεύεσθαι, καὶ ὑπηρέταις χρωμένους μετὰ συμβουλίας τοῖς νέοις, οὕτω δὴ κοινῇ σῴζειν ἀμφοτέρους ὄντως τὴν πόλιν ὅλην.
965a. Is this the way, or ought we to contrive some other? Should the State, do you think, have all its members equal instead of having some more highly trained and educated?Clin. Nay, my good sir, that were impossible.Ath. We must proceed, then, to expound a type of education that is higher than the one previously described.
965a. πότερον οὕτω λέγομεν ἤ πως ἄλλως δεῖν κατασκευάζεσθαι; μῶν ὁμοίους πάντας κεκτημένους καὶ μὴ διηκριβωμένους ἔστιν οὓς τραφέντας τε καὶ πεπαιδευμένους;ΚΛ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ θαυμάσιε, ἀδύνατον.
965b. Clin. I suppose so.Ath. Will the type which we hinted at just now prove to be that which we require?Clin. Certainly.Ath. Did we not say that he who is a first-class craftsman or warden, in any department, must not only be able to pay regard to the many, but must be able also to press towards the One so as to discern it and, on discerning it, to survey and organize all the rest with a single eye to it?Clin. Quite right.
965b. ΑΘ. ἰτέον ἄρα ἐπί τινα ἀκριβεστέραν παιδείαν τῆς ἔμπροσθεν.ΚΛ. ἴσως.ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν ἧς δὴ νῦν σχεδὸν ἐφηψάμεθα, τυγχάνοι ἂν οὖσα ἧς χρείαν ἔχομεν αὕτη;ΚΛ. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ἐλέγομεν τόν γε πρὸς ἕκαστα ἄκρον δημιουργόν τε καὶ φύλακα μὴ μόνον δεῖν πρὸς τὰ πολλὰ βλέπειν δυνατὸν εἶναι, πρὸς δὲ τὸ ἓν ἐπείγεσθαι γνῶναί τε, καὶ γνόντα πρὸς ἐκεῖνο συντάξασθαι πάντα συνορῶντα;ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς.
965c. Ath. Can any man get an accurate vision and view of any object better than by being able to look from the many and dissimilar to the one unifying form?
965c. ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν ἀκριβεστέρα σκέψις θέα τε ἂν περὶ ὁτουοῦν ὁτῳοῦν γίγνοιτο ἢ τὸ πρὸς μίαν ἰδέαν ἐκ τῶν πολλῶν καὶ ἀνομοίων δυνατὸν εἶναι βλέπειν;
Clin. Probably not.
ΚΛ. ἴσως.
Ath. It is certain, my friend, rather than probable, that no man can possibly have a clearer method than this.
ΑΘ. οὐκ ἴσως, ἀλλʼ ὄντως, ὦ δαιμόνιε, ταύτης οὐκ ἔστιν σαφεστέρα μέθοδος ἀνθρώπων οὐδενί.
Clin. I believe you, Stranger, and I assent; so let us employ this method in our subsequent discourse.
ΚΛ. σοὶ πιστεύων, ὦ ξένε, συγχωρῶ δή, καὶ ταύτῃ πορευώμεθα λέγοντες.
Ath. Naturally we must compel the wardens also of our divine polity to observe accurately, in the first place, what that identical element is which pervades all the four virtues, and which,—since it exists as a unity in courage, temperance, justice and wisdom,— may justly be called, as we assert, by the single name of “virtue.”
ΑΘ. ἀναγκαστέον ἄρʼ, ὡς ἔοικεν, καὶ τοὺς τῆς θείας πολιτείας ἡμῖν φύλακας ἀκριβῶς ἰδεῖν πρῶτον τί ποτε διὰ πάντων τῶν τεττάρων ταὐτὸν τυγχάνει, ὃ δή φαμεν ἔν τε ἀνδρείᾳ καὶ σωφροσύνῃ καὶ δικαιοσύνῃ καὶ ἐν φρονήσει ἓν ὄν, ἀρετὴν ἑνὶ δικαίως ἂν ὀνόματι προσαγορεύεσθαι.
965d. This element, my friends, we must now (if we please) hold very tight, and not let go until we have adequately explained the essential nature of the object to be aimed at—whether, that is, it exists by nature as a unity, or as a whole, or as both, or in some other way. Else, if this eludes us, can we possibly suppose that we shall adequately grasp the nature of virtue, when we are unable to state whether it is many or four or one?
965d. τοῦτο, ὦ φίλοι, εἰ μὲν βουλόμεθα, τὰ νῦν οἷόνπερ σφόδρα πιέσαντες μὴ ἀνῶμεν, πρὶν ἂν ἱκανῶς εἴπωμεν τί ποτʼ ἔστιν εἰς ὃ βλεπτέον, εἴτε ὡς ἓν εἴτε ὡς ὅλον εἴτε ἀμφότερα εἴτε ὅπως ποτὲ πέφυκεν· ἢ τούτου διαφυγόντος ἡμᾶς, οἰόμεθά ποτε ἡμῖν ἱκανῶς ἕξειν τὰ πρὸς ἀρετήν, περὶ ἧς οὔτʼ εἰ πολλά ἐστʼ οὔτʼ εἰ τέτταρα οὔθʼ ὡς ἓν δυνατοὶ φράζειν ἐσόμεθα;
965e. Accordingly, if we follow our own counsel, we shall contrive somehow, by hook or by crook, that this knowledge shall exist in our State. Should we decide, however, to pass it over entirely—pass it over we must.
965e. οὔκουν ἐάν γε ἡμῖν συμβούλοις πειθώμεθα, ἄλλως δέ πως μηχανησόμεθα ἐν τῇ πόλει ἐγγεγονέναι τοῦθʼ ἡμῖν· εἰ δʼ ἄρα τὸ παράπαν δοκεῖ ἐᾶν, ὁρᾶν δὴ χρεών.
Clin. Nay, Stranger, in the name of the Stranger’s God, we must by no means pass over a matter such as this, since what you say seems to us most true. But how is this to be contrived?
ΚΛ. ἥκιστα, νὴ τὸν ξένιον, ὦ ξένε, θεόν, ἐατέον που τὸ τοιοῦτον, ἐπεὶ δοκεῖς ἡμῖν ὀρθότατα λέγειν. ἀλλὰ δὴ πῶς τις τοῦτʼ ἂν μηχανῷτο;
966a. Ath. It is too early to explain how we are to contrive it: let us first make sure that we agree among ourselves as to whether or not we ought to do so.
966a. ΑΘ. μήπω τὸ πῶς ἂν μηχανησαίμεθα λέγωμεν· εἰ δεῖ δὲ ἢ μή, πρῶτον βεβαιωσώμεθα τῇ συνομολογίᾳ πρὸς ἡμᾶς αὐτούς.
Clin. Well, surely we ought, if we can.
ΚΛ. ἀλλὰ μὴν δεῖ γε, εἴπερ δυνατόν.
Ath. Very well then; do we hold the same view about the fair and the good? Ought our wardens to know only that each of these is a plurality, or ought they also to know how and wherein they are each a unity?
ΑΘ. τί δὲ δή; περὶ καλοῦ τε καὶ ἀγαθοῦ ταὐτὸν τοῦτο διανοούμεθα; ὡς πόλλʼ ἔστιν μόνον ἕκαστον τούτων τοὺς φύλακας ἡμῖν γνωστέον, ἢ καὶ ὅπως ἕν τε καὶ ὅπῃ;
Clin. It is fairly obvious that they must necessarily also discern how these are a unity.
ΚΛ. σχεδὸν ἔοικʼ ἐξ ἀνάγκης δεῖν καὶ ὅπως ἓν διανοεῖσθαι.
966b. Ath. Well then, ought they to discern it, but be unable to give a verbal demonstration of it?
966b. ΑΘ. τί δʼ, ἐννοεῖν μέν, τὴν δὲ ἔνδειξιν τῷ λόγῳ ἀδυνατεῖν ἐνδείκνυσθαι;
Clin. Impossible! The state of mind you describe is that of a slave.
ΚΛ. καὶ πῶς; ἀνδραπόδου γάρ τινα σὺ λέγεις ἕξιν.
Ath. Well then, do we hold the same view about all forms of goodness, that those who are to be real wardens of the laws must really know the true nature of them, and be capable both of expounding it in word and conforming to it in deed, passing judgment on fair actions and foul according to their real character?
ΑΘ. τί δέ; περὶ πάντων τῶν σπουδαίων ἆρʼ ἡμῖν αὑτὸς λόγος, ὅτι δεῖ τοὺς ὄντως φύλακας ἐσομένους τῶν νόμων ὄντως εἰδέναι τὰ περὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν αὐτῶν, καὶ λόγῳ τε ἱκανοὺς ἑρμηνεύειν εἶναι καὶ τοῖς ἔργοις συνακολουθεῖν, κρίνοντας τά τε καλῶς γιγνόμενα καὶ τὰ μὴ κατὰ φύσιν;
Clin. Certainly.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
966c. Ath. And is not one of the fairest things the doctrine about the gods, which we expounded earnestly, —to know both that they exist, and what power they manifestly possess, so far as a man is capable of learning these matters; so that while one should pardon the mass of the citizens if they merely follow the letter of the law, one must exclude from office those who are eligible for wardenship, unless they labor to grasp all the proofs there are about the existence of gods? Such exclusion from office consists in refusing ever to choose as a Law-warden, or to number among those approved for excellence, a man who is not divine himself, nor has spent any labor over things divine.
966c. ΑΘ. μῶν οὖν οὐχ ἓν τῶν καλλίστων ἐστὶν τὸ περὶ τοὺς θεούς, ὃ δὴ σπουδῇ διεπερανάμεθα, ὡς εἰσίν τε καὶ ὅσης φαίνονται κύριοι δυνάμεως, εἰδέναι τε εἰς ὅσον δυνατόν ἐστιν ταῦτʼ ἄνθρωπον γιγνώσκειν, καὶ τοῖς μὲν πλείστοις τῶν κατὰ πόλιν συγγιγνώσκειν τῇ φήμῃ μόνον τῶν νόμων συνακολουθοῦσιν, τοῖς δὲ φυλακῆς μεθέξουσιν μηδὲ ἐπιτρέπειν, ὃς ἂν μὴ διαπονήσηται τὸ πᾶσαν πίστιν λαβεῖν τῶν οὐσῶν περὶ θεῶν; τὴν δὲ μὴ ἐπιτροπὴν εἶναι τὸ μηδέποτε τῶν νομοφυλάκων αἱρεῖσθαι τὸν μὴ θεῖον καὶ διαπεπονηκότα πρὸς αὐτά, μηδʼ αὖ τῶν πρὸς ἀρετὴν ἔγκριτον γίγνεσθαι;
966d. Clin. It is certainly just, as you say, that the man who is idle or incapable in respect of this subject should be strictly debarred from the ranks of the noble.
966d. ΚΛ. δίκαιον γοῦν, ὡς λέγεις, τὸν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα ἀργὸν ἢ ἀδύνατον ἀποκρίνεσθαι πόρρω τῶν καλῶν.
Ath. Are we assured, then, that there are two causes, amongst those we previously discussed, which lead to faith in the gods?
ΑΘ. ἆρα οὖν ἴσμεν ὅτι δύʼ ἐστὸν τὼ περὶ θεῶν ἄγοντε εἰς πίστιν, ὅσα διήλθομεν ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν;
Ath. One is our dogma about the soul,—that it is the most ancient and divine of all the things whose motion, when developed into “becoming,” provides an ever-flowing fount of “being”; and the other is our dogma concerning the ordering of the motion of the stars and all the other bodies under the control of reason, which has made a “cosmos” of the All.
ΑΘ. ἓν μὲν ὃ περὶ τὴν ψυχὴν ἐλέγομεν, ὡς πρεσβύτατόν τε καὶ θειότατόν ἐστιν πάντων ὧν κίνησις γένεσιν παραλαβοῦσα ἀέναον οὐσίαν ἐπόρισεν· ἓν δὲ τὸ περὶ τὴν φοράν, ὡς ἔχει τάξεως, ἄστρων τε καὶ ὅσων ἄλλων ἐγκρατὴς νοῦς ἐστιν τὸ πᾶν διακεκοσμηκώς.
967. Ath. For no man that views these objects in no careless or amateurish way has ever proved so godless as not to be affected by them in a way just the opposite of that which most people expect.
967. ΑΘ. ὁ γὰρ ἰδὼν ταῦτα μὴ φαύλως μηδʼ ἰδιωτικῶς, οὐδεὶς οὕτως ἄθεος ἀνθρώπων ποτὲ πέφυκεν, ὃς οὐ τοὐναντίον ἔπαθεν ἢ τὸ προσδοκώμενον ὑπὸ τῶν πολλῶν.
967a. For they imagine that those who study these objects in astronomy and the other necessary allied arts become atheists through observing, as they suppose, that all things come into being by necessary forces and not by the mental energy of the will aiming at the fulfillment of good.
967a. οἱ μὲν γὰρ διανοοῦνται τοὺς τὰ τοιαῦτα μεταχειρισαμένους ἀστρονομίᾳ τε καὶ ταῖς μετὰ ταύτης ἀναγκαίαις ἄλλαις τέχναις ἀθέους γίγνεσθαι, καθεωρακότας ὡς οἷόν τε γιγνόμενα ἀνάγκαις πράγματʼ ἀλλʼ οὐ διανοίαις βουλήσεως ἀγαθῶν πέρι τελουμένων.
Clin. What in fact is the real state of the case?
ΚΛ. τὸ δὲ δὴ πῶς ἔχον ἂν εἴη;
Ath. The position at present is, as I said, exactly the opposite of what it was when those who considered these objects considered them to be soulless. Yet even then they were objects of admiration, and the conviction which is now actually held was suspected by all who studied them accurately—namely, that if they were soulless, and consequently devoid of reason, they could never have employed with such precision calculations so marvellous; and even in those days there were some who dared to hazard the statement that reason is the orderer of all that is in the heavens.
ΑΘ. πᾶν, ὅπερ εἶπον, τοὐναντίον ἔχει νῦν τε καὶ ὅτε ἄψυχα αὐτὰ οἱ διανοούμενοι διενοοῦντο. θαύματα μὲν οὖν καὶ τότε ὑπεδύετο περὶ αὐτά, καὶ ὑπωπτεύετο τὸ νῦν ὄντως δεδογμένον, ὅσοι τῆς ἀκριβείας αὐτῶν ἥπτοντο, ὅπως μήποτʼ ἂν ἄψυχα ὄντα οὕτως εἰς ἀκρίβειαν θαυμαστοῖς λογισμοῖς ἂν ἐχρῆτο, νοῦν μὴ κεκτημένα·
967b. But the same thinkers, through mistaking the nature of the soul and conceiving her to be posterior, instead of prior, to body, upset again (so to say) the whole universe, and most of all themselves; for as regards the visible objects of sight, all that moves in the heavens appeared to them to be full of stones, earth and many other soulless bodies which dispense the causes of the whole cosmos.
967b. καί τινες ἐτόλμων τοῦτό γε αὐτὸ παρακινδυνεύειν καὶ τότε, λέγοντες ὡς νοῦς εἴη ὁ διακεκοσμηκὼς πάνθʼ ὅσα κατʼ οὐρανόν. οἱ δὲ αὐτοὶ πάλιν ἁμαρτάνοντες ψυχῆς φύσεως ὅτι πρεσβύτερον εἴη σωμάτων, διανοηθέντες δὲ ὡς νεώτερον, ἅπανθʼ ὡς εἰπεῖν ἔπος ἀνέτρεψαν πάλιν, ἑαυτοὺς δὲ πολὺ μᾶλλον·
967c. These were the views which, at that time, caused these thinkers to incur many charges of atheism and much odium, and which also incited the poets to abuse them by likening philosophers to “dogs howling at the moon,” with other such senseless slanders.
967c. τὸ γὰρ δὴ πρὸ τῶν ὀμμάτων, πάντα αὐτοῖς ἐφάνη, τὰ κατʼ οὐρανὸν φερόμενα, μεστὰ εἶναι λίθων καὶ γῆς καὶ πολλῶν ἄλλων ἀψύχων σωμάτων διανεμόντων τὰς αἰτίας παντὸς τοῦ κόσμου. ταῦτʼ ἦν τὰ τότε ἐξειργασμένα πολλὰς ἀθεότητας καὶ δυσχερείας τῶν τοιούτων ἅπτεσθαι, καὶ δὴ καὶ λοιδορήσεις γε ἐπῆλθον ποιηταῖς, τοὺς φιλοσοφοῦντας κυσὶ ματαίαις ἀπεικάζοντας χρωμέναισιν ὑλακαῖς, ἄλλα τε αὖ ἀνόητʼ εἰπεῖν·
967d. But today, as we have said, the position is quite the reverse.
967d. νῦν δέ, ὅπερ εἴρηται, πᾶν τοὐναντίον ἔχει.
Ath. It is impossible for any mortal man to become permanently god-fearing if he does not grasp the two truths now stated,—namely, how that the soul is oldest of all things that partake of generation, and is immortal, and rules over all bodies,—and in addition to this, he must also grasp that reason which, as we have often affirmed, controls what exists among the stars, together with the necessary preliminary sciences; and he must observe also the connection therewith of musical theory, and apply it harmoniously to the institutions and rules of ethics; and he must be able to give a rational explanation of all that admits of rational explanation.
ΑΘ. οὐκ ἔστιν ποτὲ γενέσθαι βεβαίως θεοσεβῆ θνητῶν ἀνθρώπων οὐδένα, ὃς ἂν μὴ τὰ λεγόμενα ταῦτα νῦν δύο λάβῃ, ψυχή τε ὡς ἔστιν πρεσβύτατον ἁπάντων ὅσα γονῆς μετείληφεν, ἀθάνατόν τε, ἄρχει τε δὴ σωμάτων πάντων, ἐπὶ δὲ τούτοισι δή, τὸ νῦν εἰρημένον πολλάκις, τόν τε εἰρημένον ἐν τοῖς ἄστροις νοῦν τῶν ὄντων τά τε πρὸ τούτων ἀναγκαῖα μαθήματα λάβῃ, τά τε κατὰ τὴν μοῦσαν τούτοις τῆς κοινωνίας συνθεασάμενος, χρήσηται πρὸς τὰ τῶν ἠθῶν ἐπιτηδεύματα καὶ νόμιμα συναρμοττόντως, ὅσα τε λόγον ἔχει, τούτων δυνατὸς ᾖ δοῦναι τὸν λόγον·
968. Ath. He that is unable to master these sciences, in addition to the popular virtues, will never make a competent magistrate of the whole State, but only a minister to other magistrates. And now, O Megillus and Clinias, it is time at last to consider whether, in addition to all the previous laws which we have stated, we shall add this also—that the nocturnal synod of magistrates shall be legally established, and shall participate in all the education we have described, to keep ward over the State, and to secure its salvation;
968. ΑΘ. ὁ δὲ μὴ ταῦθʼ οἷός τʼ ὢν πρὸς ταῖς δημοσίαις ἀρεταῖς κεκτῆσθαι σχεδὸν ἄρχων μὲν οὐκ ἄν ποτε γένοιτο ἱκανὸς ὅλης πόλεως, ὑπηρέτης δʼ ἂν ἄλλοις ἄρχουσιν. ὁρᾶν δὴ χρεὼν νῦν, ὦ Κλεινία καὶ Μέγιλλε, ἤδη πρὸς τοῖς εἰρημένοις νόμοις ἅπασιν ὅσους διεληλύθαμεν εἰ καὶ τοῦτον προσοίσομεν, ὡς φυλακὴν ἐσόμενον κατὰ νόμον χάριν σωτηρίας τὸν τῶν ἀρχόντων νυκτερινὸν σύλλογον, παιδείας ὁπόσης διεληλύθαμεν κοινωνὸν γενόμενον·
968b. or what are we to do?
968b. ἢ πῶς ποιῶμεν;
Clin. Of course we shall add this law, my excellent sir, if we can possibly do so, even to a small extent.
ΚΛ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ λῷστε, πῶς οὐ προσοίσομεν, ἄν πῃ καὶ κατὰ βραχὺ δυνηθῶμεν;
Ath. Then, verily, let us all strive to do so. And herein you will find me a most willing helper, owing to my very long experience and study of this subject; and perhaps I shall discover other helpers also besides myself.
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν πρός γε τὸ τοιοῦτον ἁμιλληθῶμεν πάντες. συλλήπτωρ γὰρ τούτου γε ὑμῖν καὶ ἐγὼ γιγνοίμην ἂν προθύμως—πρὸς δʼ ἐμοὶ καὶ ἑτέρους ἴσως εὑρήσω—διὰ τὴν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτʼ ἐμπειρίαν τε καὶ σκέψιν γεγονυῖάν μοι καὶ μάλα συχνήν.
Clin. Well, Stranger, we most certainly must proceed on that path along which God too, it would seem, is conducting us. But what is the right method for us to employ,— that is what we have now got to discover and state.
ΚΛ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ ξένε, παντὸς μὲν μᾶλλον ταύτῃ πορευτέον ᾗπερ καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς σχεδὸν ἄγει· τίς δὲ ὁ τρόπος ἡμῖν γιγνόμενος ὀρθῶς γίγνοιτʼ ἄν, τοῦτο δὴ τὰ νῦν λέγωμέν τε καὶ ἐρευνῶμεν.
968c. Ath. It is not possible at this stage, Megillus and Clinias, to enact laws for such a body, before it has been duly framed; when it is, its members must themselves ordain what authority they should possess; but it is already plain that what is required in order to form such a body, if it is to be rightly formed, is teaching by means of prolonged conferences.
968c. ΑΘ. οὐκέτι νόμους, ὦ Μέγιλλε καὶ Κλεινία, περὶ τῶν τοιούτων δυνατόν ἐστιν νομοθετεῖν, πρὶν ἂν κοσμηθῇ—τότε δὲ κυρίους ὧν αὐτοὺς δεῖ γίγνεσθαι νομοθετεῖν—ἀλλὰ ἤδη τὸ τὰ τοιαῦτα κατασκευάζον διδαχὴ μετὰ συνουσίας πολλῆς γίγνοιτʼ ἄν, εἰ γίγνοιτο ὀρθῶς.
Clin. How so? What now are we to understand by this observation?
ΚΛ. πῶς; τί τοῦτο εἰρῆσθαι φῶμεν αὖ;
Ath. Surely we must first draw up a list of all those who are fitted by age, intellectual capacity, and moral character and habit for the office of warden; but as regards the next point, the subjects they should learn,—these it is neither easy to discover for oneself nor is it easy to find another who has made the discovery and learn from him.
ΑΘ. πρῶτον μὲν δήπου καταλεκτέος ἂν εἴη κατάλογος τῶν ὅσοι ἐπιτήδειοι πρὸς τὴν τῆς φυλακῆς φύσιν ἂν εἶεν ἡλικίαις τε καὶ μαθημάτων δυνάμεσιν καὶ τρόπων ἤθεσιν καὶ ἔθεσιν·
968d. Moreover, with respect to the limits of time, when and for how long they ought to receive instruction in each subject, it were idle to lay down written regulations; for even the learners themselves could not be sure that they were learning at the opportune time until each of them had acquired within his soul some knowledge of the subject in question. Accordingly, although it would be wrong to term all these matters “indescribable,” they should be termed “imprescribable,” seeing that the prescribing of them beforehand does nothing to elucidate the question under discussion.
968d. μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο, ἃ δεῖ μανθάνειν οὔτε εὑρεῖν ῥᾴδιον οὔτε ηὑρηκότος ἄλλου μαθητὴν γενέσθαι. πρὸς τούτοις δὲ χρόνους, οὕς τε καὶ ἐν οἷς δεῖ παραλαμβάνειν ἕκαστα, μάταιον ταῦτʼ ἐν γράμμασιν λέγειν· οὐδὲ γὰρ αὐτοῖς τοῖς μανθάνουσι δῆλα γίγνοιτʼ ἂν ὅτι πρὸς καιρὸν μανθάνεται, πρὶν ἐντὸς τῆς ψυχῆς ἑκάστῳ που μαθήματος ἐπιστήμην γεγονέναι. οὕτω δὴ πάντα τὰ περὶ ταῦτα ἀπόρρητα μὲν λεχθέντα οὐκ ἂν ὀρθῶς λέγοιτο, ἀπρόρρητα δὲ διὰ τὸ μηδὲν προρρηθέντα δηλοῦν τῶν λεγομένων.
Clin. What then must we do, Stranger, under these circumstances?
ΚΛ. τί οὖν δὴ ποιητέον ἐχόντων τούτων οὕτως, ὦ ξένε;
969. Ath. Apparently, my friends, we must “take our chance with the crowd” (as the saying is), and if we are willing to put the whole polity to the hazard and throw (as men say) three sixes or three aces, so it must be done;
969. ΑΘ. τὸ λεγόμενον, ὦ φίλοι, ἐν κοινῷ καὶ μέσῳ ἔοικεν ἡμῖν κεῖσθαι, καὶ εἴπερ κινδυνεύειν περὶ τῆς πολιτείας ἐθέλομεν συμπάσης, ἢ τρὶς ἕξ, φασίν, ἢ τρεῖς κύβους βάλλοντες, ταῦτα ποιητέον, ἐγὼ δʼ ὑμῖν συγκινδυνεύσω τῷ φράζειν τε καὶ ἐξηγεῖσθαι τά γε δεδογμένα ἐμοὶ περὶ τῆς παιδείας τε καὶ τροφῆς τῆς νῦν αὖ κεκινημένης τοῖς λόγοις·
969a. and I will go shares with you in the hazard by declaring and explaining my views concerning education and nurture, the subject now started anew in our discourse; but truly the hazard will be no small one, nor comparable to any others. And you, Clinias, I specially exhort to take good heed to this matter. For as concerns the State of the Magnesians—or whoever else, by the god’s direction, gives your State its name, —if you frame it aright, you will achieve most high renown, or at any rate you will inevitably gain the reputation of being the boldest of all your successors.
969a. τὸ μέντοι κινδύνευμα οὐ σμικρὸν οὐδʼ ἑτέροις τισὶν προσφερὲς ἂν εἴη. σοὶ δὴ τοῦτό γε, ὦ Κλεινία, μέλειν παρακελεύομαι· σὺ γὰρ τὴν Μαγνήτων πόλιν, ἢ ᾧ ἂν θεὸς ἐπώνυμον αὐτὴν ποιήσῃ, κλέος ἀρῇ μέγιστον κατασκευάσας αὐτὴν ὀρθῶς, ἢ τό γε ἀνδρειότατος εἶναι δοκεῖν τῶν ὕστερον ἐπιγιγνομένων οὐκ ἐκφεύξῃ ποτέ.
969b. If so be that this divine synod actually comes into existence, my dear colleagues, we must hand over to it the State; and practically all our present lawgivers agree to this without dispute. Thus we shall have as an accomplished fact and waking reality that result which we treated but a short while ago in our discourse as a mere dream, when we constructed a kind of picture of the union of the reason and the head, —if, that is to say, we have the members carefully selected and suitably trained, and after their training quartered in the acropolis of the country, and thus finally made into wardens, the like of whom we have never before seen in our lives for excellence in safeguarding.
969b. ἐάν γε μὴν οὗτος ἡμῖν ὁ θεῖος γένηται σύλλογος, ὦ φίλοι ἑταῖροι, παραδοτέον τούτῳ τὴν πόλιν, ἀμφισβήτησίς τε οὐκ ἔστʼ οὐδεμία οὐδενὶ τῶν νῦν παρὰ ταῦθʼ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν νομοθετῶν, ὄντως δὲ ἔσται σχεδὸν ὕπαρ ἀποτετελεσμένον οὗ σμικρῷ πρόσθεν ὀνείρατος ὣς τῷ λόγῳ ἐφηψάμεθα, κεφαλῆς νοῦ τε κοινωνίας εἰκόνα τινά πως συμμείξαντες, ἐὰν ἄρα ἡμῖν οἵ τε ἄνδρες ἀκριβῶς ἐκλεχθῶσι, παιδευθῶσί τε προσηκόντως, παιδευθέντες τε ἐν ἀκροπόλει τῆς χώρας κατοικήσαντες, φύλακες ἀποτελεσθῶσιν οἵους ἡμεῖς οὐκ εἴδομεν ἐν τῷ πρόσθεν βίῳ πρὸς ἀρετὴν σωτηρίας γενομένους.
969c. Meg. My dear Clinias, from all that has now been said it follows that either we must forgo the idea of settling the State, or else we must detain this Stranger here, and by prayers and every possible means secure his cooperation in the task of settling the State.Clin. That is most true, Megillus; I will do as you say, and do you yourself assist me.
969c. ΜΕ. ὦ φίλε Κλεινία, ἐκ τῶν νῦν ἡμῖν εἰρημένων ἁπάντων ἢ τὴν πόλιν ἐατέον τῆς κατοικίσεως ἢ τὸν ξένον τόνδε οὐκ ἀφετέον, ἀλλὰ δεήσεσιν καὶ μηχαναῖς πάσαις κοινωνὸν ποιητέον ἐπὶ τὴν τῆς πόλεως κατοίκισιν.
969d. Meg. Assist you I will.
969d. ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις, ὦ Μέγιλλε, καὶ ἐγὼ ποιήσω ταῦθʼ οὕτως καὶ ⟨σὺ⟩ συλλάμβανε.ΜΕ. συλλήψομαι.