--- title: "Statesman · Πολιτικός" author: "Plato" translator: "Harold North Fowler" languages: [grc, en] shelf: "Philosophy" section: 3 of 5 url: https://scriptura.si/works/plato-statesman/3/ cite: "Plato, tr. Harold North Fowler, Statesman · Πολιτικός, section 3. Scriptura (scriptura.si), https://scriptura.si/works/plato-statesman/3/" --- # Statesman · Πολιτικός *Plato, tr. Harold North Fowler* The Stranger looks for the true art of ruling: the royal weaver of the city. > Greek: ed. John Burnet, from the Perseus Digital Library (canonical-greekLit, tlg0059.tlg008, CC BY-SA 4.0). > English: Harold North Fowler, from the Perseus Digital Library (tlg0059.tlg008.perseus-eng2). Notes are not included. > Rows follow the references the two texts share (line numbers), cut where both reach the end of a sentence. ## 3. 376–550 Source: https://scriptura.si/works/plato-statesman/3/ · cite a paragraph as https://scriptura.si/works/plato-statesman/3/#p-N [¶0] Y. Soc. Agreed. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τί γὰρ οὔ; [¶1] Str. Then just as we divided each subject before by cutting off parts from parts, why not now apply the same process to the art of weaving and, by going through all the steps as briefly as we possibly can, arrive quickly at that which serves our present purpose? > Greek: ΞΕ. τί δῆτα οὐ, καθάπερ ἐν τοῖς ἔμπροσθε τέμνοντες μέρη μερῶν ἕκαστον διῃρούμεθα, καὶ νῦν περὶ ὑφαντικὴν ταὐτὸν τοῦτʼ ἐδράσαμεν, καὶ κατὰ δύναμιν ὅτι μάλιστα διὰ βραχέων ταχὺ πάντʼ ἐπελθόντες πάλιν ἤλθομεν ἐπὶ τὸ νῦν χρήσιμον; [¶2] Y. Soc. What do you mean? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς λέγεις; [¶3] Str. I will answer you by actually going through the process. > Greek: ΞΕ. αὐτὴν τὴν διέξοδον ἀπόκρισίν σοι ποιήσομαι. [¶4] Y. Soc. Excellent Str. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. κάλλιστʼ εἶπες. [¶5] Well, then, all things which we make or acquire are for the sake of doing something or else they are for defence against suffering; and of the defensive class some are spells and antidotes, both divine and human, and some are material defences; and of the material defences some are equipment for war and some are protections; and of protections some are screens and some are defences against heat and cold; and such defences are either shelters or coverings; and coverings are either rugs to spread under us or wrappings to wrap round us; and wrappings are either all of one piece or composed of several pieces; and of the composite garments some are stitched and others put together without stitching; and of the unstitched some are made of the fibres of plants and some are of hair; and of those made with hair some are stuck together with liquids and cement and others are fastened without any such extraneous matter. Now to these protective coverings made of materials fastened without extraneous matter we give the name of clothes; and just as we called the art statecraft which was concerned with the state, so we shall call the art concerned with clothes, from the nature of its activity, clothes-making, shall we not? And may we say further that weaving, in so far as the greatest part of it is, as we saw, concerned with the making of clothes, differs in name only from this art of clothes-making, just as in the other case the royal art differed from statecraft? > Greek: ΞΕ. ἔστι τοίνυν πάντα ἡμῖν ὁπόσα δημιουργοῦμεν καὶ κτώμεθα, τὰ μὲν ἕνεκα τοῦ ποιεῖν τι, τὰ δὲ τοῦ μὴ πάσχειν ἀμυντήρια· καὶ τῶν ἀμυντηρίων τὰ μὲν ἀλεξιφάρμακα καὶ θεῖα καὶ ἀνθρώπινα, τὰ δὲ προβλήματα· τῶν δὲ προβλημάτων τὰ μὲν πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον ὁπλίσματα, τὰ δὲ φράγματα· καὶ τῶν φραγμάτων τὰ μὲν παραπετάσματα, τὰ δὲ πρὸς χειμῶνας καὶ καύματα ἀλεξητήρια· τῶν δὲ ἀλεξητηρίων τὰ μὲν στεγάσματα, τὰ δὲ σκεπάσματα· καὶ τῶν σκεπασμάτων ὑποπετάσματα μὲν ἄλλα, περικαλύμματα δὲ ἕτερα· περικαλυμμάτων δὲ τὰ μὲν ὁλόσχιστα, σύνθετα δὲ ἕτερα· τῶν δὲ συνθέτων τὰ μὲν τρητά, τὰ δὲ ἄνευ τρήσεως συνδετά· καὶ τῶν ἀτρήτων τὰ μὲν νεύρινα φυτῶν ἐκ γῆς, τὰ δὲ τρίχινα· τῶν δὲ τριχίνων τὰ μὲν ὕδασι καὶ γῇ κολλητά, τὰ δὲ αὐτὰ αὑτοῖς συνδετά. τούτοισι δὴ τοῖς ἐκ τῶν ἑαυτοῖς συνδουμένων ἐργασθεῖσιν ἀμυντηρίοις καὶ σκεπάσμασι τὸ μὲν ὄνομα ἱμάτια ἐκαλέσαμεν· τὴν δὲ τῶν ἱματίων μάλιστα ἐπιμελουμένην τέχνην, ὥσπερ τότε τὴν τῆς πόλεως πολιτικὴν εἴπομεν, οὕτω καὶ νῦν ταύτην προσείπωμεν ἀπʼ αὐτοῦ τοῦ πράγματος ἱματιουργικήν; φῶμεν δὲ καὶ ὑφαντικήν, ὅσον ἐπὶ τῇ τῶν ἱματίων ἐργασίᾳ μέγιστον ἦν μόριον, μηδὲν διαφέρειν πλὴν ὀνόματι ταύτης τῆς ἱματιουργικῆς, καθάπερ κἀκεῖ τότε τὴν βασιλικὴν τῆς πολιτικῆς; [¶6] Y. Soc. That is perfectly correct. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ὀρθότατά γε. [¶7] Str. Let us next reflect that a person might think that this description of the art of weaving was satisfactory, because he cannot understand that it has not yet been distinguished from the closely co-operative arts, though it has been separated from many other kindred arts. > Greek: ΞΕ. τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο δὴ συλλογισώμεθα ὅτι τὴν ἱματίων ὑφαντικὴν οὕτω ῥηθεῖσάν τις τάχʼ ἂν ἱκανῶς εἰρῆσθαι δόξειεν, μὴ δυνάμενος συννοεῖν ὅτι τῶν μὲν ἐγγὺς συνεργῶν οὔπω διώρισται, πολλῶν δὲ ἑτέρων συγγενῶν ἀπεμερίσθη. [¶8] Y. Soc. What kindred arts? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ποίων, εἰπέ, συγγενῶν; [¶9] Str. You do not seem to have followed what I have been saying; so I think I had better go back again and begin at the end. For if you understand what I mean by kinship, we distinguished from clothing something akin to it a moment ago when we separated rugs from it by the distinction between spreading under and wrapping round. > Greek: ΞΕ. οὐχ ἕσπου τοῖς λεχθεῖσιν, ὡς φαίνῃ· πάλιν οὖν ἔοικεν ἐπανιτέον ἀρχόμενον ἀπὸ τελευτῆς. εἰ γὰρ συννοεῖς τὴν οἰκειότητα, τὴν μὲν διετέμομεν ἀπʼ αὐτῆς νυνδή, τὴν τῶν στρωμάτων σύνθεσιν περιβολῇ χωρίζοντες καὶ ὑποβολῇ. [¶10] Y. Soc. I understand. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. μανθάνω. [¶11] Str. And we removed the entire manufacture of cloth made from flax and broom-cords and all that we just now called vegetable fibres; and then, too, we separated off the process of felting and the kind of joining that employs piercing and sewing, most important of which is the shoemaker’s art. > Greek: ΞΕ. καὶ μὴν τὴν ἐκ τῶν λίνων καὶ σπάρτων καὶ πάντων ὁπόσα φυτῶν ἄρτι νεῦρα κατὰ λόγον εἴπομεν, δημιουργίαν πᾶσαν ἀφείλομεν· τήν τε αὖ πιλητικὴν ἀφωρισάμεθα καὶ τὴν τρήσει καὶ ῥαφῇ χρωμένην σύνθεσιν, ἧς ἡ πλείστη σκυτοτομική. [¶12] Y. Soc. Yes, to be sure. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. [¶13] Str. And we separated off the art of making coverings of leather in single pieces and all the arts of making shelters, which we find in house-building and carpentering in general and in other methods of protection against water, and all the arts which furnish protection against theft and acts of violence, the arts, that is to say, of making lids and constructing doors, which are regarded as parts of the joiner’s art; and we cut off the armorer’s art, which is a section of the great and various function of making defences; and at the very beginning we cut off the whole art of magic which is concerned with antidotes and spells, and we have left, as it would seem, just the art we were seeking, which furnishes protection from the weather, manufactures a defence of wool, and is called the art of weaving. > Greek: ΞΕ. καὶ τοίνυν τὴν τῶν ὁλοσχίστων σκεπασμάτων θεραπείαν δερματουργικὴν καὶ τὰς τῶν στεγασμάτων, ὅσαι τε ἐν οἰκοδομικῇ καὶ ὅλῃ τεκτονικῇ καὶ ἐν ἄλλαις τέχναις ῥευμάτων στεκτικαὶ γίγνονται, συμπάσας ἀφείλομεν, ὅσαι τε περὶ τὰς κλοπὰς καὶ τὰς βίᾳ πράξεις διακωλυτικὰ ἔργα παρέχονται τέχναι φραγμάτων, περί τε γένεσιν ἐπιθηματουργίας οὖσαι καὶ τὰς τῶν θυρωμάτων πήξεις, γομφωτικῆς ἀπονεμηθεῖσαι μόρια τέχνης· τήν τε ὁπλοποιικὴν ἀπετεμόμεθα, μεγάλης καὶ παντοίας τῆς προβληματουργικῆς τμῆμα οὖσαν δυνάμεως· καὶ δὴ καὶ τὴν μαγευτικὴν τὴν περὶ τὰ ἀλεξιφάρμακα κατʼ ἀρχὰς εὐθὺς διωρισάμεθα σύμπασαν, καὶ λελοίπαμεν, ὡς δόξαιμεν ἄν, αὐτὴν τὴν ζητηθεῖσαν ἀμυντικὴν χειμώνων, ἐρεοῦ προβλήματος ἐργαστικήν, ὄνομα δὲ ὑφαντικὴν λεχθεῖσαν. [¶14] Y. Soc. That seems to be the case. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἔοικε γὰρ οὖν. [¶15] Str. But, my boy, this is not yet completely stated; for the man who is engaged in the first part of the making of clothes appears to do something the opposite of weaving. > Greek: ΞΕ. ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἔστι πω τέλεον, ὦ παῖ, τοῦτο λελεγμένον. ὁ γὰρ ἐν ἀρχῇ τῆς τῶν ἱματίων ἐργασίας ἁπτόμενος τοὐναντίον ὑφῇ δρᾶν φαίνεται. [¶16] Y. Soc. How so? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς; [¶17] Str. The process of weaving is, I take it, a kind of joining together. > Greek: ΞΕ. τὸ μὲν τῆς ὑφῆς συμπλοκή τίς ἐστί που. [¶18] Y. Soc. Yes. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί. [¶19] Str. But the first part I refer to is a separation of what is combined and matted together. > Greek: ΞΕ. τὸ δέ γε τῶν συνεστώτων καὶ συμπεπιλημένων διαλυτική. [¶20] Y. Soc. What do you mean? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον δή; [¶21] Str. The work of the carder’s art. Or shall we have the face to say that carding is weaving and the carder is a weaver? > Greek: ΞΕ. τὸ τῆς τοῦ ξαίνοντος τέχνης ἔργον. ἢ τὴν ξαντικὴν τολμήσομεν ὑφαντικὴν καὶ τὸν ξάντην ὡς ὄντα ὑφάντην καλεῖν; [¶22] Y. Soc. No, certainly not. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐδαμῶς. [¶23] Str. And surely if we say the art of making the warp or the woof is the art of weaving, we are employing an irrational and false designation. > Greek: ΞΕ. καὶ μὴν τήν γε αὖ στήμονος ἐργαστικὴν καὶ κρόκης εἴ τις ὑφαντικὴν προσαγορεύει, παράδοξόν τε καὶ ψεῦδος ὄνομα λέγει. [¶24] Y. Soc. Of course. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; [¶25] Str. Well then, shall we say that the whole arts of fulling and mending are no part of the care and treatment of clothes, or shall we declare that these also are entirely included in the art of weaving? > Greek: ΞΕ. τί δέ; κναφευτικὴν σύμπασαν καὶ τὴν ἀκεστικὴν πότερα μηδεμίαν ἐπιμέλειαν μηδέ τινα θεραπείαν ἐσθῆτος θῶμεν, ἢ καὶ ταύτας πάσας ὡς ὑφαντικὰς λέξομεν; [¶26] Y. Soc. By no means. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐδαμῶς. [¶27] Str. But surely all these will contest the claim of the art of weaving in the matter of the treatment and the production of clothes; they will grant that the part of weaving is the most important, but will claim that their own parts are of some importance, too. > Greek: ΞΕ. ἀλλὰ μὴν τῆς γε θεραπείας ἀμφισβητήσουσιν αὗται σύμπασαι καὶ τῆς γενέσεως τῆς τῶν ἱματίων τῇ τῆς ὑφαντικῆς δυνάμει, μέγιστον μὲν μέρος ἐκείνῃ διδοῦσαι, μεγάλα δὲ καὶ σφίσιν αὐταῖς ἀπονέμουσαι. [¶28] Y. Soc. Yes, certainly. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πάνυ γε. [¶29] Str. Then we must believe that besides these the arts which produce the tools by means of which the works of weaving are accomplished will claim to be collaborators in every work of weaving. > Greek: ΞΕ. πρὸς τοίνυν ταύταις ἔτι τὰς τῶν ἐργαλείων δημιουργοὺς τέχνας, διʼ ὧν ἀποτελεῖται τὰ τῆς ὑφῆς ἔργα, δοκεῖν χρὴ τό γε συναιτίας εἶναι προσποιήσασθαι παντὸς ὑφάσματος. [¶30] Y. Soc. Quite right. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ὀρθότατα. [¶31] Str. Will our definition of the art of weaving (I mean the part of it we selected) be satisfactory if we say that of all the activities connected with woollen clothing it is the noblest and the greatest? Or would that, although it contains some truth, yet lack clearness and completeness until we separate from weaving all these other arts? > Greek: ΞΕ. πότερον οὖν ἡμῖν ὁ περὶ τῆς ὑφαντικῆς λόγος, οὗ προειλόμεθα μέρους, ἱκανῶς ἔσται διωρισμένος, ἐὰν ἄρʼ αὐτὴν τῶν ἐπιμελειῶν ὁπόσαι περὶ τὴν ἐρεᾶν ἐσθῆτα, εἰς τὴν καλλίστην καὶ μεγίστην πασῶν τιθῶμεν· ἢ λέγοιμεν μὲν ἄν τι ἀληθές, οὐ μὴν σαφές γε οὐδὲ τέλεον, πρὶν ἂν καὶ ταύτας αὐτῆς πάσας περιέλωμεν; [¶32] Y. Soc. You are right. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ὀρθῶς. [¶33] Str. Then shall our next move be to do this, that our discussion may proceed in due order? > Greek: ΞΕ. οὐκοῦν μετὰ ταῦτα ποιητέον ὃ λέγομεν, ἵνʼ ἐφεξῆς ἡμῖν ὁ λόγος ἴῃ; [¶34] Y. Soc. Certainly. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς δʼ οὔ; [¶35] Str. First, then, let us observe that there are two arts involved in all production. > Greek: ΞΕ. πρῶτον μὲν τοίνυν δύο τέχνας οὔσας περὶ πάντα τὰ δρώμενα θεασώμεθα. [¶36] Y. Soc. What are they? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τίνας; [¶37] Str. The one is a contingent cause, the other is the actual cause. > Greek: ΞΕ. τὴν μὲν γενέσεως οὖσαν συναίτιον, τὴν δʼ αὐτὴν αἰτίαν. [¶38] Y. Soc. What do you mean? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς; [¶39] Str. Those arts which do not produce the actual thing in question, but which supply to the arts which do produce it the tools without which no art could ever perform its prescribed work, may be called contingent causes, and those which produce the actual thing are causes. > Greek: ΞΕ. ὅσαι μὲν τὸ πρᾶγμα αὐτὸ μὴ δημιουργοῦσι, ταῖς δὲ δημιουργούσαις ὄργανα παρασκευάζουσιν, ὧν μὴ παραγενομένων οὐκ ἄν ποτε ἐργασθείη τὸ προστεταγμένον ἑκάστῃ τῶν τεχνῶν, ταύτας μὲν συναιτίους, τὰς δὲ αὐτὸ τὸ πρᾶγμα ἀπεργαζομένας αἰτίας. [¶40] Y. Soc. At any rate, that is reasonable. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἔχει γοῦν λόγον. [¶41] Str. Next, then, shall we designate all the arts which produce spindles, shuttles, and the various other tools that partake in the production of clothing as contingent causes, and those which treat and manufacture the clothing itself as causes? > Greek: ΞΕ. μετὰ τοῦτο δὴ τὰς μὲν περί τε ἀτράκτους καὶ κερκίδας καὶ ὁπόσα ἄλλα ὄργανα τῆς περὶ τὰ ἀμφιέσματα γενέσεως κοινωνεῖ, πάσας συναιτίους εἴπωμεν, τὰς δὲ αὐτὰ θεραπευούσας καὶ δημιουργούσας αἰτίας; [¶42] Y. Soc. Quite right. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ὀρθότατα. [¶43] Str. And among the causal arts we may properly include washing and mending and all the care of clothing in such ways; and, since the art of adornment is a wide one, we may classify them as a part of it under the name of fulling. > Greek: ΞΕ. τῶν αἰτιῶν δὴ πλυντικὴν μὲν καὶ ἀκεστικὴν καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν περὶ ταῦτα θεραπευτικήν, πολλῆς οὔσης τῆς κοσμητικῆς, τοὐνταῦθα αὐτῆς μόριον εἰκὸς μάλιστα περιλαμβάνειν ὀνομάζοντας πᾶν τῇ τέχνῃ τῇ κναφευτικῇ. [¶44] Y. Soc. Good. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καλῶς. [¶45] Str. And, again, carding and spinning and all the processes concerned with the actual fabrication of the clothing under consideration, form collectively one art familiar to every one—the art of wool-working. > Greek: ΞΕ. καὶ μὴν ξαντική γε καὶ νηστικὴ καὶ πάντα αὖ τὰ περὶ τὴν ποίησιν αὐτὴν τῆς ἐσθῆτος ἧς λέγομεν μέρη, μία τίς ἐστι τέχνη τῶν ὑπὸ πάντων λεγομένων, ἡ ταλασιουργική. [¶46] Y. Soc. Of course. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; [¶47] Str. And wool-working comprises two divisions, and each of these is a part of two arts at once. > Greek: ΞΕ. τῆς δὴ ταλασιουργικῆς δύο τμήματά ἐστον, καὶ τούτοιν ἑκάτερον ἅμα δυοῖν πεφύκατον τέχναιν μέρη. [¶48] Y. Soc. How is that? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς; [¶49] Str. Carding, and one half of the use of the weaver’s rod, and the other crafts which separate things that are joined—all this collectively is a part of the art of wool-working; and in all things we found two great arts, that of composition and that of division. > Greek: ΞΕ. τὸ μὲν ξαντικὸν καὶ τὸ τῆς κερκιστικῆς ἥμισυ καὶ ὅσα τὰ συγκείμενα ἀπʼ ἀλλήλων ἀφίστησι, πᾶν τοῦτο ὡς ἓν φράζειν τῆς τε ταλασιουργίας αὐτῆς ἐστί που, καὶ μεγάλα τινὲ κατὰ πάντα ἡμῖν ἤστην τέχνα, ἡ συγκριτική τε καὶ διακριτική. [¶50] Y. Soc. Yes. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί. [¶51] Str. Now carding and all the other processes just mentioned are parts of the art of division; for the art of division in wool and threads, exercised in one way with the rod and in another with the hands, has all the names just mentioned. > Greek: ΞΕ. τῆς τοίνυν διακριτικῆς ἥ τε ξαντικὴ καὶ τὰ νυνδὴ ῥηθέντα ἅπαντά ἐστιν· ἡ γὰρ ἐν ἐρίοις τε καὶ στήμοσι διακριτική, κερκίδι μὲν ἄλλον τρόπον γιγνομένη, χερσὶ δὲ ἕτερον, ἔσχεν ὅσα ἀρτίως ὀνόματα ἐρρήθη. [¶52] Y. Soc. Yes, certainly. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. [¶53] Str. Then let us again take up something which is at once a part of the arts of composition and of wool-working. Let us put aside all that belongs to division, making two parts of wool-working, by applying the principles of division and of composition. > Greek: ΞΕ. αὖθις δὴ πάλιν συγκριτικῆς μόριον ἅμα καὶ ταλασιουργίας ἐν αὐτῇ γιγνόμενον λάβωμεν· ὅσα δὲ τῆς διακριτικῆς ἦν αὐτόθι, μεθιῶμεν σύμπαντα, δίχα τέμνοντες τὴν ταλασιουργίαν διακριτικῷ τε καὶ συγκριτικῷ τμήματι. [¶54] Y. Soc. Let us make that distinction. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. διῃρήσθω. [¶55] Str. The part which belongs at once to composition and to wool-working, Socrates, you must allow us to divide again, if we are to get a satisfactory concept of the aforesaid art of weaving. > Greek: ΞΕ. τὸ συγκριτικὸν τοίνυν αὖ σοι καὶ ταλασιουργικὸν ἅμα μόριον, ὦ Σώκρατες, διαιρετέον, εἴπερ ἱκανῶς μέλλομεν τὴν προρρηθεῖσαν ὑφαντικὴν αἱρήσειν. [¶56] Y. Soc. Then we must divide it. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν χρή. [¶57] Str. Yes, we must; and let us call one part of it the art of twisting threads, and the other the art of intertwining them. > Greek: ΞΕ. χρὴ μὲν οὖν· καὶ λέγωμέν γε αὐτῆς τὸ μὲν εἶναι στρεπτικόν, τὸ δὲ συμπλεκτικόν. [¶58] Y. Soc. I am not sure I understand. By the art of twisting I think you mean the making of the warp. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν μανθάνω; δοκεῖς γάρ μοι τὸ περὶ τὴν τοῦ στήμονος ἐργασίαν λέγειν στρεπτικόν. [¶59] Str. Not that only, but also the making of the woof. We shall not find that the woof is made without twisting, shall we? > Greek: ΞΕ. οὐ μόνον γε, ἀλλὰ καὶ κρόκης· ἢ γένεσιν ἄστροφόν τινα αὐτῆς εὑρήσομεν; [¶60] Y. Soc. No, of course not. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐδαμῶς. [¶61] Str. Well, just define warp and woof; perhaps the definition would serve you well at this junction. > Greek: ΞΕ. διόρισαι δὴ καὶ τούτοιν ἑκάτερον· ἴσως γὰρ ὁ διορισμὸς ἔγκαιρος ἄν σοι γένοιτο. [¶62] Y. Soc. How shall I do it? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῇ; [¶63] Str. In this way: A piece of carded wool, which is lengthened out and is wide, is said to be a lap of wool, is it not? > Greek: ΞΕ. τῇδε· τῶν περὶ ξαντικὴν ἔργων μηκυνθέν τε καὶ σχὸν πλάτος λέγομεν εἶναι κάταγμά τι; [¶64] Y. Soc. Yes. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί. [¶65] Str. And if any such lap of wool is twisted with a spindle and made into a hard thread, we call the thread warp, and the art which governs this process is the art of spinning the warp. > Greek: ΞΕ. τούτου δὴ τὸ μὲν ἀτράκτῳ τε στραφὲν καὶ στερεὸν νῆμα γενόμενον στήμονα μὲν φάθι τὸ νῆμα, τὴν δὲ ἀπευθύνουσαν αὐτὸ τέχνην εἶναι στημονονητικήν. [¶66] Y. Soc. Right. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ὀρθῶς. [¶67] Str. And the threads, in turn, which are more loosely twisted and have in respect to the force used in the carding a softness adapted to the interweaving with the warp we will call the woof, and the art devoted to these we will call the art of preparing the woof. > Greek: ΞΕ. ὅσα δέ γε αὖ τὴν μὲν συστροφὴν χαύνην λαμβάνει, τῇ δὲ τοῦ στήμονος ἐμπλέξει πρὸς τὴν τῆς γνάψεως ὁλκὴν ἐμμέτρως τὴν μαλακότητα ἴσχει, ταῦτʼ ἄρα κρόκην μὲν τὰ νηθέντα, τὴν δὲ ἐπιτεταγμένην αὐτοῖς εἶναι τέχνην τὴν κροκονητικὴν φῶμεν. [¶68] Y. Soc. Quite right. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ὀρθότατα. [¶69] Str. So now the part of the art of weaving which we chose for our discussion is clear to pretty much every understanding; for when that part of the art of composition which is included in the art of weaving forms a web by the right intertwining of woof and warp, we call the entire web a woollen garment, and the art which directs this process we call weaving. > Greek: ΞΕ. καὶ μὴν τό γε τῆς ὑφαντικῆς μέρος ὃ προυθέμεθα, παντί που δῆλον ἤδη. τὸ γὰρ συγκριτικῆς τῆς ἐν ταλασιουργίᾳ μόριον ὅταν εὐθυπλοκίᾳ κρόκης καὶ στήμονος ἀπεργάζηται πλέγμα, τὸ μὲν πλεχθὲν σύμπαν ἐσθῆτα ἐρεᾶν, τὴν δʼ ἐπὶ τούτῳ τέχνην οὖσαν προσαγορεύομεν ὑφαντικήν. [¶70] Y. Soc. Quite right. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ὀρθότατα. [¶71] Str. Very good. Then why in the world did we not say at once that weaving is the intertwining of woof and warp? Why did we beat about the bush and make a host of futile distinctions? > Greek: ΞΕ. εἶεν· τί δή ποτε οὖν οὐκ εὐθὺς ἀπεκρινάμεθα πλεκτικὴν εἶναι κρόκης καὶ στήμονος ὑφαντικήν, ἀλλὰ περιήλθομεν ἐν κύκλῳ πάμπολλα διοριζόμενοι μάτην; [¶72] Y. Soc. For my part, I thought nothing that was said was futile, Stranger. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὔκουν ἔμοιγε, ὦ ξένε, μάτην οὐδὲν τῶν ῥηθέντων ἔδοξε ῥηθῆναι. [¶73] Str. And no wonder; but perhaps you might change your mind. Now to avoid any such malady, in case it should, as is not unlikely, attack you frequently hereafter, I will propose a principle of procedure which is applicable to all cases of this sort. > Greek: ΞΕ. καὶ θαυμαστόν γε οὐδέν· ἀλλὰ τάχʼ ἄν, ὦ μακάριε, δόξειε. πρὸς δὴ τὸ νόσημα τὸ τοιοῦτον, ἂν ἄρα πολλάκις ὕστερον ἐπίῃ—θαυμαστὸν γὰρ οὐδέν—λόγον ἄκουσόν τινα προσήκοντα περὶ πάντων τῶν τοιούτων ῥηθῆναι. [¶74] Y. Soc. Do so. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. λέγε μόνον. [¶75] Str. First, then, let us scrutinize the general nature of excess and deficiency, for the sake of obtaining a rational basis for any praise or blame we may bestow upon excessive length or brevity in discussions of this kind. > Greek: ΞΕ. πρῶτον τοίνυν ἴδωμεν πᾶσαν τήν τε ὑπερβολὴν καὶ τὴν ἔλλειψιν, ἵνα κατὰ λόγον ἐπαινῶμεν καὶ ψέγωμεν τὰ μακρότερα τοῦ δέοντος ἑκάστοτε λεγόμενα καὶ τἀναντία περὶ τὰς τοιάσδε διατριβάς. [¶76] Y. Soc. Yes, that is a good thing to do. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν χρή. [¶77] Str. Then the proper subjects for our consideration would, I fancy, be these. > Greek: ΞΕ. περὶ δὴ τούτων αὐτῶν ὁ λόγος ἡμῖν οἶμαι γιγνόμενος ὀρθῶς ἂν γίγνοιτο. [¶78] Y. Soc. What? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τίνων; [¶79] Str. Length and shortness and excess and deficiency in general; for all of them may be regarded as the subjects of the art of measurement. > Greek: ΞΕ. μήκους τε πέρι καὶ βραχύτητος καὶ πάσης ὑπεροχῆς τε καὶ ἐλλείψεως· ἡ γάρ που μετρητικὴ περὶ πάντʼ ἐστὶ ταῦτα. [¶80] Y. Soc. Yes. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί. [¶81] Str. Let us, then, divide that art into two parts; that is essential for our present purpose. > Greek: ΞΕ. διέλωμεν τοίνυν αὐτὴν δύο μέρη· δεῖ γὰρ δὴ πρὸς ὃ νῦν σπεύδομεν. [¶82] Y. Soc. Please tell how to make the division. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. λέγοις ἂν τὴν διαίρεσιν ὅπῃ. [¶83] Str. In this way: one part is concerned with relative greatness or smallness, the other with the something without which production would not be possible. > Greek: ΞΕ. τῇδε· τὸ μὲν κατὰ τὴν πρὸς ἄλληλα μεγέθους καὶ σμικρότητος κοινωνίαν, τὸ δὲ [τὸ] κατὰ τὴν τῆς γενέσεως ἀναγκαίαν οὐσίαν. [¶84] Y. Soc. What do you mean? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς λέγεις; [¶85] Str. Do you not think that, by the nature of the case, we must say that the greater is greater than the less and than nothing else, and that the less is less than the greater and than nothing else? > Greek: ΞΕ. ἆρʼ οὐ κατὰ φύσιν δοκεῖ σοι τὸ μεῖζον μηδενὸς ἑτέρου δεῖν μεῖζον λέγειν ἢ τοῦ ἐλάττονος, καὶ τοὔλαττον αὖ τοῦ μείζονος ἔλαττον, ἄλλου δὲ μηδενός; [¶86] Y. Soc. Yes. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἔμοιγε. [¶87] Str. But must we not also assert the real existence of excess beyond the standard of the mean, and of inferiority to the mean, whether in words or deeds, and is not the chief difference between good men and bad found in such excess or deficiency? > Greek: ΞΕ. τί δέ; τὸ τὴν τοῦ μετρίου φύσιν ὑπερβάλλον καὶ ὑπερβαλλόμενον ὑπʼ αὐτῆς ἐν λόγοις εἴτε καὶ ἐν ἔργοις ἆρʼ οὐκ αὖ λέξομεν ὡς ὄντως γιγνόμενον, ἐν ᾧ καὶ διαφέρουσι μάλιστα ἡμῶν οἵ τε κακοὶ καὶ [οἱ] ἀγαθοί; [¶88] Y. Soc. That is clear. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. φαίνεται. [¶89] Str. Then we must assume that there are these two kinds of great and small, and these two ways of distinguishing between them; we must not, as we did a little while ago, say that they are relative to one another only, but rather, as we have just said, that one kind is relative in that way, and the other is relative to the standard of the mean. Should we care to learn the reason for this? > Greek: ΞΕ. διττὰς ἄρα ταύτας οὐσίας καὶ κρίσεις τοῦ μεγάλου καὶ τοῦ σμικροῦ θετέον, ἀλλʼ οὐχ ὡς ἔφαμεν ἄρτι πρὸς ἄλληλα μόνον δεῖν, ἀλλʼ ὥσπερ νῦν εἴρηται μᾶλλον τὴν μὲν πρὸς ἄλληλα λεκτέον, τὴν δʼ αὖ πρὸς τὸ μέτριον· οὗ δὲ ἕνεκα, μαθεῖν ἆρʼ ἂν βουλοίμεθα; [¶90] Y. Soc. Of course. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τί μήν; [¶91] Str. If we assert that the greater has no relation to anything except the less, it will never have any relation to the standard of the mean, will it? > Greek: ΞΕ. εἰ πρὸς μηδὲν ἕτερον τὴν τοῦ μείζονος ἐάσει τις φύσιν ἢ πρὸς τοὔλαττον, οὐκ ἔσται ποτὲ πρὸς τὸ μέτριον· ἦ γάρ; [¶92] Y. Soc. No. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὕτως. [¶93] Str. Will not this doctrine destroy the arts and their works one and all, and do away also with statesmanship, which we are now trying to define, and with weaving, which we did define? For all these are doubtless careful about excess and deficiency in relation to the standard of the mean; they regard them not as non-existent, but as real difficulties in actual practice, and it is in this way, when they preserve the standard of the mean, that all their works are good and beautiful. > Greek: ΞΕ. οὐκοῦν τὰς τέχνας τε αὐτὰς καὶ τἆργα αὐτῶν σύμπαντα διολοῦμεν τούτῳ τῷ λόγῳ, καὶ δὴ καὶ τὴν ζητουμένην νῦν πολιτικὴν καὶ τὴν ῥηθεῖσαν ὑφαντικὴν ἀφανιοῦμεν; ἅπασαι γὰρ αἱ τοιαῦταί που τὸ τοῦ μετρίου πλέον καὶ ἔλαττον οὐχ ὡς οὐκ ὂν ἀλλʼ ὡς ὂν χαλεπὸν περὶ τὰς πράξεις παραφυλάττουσι, καὶ τούτῳ δὴ τῷ τρόπῳ τὸ μέτρον σῴζουσαι πάντα ἀγαθὰ καὶ καλὰ ἀπεργάζονται. [¶94] Y. Soc. Certainly. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τί μήν; [¶95] Str. And if we do away with the art of statesmanship, our subsequent search for the kingly art will be hopeless, will it not? > Greek: ΞΕ. οὐκοῦν ἂν τὴν πολιτικὴν ἀφανίσωμεν, ἄπορος ἡμῖν ἡ μετὰ τοῦτο ἔσται ζήτησις τῆς βασιλικῆς ἐπιστήμης; [¶96] Y. Soc. Certainly. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καὶ μάλα. [¶97] Str. Then just as in the case of the sophist we forced the conclusion that not-being exists, since that was the point at which we had lost our hold of the argument, so now we must force this second conclusion, that the greater and the less are to be measured in relation, not only to one another, but also to the establishment of the standard of the mean, must we not? For if this is not admitted, neither the statesman nor any other man who has knowledge of practical affairs can be said without any doubt to exist. > Greek: ΞΕ. πότερον οὖν, καθάπερ ἐν τῷ σοφιστῇ προσηναγκάσαμεν εἶναι τὸ μὴ ὄν, ἐπειδὴ κατὰ τοῦτο διέφυγεν ἡμᾶς ὁ λόγος, οὕτω καὶ νῦν τὸ πλέον αὖ καὶ ἔλαττον μετρητὰ προσαναγκαστέον γίγνεσθαι μὴ πρὸς ἄλληλα μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ μετρίου γένεσιν; οὐ γὰρ δὴ δυνατόν γε οὔτε πολιτικὸν οὔτʼ ἄλλον τινὰ τῶν περὶ τὰς πράξεις ἐπιστήμονα ἀναμφισβητήτως γεγονέναι τούτου μὴ συνομολογηθέντος. [¶98] Y. Soc. Then we must by all means do now the same that we did then. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ νῦν ὅτι μάλιστα χρὴ ταὐτὸν ποιεῖν. [¶99] Str. This, Socrates, is a still greater task than that was; and yet we remember how long that took us; but it is perfectly fair to make about them some such assumption as this. > Greek: ΞΕ. πλέον, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔτι τοῦτο τὸ ἔργον ἢ ʼκεῖνο— καίτοι κἀκείνου γε μεμνήμεθα τὸ μῆκος ὅσον ἦν—ἀλλʼ ὑποτίθεσθαι μὲν τὸ τοιόνδε περὶ αὐτῶν καὶ μάλα δίκαιον. [¶100] Y. Soc. As what? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον; [¶101] Str. That sometime we shall need this principle of the mean for the demonstration of absolute precise truth. But our belief that the demonstration is for our present purpose good and sufficient is, in my opinion, magnificently supported by this argument—that we must believe that all the arts alike exist and that the greater and the less are measured in relation not only to one another but also to the establishment of the standard of the mean. For if this exists, they exist also, and if they exist, it exists also, but neither can ever exist if the other does not. > Greek: ΞΕ. ὥς ποτε δεήσει τοῦ νῦν λεχθέντος πρὸς τὴν περὶ αὐτὸ τἀκριβὲς ἀπόδειξιν. ὅτι δὲ πρὸς τὰ νῦν καλῶς καὶ ἱκανῶς δείκνυται, δοκεῖ μοι βοηθεῖν μεγαλοπρεπῶς ἡμῖν οὗτος ὁ λόγος, ὡς ἄρα ἡγητέον ὁμοίως τὰς τέχνας πάσας εἶναι, μεῖζόν τε ἅμα καὶ ἔλαττον μετρεῖσθαι μὴ πρὸς ἄλληλα μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ μετρίου γένεσιν. τούτου τε γὰρ ὄντος ἐκεῖνα ἔστι, κἀκείνων οὐσῶν ἔστι καὶ τοῦτο, μὴ δὲ ὄντος ποτέρου τούτων οὐδέτερον αὐτῶν ἔσται ποτέ. [¶102] Y. Soc. That is quite right. But what comes next? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τοῦτο μὲν ὀρθῶς· ἀλλὰ τί δὴ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο; [¶103] Str. We should evidently divide the science of measurement into two parts in accordance with what has been said. One part comprises all the arts which measure number, length, depth, breadth, and thickness in relation to their opposites; the other comprises those which measure them in relation to the moderate, the fitting, the opportune, the needful, and all the other standards that are situated in the mean between the extremes. > Greek: ΞΕ. δῆλον ὅτι διαιροῖμεν ἂν τὴν μετρητικήν, καθάπερ ἐρρήθη, ταύτῃ δίχα τέμνοντες, ἓν μὲν τιθέντες αὐτῆς μόριον συμπάσας τέχνας ὁπόσαι τὸν ἀριθμὸν καὶ μήκη καὶ βάθη καὶ πλάτη καὶ ταχυτῆτας πρὸς τοὐναντίον μετροῦσιν, τὸ δὲ ἕτερον, ὁπόσαι πρὸς τὸ μέτριον καὶ τὸ πρέπον καὶ τὸν καιρὸν καὶ τὸ δέον καὶ πάνθʼ ὁπόσα εἰς τὸ μέσον ἀπῳκίσθη τῶν ἐσχάτων. [¶104] Y. Soc. Both of your divisions are extensive, and there is a great difference between them. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καὶ μέγα γε ἑκάτερον τμῆμα εἶπες, καὶ πολὺ διαφέρον ἀλλήλοιν. [¶105] Str. Yes, for what many clever persons occasionally say, Socrates, fancying that it is a wise remark, namely, that the science of measurement has to do with everything, is precisely the same as what we have just said. For in a certain way all things which are in the province of art do partake of measurement; but because people are not in the habit of considering things by dividing them into classes, they hastily put these widely different relations into the same category, thinking they are alike; and again they do the opposite of this when they fail to divide other things into parts. What they ought to do is this: when a person at first sees only the unity or common quality of many things, he must not give up until he sees all the differences in them, so far as they exist in classes; and conversely, when all sorts of dissimilarities are seen in a large number of objects he must find it impossible to be discouraged or to stop until has gathered into one circle of similarity all the things which are related to each other and has included them in some sort of class on the basis of their essential nature. No more need be said, then, about this or about deficiency and excess; let us only bear carefully in mind that two kinds of measurement which apply to them have been found, and let us remember what those kinds are. > Greek: ΞΕ. ὃ γὰρ ἐνίοτε, ὦ Σώκρατες, οἰόμενοι δή τι σοφὸν φράζειν πολλοὶ τῶν κομψῶν λέγουσιν, ὡς ἄρα μετρητικὴ περὶ πάντʼ ἐστὶ τὰ γιγνόμενα, τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ τὸ νῦν λεχθὲν ὂν τυγχάνει. μετρήσεως μὲν γὰρ δή τινα τρόπον πάνθʼ ὁπόσα ἔντεχνα μετείληφεν· διὰ δὲ τὸ μὴ κατʼ εἴδη συνειθίσθαι σκοπεῖν διαιρουμένους ταῦτά τε τοσοῦτον διαφέροντα συμβάλλουσιν εὐθὺς εἰς ταὐτὸν ὅμοια νομίσαντες, καὶ τοὐναντίον αὖ τούτου δρῶσιν ἕτερα οὐ κατὰ μέρη διαιροῦντες, δέον, ὅταν μὲν τὴν τῶν πολλῶν τις πρότερον αἴσθηται κοινωνίαν, μὴ προαφίστασθαι πρὶν ἂν ἐν αὐτῇ τὰς διαφορὰς ἴδῃ πάσας ὁπόσαιπερ ἐν εἴδεσι κεῖνται, τὰς δὲ αὖ παντοδαπὰς ἀνομοιότητας, ὅταν ἐν πλήθεσιν ὀφθῶσιν, μὴ δυνατὸν εἶναι δυσωπούμενον παύεσθαι πρὶν ἂν σύμπαντα τὰ οἰκεῖα ἐντὸς μιᾶς ὁμοιότητος ἕρξας γένους τινὸς οὐσίᾳ περιβάληται. ταῦτα μὲν οὖν ἱκανῶς περί τε τούτων καὶ περὶ τῶν ἐλλείψεων καὶ ὑπερβολῶν εἰρήσθω· φυλάττωμεν δὲ μόνον ὅτι δύο γένη περὶ αὐτὰ ἐξηύρηται τῆς μετρητικῆς, καὶ ἅ φαμεν αὔτʼ εἶναι μεμνώμεθα. [¶106] Y. Soc. We will remember. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. μεμνησόμεθα. [¶107] Str. Now that we have finished this discussion, let us take up another which concerns the actual objects of our inquiry and the conduct of such discussions in general. > Greek: ΞΕ. μετὰ τοῦτον δὴ τὸν λόγον ἕτερον προσδεξώμεθα περὶ αὐτῶν τε τῶν ζητουμένων καὶ περὶ πάσης τῆς ἐν τοῖς τοιοῖσδε λόγοις διατριβῆς. [¶108] Y. Soc. What is it? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον; [¶109] Str. Suppose we were asked the following question about a group of pupils learning their letters: “When a pupil is asked of what letters some word or other composed, is the question asked for the sake of the one particular word before him or rather to make him more learned about all words in the lesson?” > Greek: ΞΕ. εἴ τις ἀνέροιτο ἡμᾶς τὴν περὶ γράμματα συνουσίαν τῶν μανθανόντων, ὁπόταν τις ὁτιοῦν ὄνομα ἐρωτηθῇ τίνων ἐστὶ γραμμάτων, πότερον αὐτῷ τότε φῶμεν γίγνεσθαι τὴν ζήτησιν ἑνὸς ἕνεκα μᾶλλον τοῦ προβληθέντος ἢ τοῦ περὶ πάντα τὰ προβαλλόμενα γραμματικωτέρῳ γίγνεσθαι; [¶110] Y. Soc. Clearly to make him more learned about them all. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. δῆλον ὅτι τοῦ περὶ ἅπαντα. [¶111] Str. And how about our own investigation of the statesman? Has it been undertaken for the sake of his particular subject or rather to make us better thinkers about all subjects? > Greek: ΞΕ. τί δʼ αὖ νῦν ἡμῖν ἡ περὶ τοῦ πολιτικοῦ ζήτησις; ἕνεκα αὐτοῦ τούτου προβέβληται μᾶλλον ἢ τοῦ περὶ πάντα διαλεκτικωτέροις γίγνεσθαι; [¶112] Y. Soc. Clearly this also is done with a view to them all. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καὶ τοῦτο δῆλον ὅτι τοῦ περὶ πάντα. [¶113] Str. Of course no man of sense would wish to pursue the discussion of weaving for its own sake; but most people, it seems to me, fail to notice that some things have sensible resemblances which are easily perceived; and it is not at all difficult to show them when anyone wishes, in response to a request for an explanation of some one of them, to exhibit them easily without trouble and really without explanation. But, on the other hand, the greatest and noblest conceptions have no image wrought plainly for human vision, which he who wishes to satisfy the mind of the inquirer can apply to some one of his senses and by mere exhibition satisfy the mind. > Greek: ΞΕ. ἦ που τὸν τῆς ὑφαντικῆς γε λόγον αὐτῆς ταύτης ἕνεκα θηρεύειν οὐδεὶς ἂν ἐθελήσειεν νοῦν ἔχων· ἀλλʼ οἶμαι τοὺς πλείστους λέληθεν ὅτι τοῖς μὲν τῶν ὄντων ῥᾳδίως καταμαθεῖν αἰσθηταί τινες ὁμοιότητες πεφύκασιν, ἃς οὐδὲν χαλεπὸν δηλοῦν, ὅταν αὐτῶν τις βουληθῇ τῷ λόγον αἰτοῦντι περί του μὴ μετὰ πραγμάτων ἀλλὰ χωρὶς λόγου ῥᾳδίως ἐνδείξασθαι· τοῖς δʼ αὖ μεγίστοις οὖσι καὶ τιμιωτάτοις οὐκ ἔστιν εἴδωλον οὐδὲν πρὸς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους εἰργασμένον ἐναργῶς, οὗ δειχθέντος τὴν τοῦ πυνθανομένου ψυχὴν ὁ βουλόμενος ἀποπληρῶσαι, πρὸς τῶν αἰσθήσεών τινα προσαρμόττων, ἱκανῶς πληρώσει. [¶114] Str. We must therefore endeavor by practice to acquire the power of giving and understanding a rational definition of each one of them; for immaterial things, which are the noblest and greatest, can be exhibited by reason only, and it is for their sake that all we are saying is said. But it is always easier to practise in small matters than in greater ones. > Greek: ΞΕ. διὸ δεῖ μελετᾶν λόγον ἑκάστου δυνατὸν εἶναι δοῦναι καὶ δέξασθαι· τὰ γὰρ ἀσώματα, κάλλιστα ὄντα καὶ μέγιστα, λόγῳ μόνον ἄλλῳ δὲ οὐδενὶ σαφῶς δείκνυται, τούτων δὲ ἕνεκα πάντʼ ἐστὶ τὰ νῦν λεγόμενα. ῥᾴων δʼ ἐν τοῖς ἐλάττοσιν ἡ μελέτη παντὸς πέρι μᾶλλον ἢ περὶ τὰ μείζω. [¶115] Y. Soc. Excellent. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. κάλλιστʼ εἶπες. [¶116] Str. Let us, then, remember the reason for all that we have said about these matters. > Greek: ΞΕ. ὧν τοίνυν χάριν ἅπανθʼ ἡμῖν ταῦτʼ ἐρρήθη περὶ τούτων, μνησθῶμεν. [¶117] Y. Soc. What is the reason? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τίνων; [¶118] Str. The reason is chiefly just that irritating impatience which we exhibited in relation to the long talk about weaving and the revolution of the universe and the sophist’s long talk about the existence of not-being. We felt that they were too long, and we reproached ourselves for all of them, fearing that our talk was not only long, but irrelevant. Consider, therefore, that the reason for what has just been said is my wish to avoid any such impatience in the future. > Greek: ΞΕ. ταύτης τε οὐχ ἥκιστα αὐτῆς ἕνεκα τῆς δυσχερείας ἣν περὶ τὴν μακρολογίαν τὴν περὶ τὴν ὑφαντικὴν ἀπεδεξάμεθα δυσχερῶς, καὶ τὴν περὶ τὴν τοῦ παντὸς ἀνείλιξιν καὶ τὴν τοῦ σοφιστοῦ πέρι τῆς τοῦ μὴ ὄντος οὐσίας, ἐννοοῦντες ὡς ἔσχε μῆκος πλέον, καὶ ἐπὶ τούτοις δὴ πᾶσιν ἐπεπλήξαμεν ἡμῖν αὐτοῖς, δείσαντες μὴ περίεργα ἅμα καὶ μακρὰ λέγοιμεν. ἵνʼ οὖν εἰς αὖθις μηδὲν πάσχωμεν τοιοῦτον, τούτων ἕνεκα πάντων τὰ πρόσθε νῷν εἰρῆσθαι φάθι. [¶119] Y. Soc. Very well. Please go on with what you have to say. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ταῦτʼ ἔσται. λέγε ἑξῆς μόνον. [¶120] Str. What I have to say, then, is that you and I, remembering what has just been said, must praise or blame the brevity or length of our several discussions, not by comparing their various lengths with one another, but with reference to that part of the science of measurement which we said before must be borne in mind; I mean the standard of fitness. > Greek: ΞΕ. λέγω τοίνυν ὅτι χρὴ δὴ μεμνημένους ἐμὲ καὶ σὲ τῶν νῦν εἰρημένων τόν τε ψόγον ἑκάστοτε καὶ ἔπαινον ποιεῖσθαι βραχύτητος ἅμα καὶ μήκους ὧν ἂν ἀεὶ πέρι λέγωμεν, μὴ πρὸς ἄλληλα τὰ μήκη κρίνοντες ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὸ τῆς μετρητικῆς μέρος ὃ τότε ἔφαμεν δεῖν μεμνῆσθαι, πρὸς τὸ πρέπον. [¶121] Y. Soc. Quite right. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ὀρθῶς. [¶122] Str. But we must not always judge of length by fitness, either. For we shall not in the least want a length that is fitted to give pleasure, except, perhaps, as a secondary consideration; and again reason counsels us to accept fitness for the easiest and quickest completion of the inquiry in which we are engaged, not as the first, but as the second thing to be desired. By far our first and most important object should be to exalt the method itself of ability to divide by classes, and therefore, if a discourse, even though it be very long, makes the hearer better able to discover the truth, we should accept it eagerly and should not be offended by its length, or if it is short, we should judge it in the same way. And, moreover, anyone who finds fault with the length of discourses in our discussions, or objects to roundabout methods, must not merely find fault with the speeches for their length and then pass them quickly and hastily by, but he must also show that there is ground for the belief that if they had been briefer they would have made their hearers better dialecticians and quicker to discover through reason the truth of realities. About other people and the praise or blame they direct towards other qualities in discourse, we need not be concerned; we need not even appear to hear them. But enough of this, if you feel about it as I do; so let us go back to the statesman and apply to him the example of weaving that we spoke of a while ago. > Greek: ΞΕ. οὐ τοίνυν οὐδὲ πρὸς τοῦτο πάντα. οὔτε γὰρ πρὸς τὴν ἡδονὴν μήκους ἁρμόττοντος οὐδὲν προσδεησόμεθα, πλὴν εἰ πάρεργόν τι· τό τε αὖ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ προβληθέντος ζήτησιν, ὡς ἂν ῥᾷστα καὶ τάχιστα εὕροιμεν, δεύτερον ἀλλʼ οὐ πρῶτον ὁ λόγος ἀγαπᾶν παραγγέλλει, πολὺ δὲ μάλιστα καὶ πρῶτον τὴν μέθοδον αὐτὴν τιμᾶν τοῦ κατʼ εἴδη δυνατὸν εἶναι διαιρεῖν, καὶ δὴ καὶ λόγον, ἄντε παμμήκης λεχθεὶς τὸν ἀκούσαντα εὑρετικώτερον ἀπεργάζηται, τοῦτον σπουδάζειν καὶ τῷ μήκει μηδὲν ἀγανακτεῖν, ἄντʼ αὖ βραχύτερος, ὡσαύτως· ἔτι δʼ αὖ πρὸς τούτοις τὸν περὶ τὰς τοιάσδε συνουσίας ψέγοντα λόγων μήκη καὶ τὰς ἐν κύκλῳ περιόδους οὐκ ἀποδεχόμενον, ὅτι χρὴ τὸν τοιοῦτον μὴ [πάνυ] ταχὺ μηδʼ εὐθὺς οὕτω μεθιέναι ψέξαντα μόνον ὡς μακρὰ τὰ λεχθέντα, ἀλλὰ καὶ προσαποφαίνειν οἴεσθαι δεῖν ὡς βραχύτερα ἂν γενόμενα τοὺς συνόντας ἀπηργάζετο διαλεκτικωτέρους καὶ τῆς τῶν ὄντων λόγῳ δηλώσεως εὑρετικωτέρους, τῶν δὲ ἄλλων καὶ πρὸς ἄλλʼ ἄττα ψόγων καὶ ἐπαίνων μηδὲν φροντίζειν μηδὲ τὸ παράπαν ἀκούειν δοκεῖν τῶν τοιούτων λόγων. καὶ τούτων μὲν ἅλις, εἰ καὶ σοὶ ταύτῃ συνδοκεῖ· πρὸς δὲ δὴ τὸν πολιτικὸν ἴωμεν πάλιν, τῆς προρρηθείσης ὑφαντικῆς αὐτῷ φέροντες τὸ παράδειγμα. [¶123] Y. Soc. Very well; let us do so. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καλῶς εἶπες, καὶ ποιῶμεν ἃ λέγεις. [¶124] Str. The art of the king, then, has been separated from most of the kindred arts, or rather from all the arts that have to do with herds. There remain, however, the arts that have to do with the state itself. These are both causes and contingent causes, and our first duty is to separate them from one another. > Greek: ΞΕ. οὐκοῦν ἀπό γε τῶν πολλῶν ὁ βασιλεὺς ὅσαι σύννομοι, μᾶλλον δὲ ἀπὸ πασῶν τῶν περὶ τὰς ἀγέλας διακεχώρισται· λοιπαὶ δέ, φαμέν, αἱ κατὰ πόλιν αὐτὴν τῶν τε συναιτίων καὶ τῶν αἰτίων, ἃς πρώτας ἀπʼ ἀλλήλων διαιρετέον. [¶125] Y. Soc. Quite right. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ὀρθῶς. [¶126] Str. It is not easy to divide them into halves, you know. But I think the reason will nevertheless be clear as we go on. > Greek: ΞΕ. οἶσθʼ οὖν ὅτι χαλεπὸν αὐτὰς τεμεῖν δίχα; τὸ δʼ αἴτιον, ὡς οἶμαι, προϊοῦσιν οὐχ ἧττον ἔσται καταφανές. [¶127] Y. Soc. Then we had better divide in another way. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν χρὴ δρᾶν οὕτως. [¶128] Str. Let us divide them, then, like an animal that is sacrificed, by joints, since we cannot bisect them; for we must always divide into a number of parts as near two as possible. > Greek: ΞΕ. κατὰ μέλη τοίνυν αὐτὰς οἷον ἱερεῖον διαιρώμεθα, ἐπειδὴ δίχα ἀδυνατοῦμεν. δεῖ γὰρ εἰς τὸν ἐγγύτατα ὅτι μάλιστα τέμνειν ἀριθμὸν ἀεί. [¶129] Y. Soc. How shall we do it in the present instance? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς οὖν ποιῶμεν τὰ νῦν; [¶130] Str. Just as in the previous case, you know, we classed all the arts which furnished tools for weaving as contingent causes. > Greek: ΞΕ. ὥσπερ ἔμπροσθεν, ὁπόσαι παρείχοντο ὄργανα περὶ τὴν ὑφαντικήν, πάσας δήπου τότε ἐτίθεμεν ὡς συναιτίους. [¶131] Y. Soc. Yes. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ναί. [¶132] Str. So now we must do the same thing, but it is even more imperative. For all the arts which furnish any implement, great or small, for the state, must be classed as contingent causes; for without them neither state nor statesmanship could ever exist, and yet I do not suppose we shall reckon any of them as the work of the kingly art. > Greek: ΞΕ. καὶ νῦν δὴ ταὐτὸν μὲν τοῦτο, ἔτι δὲ μᾶλλον ἢ τόθʼ ἡμῖν ποιητέον. ὅσαι γὰρ σμικρὸν ἢ μέγα τι δημιουργοῦσι κατὰ πόλιν ὄργανον, θετέον ἁπάσας ταύτας ὡς οὔσας συναιτίους. ἄνευ γὰρ τούτων οὐκ ἄν ποτε γένοιτο πόλις οὐδὲ πολιτική, τούτων δʼ αὖ βασιλικῆς ἔργον τέχνης οὐδέν που θήσομεν. [¶133] Y. Soc. No. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐ γάρ. [¶134] Str. We shall certainly be undertaking a hard task in separating this class from the rest; for it might be said that everything that exists is the instrument of something or other, and the statement seems plausible. But there are possessions of another kind in the state, about which I wish to say something. > Greek: ΞΕ. καὶ μὲν δὴ χαλεπὸν ἐπιχειροῦμεν δρᾶν ἀποχωρίζοντες τοῦτο ἀπὸ τῶν ἄλλων τὸ γένος· ὅτι γὰρ οὖν τῶν ὄντων ἔστιν ὡς ἑνός γέ τινος ὄργανον εἰπόντα δοκεῖν εἰρηκέναι τι πιθανόν. ὅμως δὲ ἕτερον αὖ τῶν ἐν πόλει κτημάτων εἴπωμεν τόδε. [¶135] Y. Soc. What do you wish to say? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον; [¶136] Str. That they do not possess this instrumental function. For they are not, like tools or instruments, made for the purpose of being causes of production, but exist for the preservation of that which has been produced. > Greek: ΞΕ. ὡς οὐκ ἔστι ταύτην τὴν δύναμιν ἔχον. οὐ γὰρ ἐπὶ γενέσεως αἰτίᾳ πήγνυται, καθάπερ ὄργανον, ἀλλʼ ἕνεκα τοῦ δημιουργηθέντος σωτηρίας. [¶137] Y. Soc. What is this class of possessions? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον; [¶138] Str. That very various class which is made with dry and wet materials and such as are wrought by fire and without fire; it is called collectively the class of receptacles; it is a very large class and has, so far as I can see, nothing at all to do with the art we are studying. > Greek: ΞΕ. τοῦτο ὃ δὴ ξηροῖς καὶ ὑγροῖς καὶ ἐμπύροις καὶ ἀπύροις παντοδαπὸν εἶδος ἐργασθὲν ἀγγεῖον [ὃ δὴ] μιᾷ κλήσει προσφθεγγόμεθα, καὶ μάλα γε συχνὸν εἶδος καὶ τῇ ζητουμένῃ γε, ὡς οἶμαι, προσῆκον οὐδὲν ἀτεχνῶς ἐπιστήμῃ. [¶139] Y. Soc. No, of course not. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; [¶140] Str. And there is a third very large class of possessions to be noticed, differing from these; it is found on land and on water, it wanders about and is stationary, it is honorable and without honor, but it has one name, because the whole class is always a seat for some one and exists to be sat upon. > Greek: ΞΕ. τούτων δὴ τρίτον ἕτερον εἶδος κτημάτων πάμπολυ κατοπτέον πεζὸν καὶ ἔνυδρον καὶ πολυπλανὲς καὶ ἀπλανὲς καὶ τίμιον καὶ ἄτιμον, ἓν δὲ ὄνομα ἔχον, διότι πᾶν ἕνεκά τινος ἐφέδρας ἐστί, θᾶκος ἀεί τινι γιγνόμενον. [¶141] Y. Soc. What is it? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον; [¶142] Str. We call it a vehicle, and it certainly is not at all the work of statesmanship, but much rather that of the arts of carpentry, pottery and bronze-working. > Greek: ΞΕ. ὄχημα αὐτό που λέγομεν, οὐ πάνυ πολιτικῆς ἔργον, ἀλλὰ μᾶλλον πολὺ τεκτονικῆς καὶ κεραμικῆς καὶ χαλκοτυπικῆς. [¶143] Y. Soc. I understand. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. μανθάνω. [¶144] Str. And is there a fourth class? Shall we say that there is one, differing from those three, one to which most of the things we have mentioned belong—all clothing, most arms, all circuit walls of earth or of stone, and countless other things? And since they are all made for defence, they may most rightly be called by the collective name of defence, and this may much more properly be considered for the most part the work of the art of building or of weaving than of statesmanship. > Greek: ΞΕ. τί δὲ τέταρτον; ἆρʼ ἕτερον εἶναι τούτων λεκτέον, ἐν ᾧ τὰ πλεῖστά ἐστι τῶν πάλαι ῥηθέντων, ἐσθής τε σύμπασα καὶ τῶν ὅπλων τὸ πολὺ καὶ τείχη πάντα θʼ ὅσα γήινα περιβλήματα καὶ λίθινα, καὶ μυρία ἕτερα; προβολῆς δὲ ἕνεκα συμπάντων αὐτῶν εἰργασμένων δικαιότατʼ ἂν ὅλον προσαγορεύοιτο πρόβλημα, καὶ πολλῷ μᾶλλον τέχνης οἰκοδομικῆς ἔργον καὶ ὑφαντικῆς τὸ πλεῖστον νομίζοιτʼ ἂν ὀρθότερον ἢ πολιτικῆς. [¶145] Y. Soc. Certainly. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. [¶146] Str. And should we care to make a fifth class, of ornamentation and painting and all the imitations created by the use of painting and music solely for our pleasure and properly included under one name? > Greek: ΞΕ. πέμπτον δὲ ἆρʼ ἂν ἐθέλοιμεν τὸ περὶ τὸν κόσμον καὶ γραφικὴν θεῖναι καὶ ὅσα ταύτῃ προσχρώμενα καὶ μουσικῇ μιμήματα τελεῖται, πρὸς τὰς ἡδονὰς μόνον ἡμῶν ἀπειργασμένα, δικαίως δʼ ἂν ὀνόματι περιληφθέντα ἑνί; [¶147] Y. Soc. What is its name? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ποίῳ; [¶148] Str. It is called by some such name as plaything. > Greek: ΞΕ. παίγνιόν πού τι λέγεται. [¶149] Y. Soc. To be sure. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τί μήν; [¶150] Str. So this one name will properly be applied to all the members of this class; for none of them is practised for any serious purpose, but all of them merely for play. > Greek: ΞΕ. τοῦτο τοίνυν τούτοις ἓν ὄνομα ἅπασι πρέψει προσαγορευθέν· οὐ γὰρ σπουδῆς οὐδὲν αὐτῶν χάριν, ἀλλὰ παιδιᾶς ἕνεκα πάντα δρᾶται. [¶151] Y. Soc. I understand that pretty well, too. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καὶ τοῦτο σχεδόν τι μανθάνω. [¶152] Str. And shall we not make a sixth class of that which furnishes to all these the materials of which and in which all the arts we have mentioned fashion their works, a very various class, the offspring of many other arts? > Greek: ΞΕ. τὸ δὲ πᾶσιν τούτοις σώματα παρέχον, ἐξ ὧν καὶ ἐν οἷς δημιουργοῦσιν ὁπόσαι τῶν τεχνῶν νῦν εἴρηνται, παντοδαπὸν εἶδος πολλῶν ἑτέρων τεχνῶν ἔκγονον ὄν, ἆρʼ οὐχ ἕκτον θήσομεν; [¶153] Y. Soc. What do you mean? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὸ ποῖον δὴ λέγεις; [¶154] Str. Gold and silver and all the products of the mines and all the materials which tree-felling and wood-cutting in general cut and provide for carpentry and basket-weaving; and then, too, the art of stripping the bark from plants and the leather-worker’s art which takes off the skins of animals, and all the other arts which have to do with such matters, and those that make corks and paper and cords and enable us to manufacture composite classes of things from kinds that are not composite. We call all this, as one class, the primary and simple possession of man, and it is in no way the work of the kingly science. > Greek: ΞΕ. χρυσόν τε καὶ ἄργυρον καὶ πάνθʼ ὁπόσα μεταλλεύεται καὶ ὅσα δρυοτομικὴ καὶ κουρὰ σύμπασα τέμνουσα παρέχει τεκτονικῇ καὶ πλεκτικῇ· καὶ ἔτι φλοιστικὴ φυτῶν τε καὶ ἐμψύχων δέρματα σωμάτων περιαιροῦσα σκυτοτομική, καὶ ὅσαι περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτά εἰσιν τέχναι, καὶ φελλῶν καὶ βύβλων καὶ δεσμῶν ἐργαστικαὶ παρέσχον δημιουργεῖν σύνθετα ἐκ μὴ συντιθεμένων εἴδη γενῶν. ἓν δὲ αὐτὸ προσαγορεύομεν πᾶν τὸ πρωτογενὲς ἀνθρώποις κτῆμα καὶ ἀσύνθετον καὶ βασιλικῆς ἐπιστήμης οὐδαμῶς ἔργον ὄν. [¶155] Y. Soc. Good. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. καλῶς. [¶156] Str. And property in food and all the things which, mingling parts of themselves with parts of the body, have any function of keeping it in health, we may say is the seventh class, and we will call it collectively our nourishment, unless we have some better name to give it. All this we can assign to the arts of husbandry, hunting, gymnastics, medicine, and cooking more properly than to that of statesmanship. > Greek: ΞΕ. τὴν δὴ τῆς τροφῆς κτῆσιν, καὶ ὅσα εἰς τὸ σῶμα συγκαταμειγνύμενα ἑαυτῶν μέρεσι μέρη σώματος εἰς τὸ θεραπεῦσαί τινα δύναμιν εἴληχε, λεκτέον ἕβδομον ὀνομάσαντας αὐτὸ σύμπαν ἡμῶν εἶναι τροφόν, εἰ μή τι κάλλιον ἔχομεν ἄλλο θέσθαι· γεωργικῇ δὲ καὶ θηρευτικῇ καὶ γυμναστικῇ καὶ ἰατρικῇ καὶ μαγειρικῇ πᾶν ὑποτιθέντες ὀρθότερον ἀποδώσομεν ἢ τῇ πολιτικῇ. [¶157] Y. Soc. Of course. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; [¶158] Str. Now I think I have in these seven classes mentioned nearly all kinds of property except tame animals. See: there was the primary possession, which ought in justice to have been placed first, and after this the instrument, receptacle, vehicle, defence, plaything, nourishment. Whatever we have omitted, unless some important thing has been overlooked, can find its place in one of those classes; for instance, the group of coins, seals, and stamps, for there is not among these any kinship such as to form a large class, but some of them can be made to fit into the class of ornaments, others into that of instruments, though the classification is somewhat forced. All property in tame animals, except slaves, is included in the art of herding, which has already been divided into parts. > Greek: ΞΕ. σχεδὸν τοίνυν ὅσα ἔχεται κτήσεως, πλὴν τῶν ἡμέρων ζῴων, ἐν τούτοις ἑπτὰ οἶμαι γένεσιν εἰρῆσθαι. σκόπει δέ· ἦν γὰρ δικαιότατα μὲν ἂν τεθὲν κατʼ ἀρχὰς τὸ πρωτογενὲς εἶδος, μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο ὄργανον, ἀγγεῖον, ὄχημα, πρόβλημα, παίγνιον, θρέμμα. ⟨ἃ⟩ παραλείπομεν δέ, εἴ τι μὴ μέγα λέληθεν, εἴς τι τούτων δυνατὸν ἁρμόττειν, οἷον ἡ τοῦ νομίσματος ἰδέα καὶ σφραγίδων καὶ παντὸς χαρακτῆρος. γένος τε γὰρ ἐν αὑτοῖς ταῦτα οὐδὲν ἔχει μέγα σύννομον, ἀλλὰ τὰ μὲν εἰς κόσμον, τὰ δὲ εἰς ὄργανα βίᾳ μέν, ὅμως δὲ πάντως ἑλκόμενα συμφωνήσει. τὰ δὲ περὶ ζῴων κτῆσιν τῶν ἡμέρων, πλὴν δούλων, ἡ πρότερον ἀγελαιοτροφικὴ διαμερισθεῖσα πάντʼ εἰληφυῖα ἀναφανεῖται. [¶159] Y. Soc. Yes quite true. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. [¶160] Str. There remains the class of slaves and servants in general, and here I prophesy that we shall find those who set up claims against the king for the very fabric of his art, just as the spinners and carders and the rest of whom we spoke advanced claims against the weavers a while ago. All the others, whom we called contingent causes, have been removed along with the works we just mentioned and have been separated from the activity of the king and the statesman. > Greek: ΞΕ. τὸ δὲ δὴ δούλων καὶ πάντων ὑπηρετῶν λοιπόν, ἐν οἷς που καὶ μαντεύομαι τοὺς περὶ αὐτὸ τὸ πλέγμα ἀμφισβητοῦντας τῷ βασιλεῖ καταφανεῖς γενήσεσθαι, καθάπερ τοῖς ὑφάνταις τότε τοὺς περὶ τὸ νήθειν τε καὶ ξαίνειν καὶ ὅσα ἄλλα εἴπομεν. οἱ δὲ ἄλλοι πάντες, ὡς συναίτιοι λεχθέντες, ἅμα τοῖς ἔργοις τοῖς νυνδὴ ῥηθεῖσιν ἀνήλωνται καὶ ἀπεχωρίσθησαν ἀπὸ βασιλικῆς τε καὶ πολιτικῆς πράξεως. [¶161] Y. Soc. That seems to be the case, at least. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. ἐοίκασι γοῦν. [¶162] Str. Come then, let us step up and look from close at hand at those who are left, that so we may know them more surely. > Greek: ΞΕ. ἴθι δὴ σκεψώμεθα τοὺς λοιποὺς προσελθόντες ἐγγύθεν, ἵνα αὐτοὺς εἰδῶμεν βεβαιότερον. [¶163] Y. Soc. Yes, that is what we should do. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν χρή. [¶164] Str. We shall find, then, that the greatest servants, when seen from near at hand, are in conduct and condition the opposite of that which we suspected. > Greek: ΞΕ. τοὺς μὲν δὴ μεγίστους ὑπηρέτας, ὡς ἐνθένδε ἰδεῖν, τοὐναντίον ἔχοντας εὑρίσκομεν οἷς ὑπωπτεύσαμεν ἐπιτήδευμα καὶ πάθος. [¶165] Y. Soc. Who are they? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τίνας; [¶166] Str. The bought servants, acquired by purchase, whom we can without question call slaves. They make no claim to any share in the kingly art. > Greek: ΞΕ. τοὺς ὠνητούς τε καὶ τῷ τρόπῳ τούτῳ κτητούς· οὓς ἀναμφισβητήτως δούλους ἔχομεν εἰπεῖν; ἥκιστα βασιλικῆς μεταποιουμένους τέχνης. [¶167] Y. Soc. Certainly not. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς δʼ οὔ; [¶168] Str. How about those free men who put themselves voluntarily in the position of servants of those whom we mentioned before? I mean the men who carry about and distribute among one another the productions of husbandry and the other arts, whether in the domestic marketplaces or by travelling from city to city by land or sea, exchanging money for wares or money for money, the men whom we call brokers, merchants, shipmasters, and peddlers; do they lay any claim to statesmanship? > Greek: ΞΕ. τί δέ; τῶν ἐλευθέρων ὅσοι τοῖς νυνδὴ ῥηθεῖσιν εἰς ὑπηρετικὴν ἑκόντες αὑτοὺς τάττουσι, τά τε γεωργίας καὶ τὰ τῶν ἄλλων τεχνῶν ἔργα διακομίζοντες ἐπʼ ἀλλήλους καὶ ἀνισοῦντες, οἱ μὲν κατʼ ἀγοράς, οἱ δὲ πόλιν ἐκ πόλεως ἀλλάττοντες κατὰ θάλατταν καὶ πεζῇ, νόμισμά τε πρὸς τὰ ἄλλα καὶ αὐτὸ πρὸς αὑτὸ διαμείβοντες, οὓς ἀργυραμοιβούς τε καὶ ἐμπόρους καὶ ναυκλήρους καὶ καπήλους ἐπωνομάκαμεν, μῶν τῆς πολιτικῆς ἀμφισβητήσουσί τι; [¶169] Y. Soc. Possibly to commercial statesmanship Str. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τάχʼ ἂν ἴσως τῆς γε τῶν ἐμπορευτικῶν. [¶170] But certainly we shall never find laborers, whom we see only too glad to serve anybody for hire, claiming a share in the kingly art. > Greek: ΞΕ. ἀλλʼ οὐ μὴν οὕς γε ὁρῶμεν μισθωτοὺς καὶ θῆτας πᾶσιν ἑτοιμότατα ὑπηρετοῦντας, μή ποτε βασιλικῆς μεταποιουμένους εὕρωμεν. [¶171] Y. Soc. Certainly not. > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. πῶς γάρ; [¶172] Str. But there are people who perform services of another kind. How about them? > Greek: ΞΕ. τί δὲ ἄρα τοὺς τὰ τοιάδε διακονοῦντας ἡμῖν ἑκάστοτε; [¶173] Y. Soc. What services and what men do you mean? > Greek: ΝΕ. ΣΩ. τὰ ποῖα εἶπες καὶ τίνας; [¶174] Str. The class of heralds and those who become by long practice skilled as clerks and other clever men who perform various services in connection with public offices. What shall we call them? > Greek: ΞΕ. ὧν τὸ κηρυκικὸν ἔθνος, ὅσοι τε περὶ γράμματα σοφοὶ γίγνονται πολλάκις ὑπηρετήσαντες, καὶ πόλλʼ ἄττα ἕτερα περὶ τὰς ἀρχὰς διαπονεῖσθαί τινες ἕτεροι πάνδεινοι, τί τούτους αὖ λέξομεν;