--- title: "Theages · Θεάγης" author: "Plato" translator: "Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb" languages: [grc, en] shelf: "Philosophy" section: 1 of 1 url: https://scriptura.si/works/plato-theages/1/ cite: "Plato, tr. Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb, Theages · Θεάγης, section 1. Scriptura (scriptura.si), https://scriptura.si/works/plato-theages/1/" --- # Theages · Θεάγης *Plato, tr. Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb* A father asks Socrates to teach his son, and Socrates speaks of his divine sign. > Greek: ed. John Burnet, from the Perseus Digital Library (canonical-greekLit, tlg0059.tlg017, CC BY-SA 4.0). > English: Walter Rangeley Maitland Lamb, from the Perseus Digital Library (tlg0059.tlg017.perseus-eng2). Notes are not included. > Rows follow the references the two texts share (line numbers), cut where both reach the end of a sentence. ## 1. 1–144 Source: https://scriptura.si/works/plato-theages/1/ · cite a paragraph as https://scriptura.si/works/plato-theages/1/#p-N [¶0] Dem. Socrates, I was wanting to have some private talk with you, if you had time to spare; even if there is some demand, which is not particularly important, on your time, do spare some, nevertheless, for me. > Greek: ΔΗ. ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐδεόμην ἄττα σοι ἰδιολογήσασθαι, εἰ σχολή· κἂν εἰ ἀσχολία δὲ μὴ πάνυ τις μεγάλη, ὅμως ἐμοῦ ἕνεκα ποίησαι σχολήν. [¶1] Soc. Why, in any case I happen to have time to spare, and for you, moreover, I have plenty. Well, you are free to say whatever you wish. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ καὶ ἄλλως τυγχάνω σχολάζων, καὶ δὴ σοῦ γε ἕνεκα καὶ πάνυ. ἀλλʼ εἴ τι βούλει λέγειν, ἔξεστιν. [¶2] Dem. Then do you mind if we step aside here from the street into the portico of Zeus the Liberator? > Greek: ΔΗ. βούλει οὖν δεῦρο εἰς τὴν τοῦ Διὸς τοῦ ἐλευθερίου στοὰν ἐκποδὼν ἀποχωρήσωμεν; [¶3] Soc. As you think best. > Greek: ΣΩ. εἰ σοὶ δοκεῖ. [¶4] Dem. Let us go, then. Socrates, it would seem that all growths follow the same course, both those that grow from the earth, and the animals, including man. In regard to the plants, as you know, we who cultivate the earth find it the easiest part of our work to make all our preparations that are needed before planting, and to do the planting itself; but when the plant begins to grow, thenceforward we have a great deal of difficult and vexatious business in tending the new growth. Such, it seems, is also the case in regard to men: I take my own concerns as evidence for judging of the rest. For indeed I have found the planting, or the procreation—whichever one ought to call it—of this son of mine the easiest thing in the world; but his upbringing has been vexatious and a constant source of alarm, so great are my fears for him. Among the many instances that I could mention, the desire which occupies him at the moment is a thing that especially alarms me: for it is not an ill-bred desire, but a dangerous one, since here we have him, Socrates, as he says, desiring to become wise. My opinion is that some of his fellow-townsmen, about his own age, who pay visits to the city, excite him with accounts of certain discussions they have heard there; and in his envy of these he has long been pestering me with the demand that I should take due thought for his needs, and pay fees to some sophist or other who will make him wise. Now I do not mind so much about the fees, but I believe he is running into no slight danger where he is hastening. > Greek: ΔΗ. ἴωμεν δή. ὦ Σώκρατες, πάντα τὰ φυτὰ κινδυνεύει τὸν αὐτὸν τρόπον ἔχειν, καὶ τὰ ἐκ τῆς γῆς φυόμενα καὶ τὰ ζῷα τά τε ἄλλα καὶ ἅνθρωπος. καὶ γὰρ ἐν τοῖς φυτοῖς ῥᾷστον ἡμῖν τοῦτο γίγνεται, ὅσοι τὴν γῆν γεωργοῦμεν, τὸ παρασκευάσασθαι πάντα τὰ πρὸ τοῦ φυτεύειν καὶ αὐτὸ τὸ φυτεῦσαι· ἐπειδὰν δὲ τὸ φυτευθὲν βιῷ, μετὰ τοῦτο θεραπεία τοῦ φύντος καὶ πολλὴ καὶ χαλεπὴ καὶ δύσκολος γίγνεται. οὕτω δὲ ἔχειν ἔοικε καὶ τὸ περὶ τῶν ἀνθρώπων· ἀπὸ τῶν ἐμαυτοῦ ἐγὼ πραγμάτων τεκμαίρομαι καὶ ἐς τἆλλα. καὶ γὰρ ἐμοὶ ἡ τοῦ ὑέος τουτουΐ, εἴτε φυτείαν εἴτε παιδοποιίαν δεῖ αὐτὴν ὀνομάζειν, πάντων ῥᾴστη γέγονεν, ἡ δὲ τροφὴ δύσκολός τε καὶ ἀεὶ ἐν φόβῳ περὶ αὐτοῦ δεδιότι. τὰ μὲν οὖν ἄλλα πολλὰ ἂν εἴη λέγειν, ἡ δὲ νῦν παροῦσα ἐπιθυμία τούτῳ πάνυ με φοβεῖ—ἔστι μὲν γὰρ οὐκ ἀγεννής, σφαλερὰ δέ—ἐπιθυμεῖ γὰρ δὴ οὗτος ἡμῖν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὥς φησι, σοφὸς γενέσθαι. δοκῶ γάρ μοι, τῶν ἡλικιωτῶν τινες αὐτοῦ καὶ δημοτῶν, εἰς τὸ ἄστυ καταβαίνοντες, λόγους τινὰς ἀπομνημονεύοντες διαταράττουσιν αὐτόν, οὓς ἐζήλωκεν καὶ πάλαι μοι πράγματα παρέχει, ἀξιῶν ἐπιμεληθῆναί με ἑαυτοῦ καὶ χρήματα τελέσαι τινὶ τῶν σοφιστῶν, ὅστις αὐτὸν σοφὸν ποιήσει. ἐμοὶ δὲ τῶν μὲν χρημάτων καὶ ἔλαττον μέλει, ἡγοῦμαι δὲ τοῦτον οὐκ εἰς μικρὸν κίνδυνον ἰέναι οἷ σπεύδει. [¶5] Dem. I did for a time restrain him with good advice; but since I am no longer able to do so, I believe my best course is to comply with his request, in order that he may not resort, perchance, behind my back to somebody who will corrupt him. So I have come now on this very business of placing this youth with one of these sophists, or purveyors of wisdom, as they are held to be. It is a happy chance, therefore, that has thrown you in our way, as I should be particularly glad, with this plan of action in my mind, to ask your advice. Come, if you have any advice to give on what you have heard from me, you not only may, but should, give it. > Greek: ΔΗ. τέως μὲν οὖν αὐτὸν κατεῖχον παραμυθούμενος· ἐπειδὴ δὲ οὐκέτι οἷός τέ εἰμι, ἡγοῦμαι κράτιστον εἶναι πείθεσθαι αὐτῷ, ἵνα μὴ πολλάκις ἄνευ ἐμοῦ συγγενόμενός τῳ διαφθαρῇ. νῦν οὖν ἥκω ἐπʼ αὐτὰ ταῦτα, ἵνα τῳ τούτων τῶν σοφιστῶν δοκούντων εἶναι συστήσω τουτονί. σὺ οὖν ἡμῖν εἰς καλὸν παρεφάνης, ᾧ ἂν ἐγὼ μάλιστα ἐβουλόμην περὶ τῶν τοιούτων μέλλων πράξειν συμβουλεύσασθαι. ἀλλʼ εἴ τι ἔχεις συμβουλεύειν ἐξ ὧν ἐμοῦ ἀκήκοας, ἔξεστί τε καὶ χρή. [¶6] Soc. Well, you know, Demodocus, they do say that advice is a holy thing. And so, if ever it is to be accounted holy, it must be in this instance, in which you now seek it. For there is no more divine matter on which a mortal could take counsel than the education either of himself or of his relations. Now, first of all, let you and me come to an agreement as to what we suppose that this thing can be, on which we are taking counsel; for it may happen that I conceive it to be one thing, and you another, and then when we have proceeded some little way in our conference, we may perceive how ridiculous we are, I the adviser and you the advised, in having no common ground in our notions. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὲν δή, ὦ Δημόδοκε, καὶ λέγεταί γε συμβουλὴ ἱερὸν χρῆμα εἶναι. εἴπερ οὖν καὶ ἄλλη ἡτισοῦν ἐστιν ἱερά, καὶ αὕτη ἂν εἴη περὶ ἧς σὺ νῦν συμβουλεύῃ· οὐ γὰρ ἔστι περὶ ὅτου θειοτέρου ἂν ἄνθρωπος βουλεύσαιτο ἢ περὶ παιδείας καὶ αὑτοῦ καὶ τῶν αὑτοῦ οἰκείων. πρῶτον μὲν οὖν ἐγώ τε καὶ σὺ συνομολογήσωμεν τί ποτε οἰόμεθα τοῦτο εἶναι περὶ οὗ βουλευόμεθα· μὴ γὰρ πολλάκις ἐγὼ μὲν ἄλλο τι αὐτὸ ὑπολαμβάνω, σὺ δὲ ἄλλο, κἄπειτα πόρρω που τῆς συνουσίας αἰσθώμεθα γελοῖοι ὄντες, ἐγώ τε ὁ συμβουλεύων καὶ σὺ ὁ συμβουλευόμενος, μηδὲν τῶν αὐτῶν ἡγούμενοι. [¶7] Dem. Why, I think you are right there, Socrates, and we should do as you suggest. > Greek: ΔΗ. ἀλλά μοι δοκεῖς ὀρθῶς λέγειν, ὦ Σώκρατες, καὶ ποιεῖν χρὴ οὕτω. [¶8] Soc. Yes, I am right, but yet not entirely, because I have a slight change to make. For it occurs to me that this youngster may not be desiring the thing that we suppose him to desire, but something else, and there again we may be still more absurdly taking counsel on some other thing. Hence our most proper course, it seems to me, is to begin with the youth himself, and inquire of him what it actually is that he desires. > Greek: ΣΩ. καὶ λέγω γε ὀρθῶς, οὐ μέντοι παντάπασί γε· σμικρὸν γάρ τι μετατίθεμαι. ἐννοῶ γὰρ μὴ καὶ ὁ μειρακίσκος οὗτος οὐ τούτου ἐπιθυμεῖ οὗ ἡμεῖς αὐτὸν οἰόμεθα ἐπιθυμεῖν ἀλλʼ ἑτέρου, εἶτʼ αὖ ἡμεῖς ἔτι ἀτοπώτεροι ὦμεν περὶ ἄλλου του βουλευόμενοι. ὀρθότατον οὖν μοι δοκεῖ εἶναι ἀπʼ αὐτοῦ τούτου ἄρχεσθαι, διαπυνθανομένους ὅτι καὶ ἔστιν οὗ ἐπιθυμεῖ. [¶9] Dem. It does rather look, in fact, as though our best way would be thus, as you suggest. > Greek: ΔΗ. κινδυνεύει γοῦν οὕτω βέλτιστον εἶναι ὡς σὺ λέγεις. [¶10] Soc. Then tell me, what is the young person’s goodly name: how are we to address him? > Greek: ΣΩ. εἰπὲ δή μοι, τί καλὸν ὄνομα τῷ νεανίσκῳ; τί αὐτὸν προσαγορεύωμεν; [¶11] Dem. Theages is his name, Socrates. > Greek: ΔΗ. Θεάγης ὄνομα τούτῳ, ὦ Σώκρατες. [¶12] Soc. Goodly is the name, Demodocus, and holy-sounding, that you have bestowed on your son. Tell me, then, Theages, do you say you desire to become wise, and do you require your father here to find out a school of some man who is qualified to make you wise? > Greek: ΣΩ. καλόν γε, ὦ Δημόδοκε, τῷ ὑεῖ τὸ ὄνομα ἔθου καὶ ἱεροπρεπές. εἰπὲ δὴ ἡμῖν, ὦ Θέαγες, ἐπιθυμεῖν φῂς σοφὸς γενέσθαι, καὶ ἀξιοῖς σου τὸν πατέρα τόνδε ἐξευρεῖν ἀνδρός τινος συνουσίαν τοιούτου ὅστις σε σοφὸν ποιήσει; [¶13] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶14] Soc. And which sort of man do you call wise, those who have knowledge of such and such a thing, whatever it may be, or those who have not? > Greek: ΣΩ. σοφοὺς δὲ καλεῖς πότερον τοὺς ἐπιστήμονας, περὶ ὅτου ἂν ἐπιστήμονες ὦσιν, ἢ τοὺς μή; [¶15] The. Those who have knowledge, I say. > Greek: ΘΕ. τοὺς ἐπιστήμονας ἔγωγε. [¶16] Soc. Well now, has not your father taught and educated you in the subjects which form the education of everyone else here—all the sons of noble and honorable fathers—in letters, I mean, and harping and wrestling and the other sorts of contest? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν; οὐκ ἐδιδάξατό σε ὁ πατὴρ καὶ ἐπαίδευσεν ἅπερ ἐνθάδε οἱ ἄλλοι πεπαίδευνται, οἱ τῶν καλῶν κἀγαθῶν πατέρων ὑεῖς, οἷον γράμματά τε καὶ κιθαρίζειν καὶ παλαίειν καὶ τὴν ἄλλην ἀγωνίαν; [¶17] The. Yes, he has. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἐμέ γε. [¶18] Soc. And you think you are still lacking in some knowledge which it behoves your father to provide for you? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔτι οὖν οἴει τινὸς ἐπιστήμης ἐλλείπειν, ἧς προσήκει ὑπὲρ σοῦ τὸν πατέρα ἐπιμεληθῆναι; [¶19] The. I do Soc. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἔγωγε. [¶20] What knowledge is it? Tell us on our side, that we may oblige you. > Greek: ΣΩ. τίς ἐστιν αὕτη; εἰπὲ καὶ ἡμῖν, ἵνα σοι χαρισώμεθα. [¶21] The. He knows it, as well as I, Socrates, since I have often told him; only he says this to you of set purpose, making as if he did not know what I desire. For he assails me too with other statements of the same sort, and refuses to place me with any instructor. > Greek: ΘΕ. οἶδεν καὶ οὗτος, ὦ Σώκρατες—ἐπεὶ πολλάκις ἐγὼ αὐτῷ εἴρηκα—ἀλλὰ ταῦτα ἐξεπίτηδες πρὸς σὲ λέγει, ὡς δὴ οὐκ εἰδὼς οὗ ἐγὼ ἐπιθυμῶ· τοιαῦτα γὰρ ἕτερα καὶ πρὸς ἐμὲ μάχεταί τε καὶ οὐκ ἐθέλει με οὐδενὶ συστῆσαι. [¶22] Soc. Well, what you said to him before was spoken, as it were, without witnesses; but now you shall take me as a witness, and declare before me what is this wisdom that you desire. Come now; suppose you desired the wisdom whereby men steer a ship, and I happened to put this further question to you: Theages, what wisdom is it that you lack, when you blame your father for refusing to place you with people who would enable you to become wise? What answer would you have given me? What wisdom would you name? The steersman’s art, would you not? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ τὰ μὲν ἔμπροσθέν σοι ἦν πρὸς τοῦτον ῥηθέντα ὥσπερ ἄνευ μαρτύρων λεγόμενα· νυνὶ δὲ ἐμὲ ποίησαι μάρτυρα, καὶ ἐναντίον ἐμοῦ κάτειπε τίς ἐστιν αὕτη ἡ σοφία ἧς ἐπιθυμεῖς. φέρε γάρ, εἰ ἐπεθύμεις ταύτης ᾗ οἱ ἄνθρωποι τὰ πλοῖα κυβερνῶσιν, καὶ ἐγώ σε ἐτύγχανον ἀνερωτῶν· ὦ Θέαγες, τίνος ἐνδεὴς ὢν σοφίας μέμφῃ τῷ πατρὶ ὅτι οὐκ ἐθέλει σε συνιστάναι παρʼ ὧν ἂν σὺ σοφὸς γένοιο; τί ἄν μοι ἀπεκρίνω; τίνα αὐτὴν εἶναι; ἆρα οὐ κυβερνητικήν; [¶23] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶24] Soc. And if a desire to be wise in the wisdom whereby they steer chariots led you to blame your father, and I asked what wisdom this was, what would you name in reply? The charioteer’s art, would you not? > Greek: ΣΩ. εἰ δὲ ἐπιθυμῶν ταύτην τὴν σοφίαν εἶναι σοφὸς ᾗ τὰ ἅρματα κυβερνῶσιν εἶτʼ ἐμέμφου τῷ πατρί, ἐμοῦ αὖ ἐρωτῶντος τίς ἐστιν αὕτη ἡ σοφία, τίνα ἂν ἀπεκρίνω αὐτὴν εἶναι; ἆρʼ οὐχὶ ἡνιοχικήν; [¶25] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶26] Soc. And is that which you happen to be desiring now a nameless one, or has it a name? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἧς δὲ δὴ νῦν τυγχάνεις ἐπιθυμῶν, πότερον ἀνώνυμός τίς ἐστιν ἢ ἔχει ὄνομα; [¶27] The. I should say it has a name. > Greek: ΘΕ. οἶμαι ἔγωγε ἔχειν. [¶28] Soc. Now do you know it, though not its name, or do you know its name as well? > Greek: ΣΩ. πότερον οὖν αὐτὴν μὲν οἶσθα, οὐ μέντοι τό γε ὄνομα, ἢ καὶ τὸ ὄνομα; [¶29] The. I know its name as well. > Greek: ΘΕ. καὶ τὸ ὄνομα ἔγωγε. [¶30] Soc. Then what is it? Tell me. > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν ἔστιν; εἰπέ. [¶31] The. What other name, Socrates, can one give it but wisdom? > Greek: ΘΕ. τί δὲ ἄλλο, ὦ Σώκρατες, αὐτῇ ὄνομά τις φαίη ἂν εἶναι ἀλλʼ ἢ σοφίαν; [¶32] Soc. And the driver’s art too is wisdom? Or do you think it is ignorance? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἡ ἡνιοχεία σοφία ἐστίν; ἢ ἀμαθία δοκεῖ σοι εἶναι; [¶33] The. I do not. > Greek: ΘΕ. οὐκ ἔμοιγε. [¶34] Soc. You call it wisdom? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ σοφία; [¶35] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶36] Soc. What use do we make of it? Is it not the art whereby we know how to govern a team of horses? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἧι τί χρώμεθα; οὐχ ᾗ ἵππων ἐπιστάμεθα ζεύγους ἄρχειν; [¶37] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶38] Soc. And the steersman’s art too is wisdom? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἡ κυβερνητικὴ σοφία ἐστίν; [¶39] The. I think so. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. [¶40] Soc. Is not this the art whereby we know how to govern ships? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὐχ αὕτη ᾗ πλοίων ἐπιστάμεθα ἄρχειν; [¶41] The. Yes, it is. > Greek: ΘΕ. αὕτη μὲν οὖν. [¶42] Soc. And the wisdom that you so desire, what is it? That whereby we know how to govern whom? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἧς δὲ δὴ σὺ ἐπιθυμεῖς ἡ σοφία τίς ἐστιν; ᾗ τίνος ἐπιστάμεθα ἄρχειν; [¶43] The. To govern men, I imagine. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἐμοὶ μὲν δοκεῖ, ᾗ τῶν ἀνθρώπων. [¶44] Soc. Sick men, do you mean? > Greek: ΣΩ. μῶν ᾗ τῶν καμνόντων; [¶45] The. Oh, no. > Greek: ΘΕ. οὐ δῆτα. [¶46] Soc. For that is medicine, is it not? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἰατρικὴ γὰρ αὕτη ἐστίν· ἦ γάρ; [¶47] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶48] Soc. Well, that whereby we know how to govern the singers in a chorus? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ᾗ τῶν ᾀδόντων ἐπιστάμεθα ἐν τοῖς χοροῖς ἄρχειν; [¶49] The. No. > Greek: ΘΕ. οὔ. [¶50] Soc. For that is music? > Greek: ΣΩ. μουσικὴ γὰρ αὕτη γε; [¶51] The. To be sure. > Greek: ΘΕ. πάνυ γε. [¶52] Soc. Well, that whereby we know how to govern men in gymnastic training? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ᾗ τῶν γυμναζομένων ἐπιστάμεθα ἄρχειν; [¶53] The. No. > Greek: ΘΕ. οὔ. [¶54] Soc. For that is gymnastics? > Greek: ΣΩ. γυμναστικὴ γὰρ αὕτη γε; [¶55] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶56] Soc. Well, to govern people who do what? Endeavor your best to speak, as I did to you at the beginning. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ᾗ τῶν τί ποιούντων; προθυμοῦ εἰπεῖν ὥσπερ ἐγὼ σοὶ τὰ ἔμπροσθεν. [¶57] The. To govern the people in the city, I imagine. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἧι τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει, ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. [¶58] Soc. And are the sick people also in the city? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἐν τῇ πόλει εἰσὶν καὶ οἱ κάμνοντες; [¶59] The. Yes, but I mean not these only, but all the rest who are in the city besides. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί, ἀλλʼ οὐ τούτων λέγω μόνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ τῶν ἄλλων τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει. [¶60] Soc. Do I understand what art it is that you mean? For you strike me as meaning, not that whereby we know how to govern reapers and harvesters and planters and sowers and threshers, for it is the farmer’s art whereby we govern these, is it not? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρά γε μανθάνω ἣν λέγεις τέχνην; δοκεῖς γάρ μοι λέγειν οὐχ ᾗ τῶν θεριζόντων ἐπιστάμεθα ἄρχειν καὶ τρυγώντων καὶ τῶν φυτευόντων καὶ σπειρόντων καὶ ἁλοώντων· αὕτη μὲν γὰρ γεωργική, ᾗ τούτων ἄρχομεν. ἦ γάρ; [¶61] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶62] Soc. Nor, I suppose, do you mean that whereby we know how to govern sawyers and borers and planers and turners, as a class together; for is not that carpentry? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐδέ γε οἶμαι ᾗ τῶν πριζόντων καὶ τρυπώντων καὶ ξεόντων καὶ τορνευόντων συμπάντων ἐπιστάμεθα ἄρχειν, οὐ ταύτην λέγεις· αὕτη μὲν γὰρ οὐ τεκτονική; [¶63] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶64] Soc. But perhaps it is that whereby we govern, not only all these, but farmers themselves also, and carpenters, and all craftsmen and ordinary people, whether men or women: that, perhaps, is the wisdom you mean. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ἴσως ᾗ τούτων τε πάντων καὶ αὐτῶν τῶν γεωργῶν καὶ τῶν τεκτόνων καὶ τῶν δημιουργῶν ἁπάντων καὶ τῶν ἰδιωτῶν καὶ τῶν γυναικῶν καὶ ἀνδρῶν, ταύτην ἴσως λέγεις τὴν σοφίαν. [¶65] The. That, Socrates, is what I have been intending to mean all the time. > Greek: ΘΕ. ταύτην πάλαι, ὦ Σώκρατες, βούλομαι λέγειν. [¶66] Soc. Then can you tell me whether Aegisthus, who slew Agamemnon in Argos, governed all these people that you mean craftsmen and ordinary people, both men and women, or some other persons? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔχεις οὖν εἰπεῖν, Αἴγισθος ὁ Ἀγαμέμνονα ἀποκτείνας ἐν Ἄργει ἆρα τούτων ἦρχεν ὧν σὺ λέγεις, τῶν τε δημιουργῶν καὶ ἰδιωτῶν καὶ ἀνδρῶν καὶ γυναικῶν συμπάντων, ἢ ἄλλων τινῶν; [¶67] The. No, just those. > Greek: ΘΕ. οὔκ, ἀλλὰ τούτων. [¶68] Soc. Well now, did not Peleus, son of Aeacus, govern these same people in Phthia? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δὲ δή; Πηλεὺς ὁ Αἰακοῦ ἐν Φθίᾳ οὐ τῶν αὐτῶν τούτων ἦρχεν; [¶69] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶70] Soc. And have you ever heard of Periander, son of Cypselus, and how he governed at Corinth? > Greek: ΣΩ. Περίανδρον δὲ τὸν Κυψέλου ἄρχοντα ἐν Κορίνθῳ ἤδη ἀκήκοας γενέσθαι; [¶71] The. I have. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἔγωγε. [¶72] Soc. Did he not govern these same people in his city? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐ τῶν αὐτῶν τούτων ἄρχοντα ἐν τῇ αὑτοῦ πόλει; [¶73] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶74] Soc. Or again, do you not consider that Archelaus, son of Perdiccas, who governed recently in Macedonia, governed these same people? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δὲ Ἀρχέλαον τὸν Περδίκκου, τὸν νεωστὶ τοῦτον ἄρχοντα ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ; οὐ τῶν αὐτῶν ἡγῇ τούτων ἄρχειν; [¶75] The. I do. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἔγωγε. [¶76] Soc. And who do you think were governed by Hippias, son of Peisistratus, who governed in this city? Were they not these people? > Greek: ΣΩ. Ἱππίαν δὲ τὸν Πεισιστράτου ἐν τῇδε τῇ πόλει ἄρξαντα τίνων οἴει ἄρξαι; οὐ τούτων; [¶77] The. To be sure they were. > Greek: ΘΕ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ; [¶78] Soc. Now, can you tell me what appellation is given to Bacis and Sibyl and our native Amphilytus? > Greek: ΣΩ. εἴποις ἂν οὖν μοι τίνα ἐπωνυμίαν ἔχει Βάκις τε καὶ Σίβυλλα καὶ ὁ ἡμεδαπὸς Ἀμφίλυτος; [¶79] The. Why, soothsayers, of course, Socrates. > Greek: ΘΕ. τίνα γὰρ ἄλλην, ὦ Σώκρατες, πλήν γε χρησμῳδοί; [¶80] Soc. That is correct. But try to answer me in that way regarding those others—Hippias and Periander: what appellation is given them on account of their government? > Greek: ΣΩ. ὀρθῶς λέγεις. ἀλλὰ καὶ τούσδε μοι οὕτω πειρῶ ἀποκρίνασθαι, τίνα ἐπωνυμίαν ἔχει Ἱππίας καὶ Περίανδρος διὰ τὴν αὐτὴν ἀρχήν; [¶81] The. Despots, I suppose; it must be that. > Greek: ΘΕ. οἶμαι μὲν τύραννοι· τί γὰρ ἄλλο; [¶82] Soc. And when a man desires to govern the whole of the people in his city, he desires the same government as those did—despotism, and to be a despot? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ὅστις ἐπιθυμεῖ τῶν ἀνθρώπων τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει συμπάντων ἄρχειν, τῆς αὐτῆς ἀρχῆς τούτοις ἐπιθυμεῖ, τυραννικῆς, καὶ τύραννος εἶναι; [¶83] The. Apparently. > Greek: ΘΕ. φαίνεται. [¶84] Soc. And it is this that you say you desire? > Greek: ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ταύτης ἐπιθυμεῖν σὺ φῄς; [¶85] The. It seems so, from what I have said. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἔοικέν γε ἐξ ὧν ἐγὼ εἶπον. [¶86] Soc. You scoundrel! So you were desiring to govern us, all the time that you were blaming your father for not sending you to some seminary of despots! And you, Demodocus, are you not ashamed of having known all the time what he is desiring, and though you could have sent him where you would have made him an expert in the wisdom which he desires, actually grudging it to him and refusing to send him? But now, look here, as he has declared against you in my presence, shall you and I consult together on the question of whose school we shall send him to, and whose classes will help him to become a wise despot? > Greek: ΣΩ. ὦ μιαρέ, τυραννεῖν ἄρα ἡμῶν ἐπιθυμῶν πάλαι ἐμέμφου τῷ πατρὶ ὅτι σε οὐκ ἔπεμπεν εἰς [διδασκάλου] τυραννοδιδασκάλου τινός; καὶ σύ, ὦ Δημόδοκε, οὐκ αἰσχύνῃ πάλαι εἰδὼς οὗ ἐπιθυμεῖ οὗτος, καὶ ἔχων ὅθι πέμψας αὐτὸν δημιουργὸν ἂν ἐποίησας τῆς σοφίας ἧς ἐπιθυμεῖ, ἔπειτα φθονεῖς τε αὐτῷ καὶ οὐκ ἐθέλεις πέμπειν; ἀλλὰ νῦν—ὁρᾷς; — ἐπειδὴ ἐναντίον ἐμοῦ κατείρηκέ σου, κοινῇ βουλευώμεθα ἐγώ τε καὶ σὺ ἐς τίνος ἂν αὐτὸν πέμποιμεν καὶ διὰ τὴν τίνος συνουσίαν σοφὸς ἂν γένοιτο τύραννος; [¶87] Dem. Yes, in faith, Socrates, let us certainly consult, as I feel this is a matter on which no slight counsel is needed. > Greek: ΔΗ. ναὶ μὰ Δία, ὦ Σώκρατες, βουλευώμεθα δῆτα, ὡς δοκεῖ γέ μοι βουλῆς δεῖν περὶ τούτου οὐ φαύλης. [¶88] Soc. By and by, my good sir. Let us first cross-examine him thoroughly. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔασον, ὠγαθέ. διαπυθώμεθα αὐτοῦ πρῶτον ἱκανῶς. [¶89] Dem. Examine him then. > Greek: ΔΗ. πυνθάνου δή. [¶90] Soc. Well now, what if we called in Euripides to our aid, Theages? For you know Euripides says: > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν ἂν εἰ Εὐριπίδῃ τι προσχρησαίμεθα, ὦ Θέαγες; Εὐριπίδης γάρ πού φησιν— σοφοὶ τύραννοι τῶν σοφῶν συνουσίᾳ· [¶91] Despots are wise by converse with the wise. Now, if someone should ask Euripides: Euripides, in what are these men wise, by whose converse you say that despots are wise? I mean, suppose he had said: > Greek: εἰ οὖν ἔροιτό τις τὸν Εὐριπίδην· ὦ Εὐριπίδη, τῶν τί σοφῶν συνουσίᾳ φῂς σοφοὺς εἶναι τοὺς τυράννους; ὥσπερ ἂν εἰ εἰπόντα— σοφοὶ γεωργοὶ τῶν σοφῶν συνουσίᾳ, ἠρόμεθα τῶν τί σοφῶν; [¶92] Farmers are wise by converse with the wise, and we had asked him,—Wise in what?—what answer would he have given us? Surely none other than,—In farming. > Greek: τί ἂν ἡμῖν ἀπεκρίνατο; ἆρʼ ἂν ἄλλο τι ἢ τῶν τὰ γεωργικά; [¶93] The. That, and none other. > Greek: ΘΕ. οὔκ, ἀλλὰ τοῦτο. [¶94] Soc. Or again, if he had said: Piemen are wise by converse with the wise, and we had asked him, Wise in what?—what answer would he have given us? He would have said,—In the pie-making business,—would he not? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δὲ εἰ εἶπε— σοφοὶ μάγειροι τῶν σοφῶν συνουσίᾳ, εἰ ἠρόμεθα· τῶν τί σοφῶν; τί ἂν ἡμῖν ἀπεκρίνατο; οὐχ ὅτι τῶν μαγείρων; [¶95] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶96] Soc. Or again, if he had said Wrestlers are wise by converse with the wise, and we had asked him, Wise in what?—would he not reply,— In wrestling? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δʼ εἰ— σοφοὶ παλαισταὶ τῶν σοφῶν συνουσίᾳ εἶπεν, εἰ ἠρόμεθα· τῶν τί σοφῶν; ἆρα οὐκ ἂν τῶν παλαίειν ἔφη; [¶97] The. Yes. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναί. [¶98] Soc. But as he said: Despots are wise by converse with the wise, and we ask him,—In what do you mean that the latter are wise, Euripides?—what will he reply? What sort of subjects will he mention here? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἐπειδὴ δὲ εἶπε— σοφοὶ τύραννοι τῶν σοφῶν συνουσίᾳ, ἡμῶν ἐρωτώντων· τῶν τί σοφῶν λέγεις, ὦ Εὐριπίδη; τί ἂν φαίη; ποῖα ἂν εἶναι ταῦτα; [¶99] The. Why, upon my word, I for my part do not know. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἀλλὰ μὰ Δίʼ οὐκ οἶδʼ ἔγωγε. [¶100] Soc. Well, do you mind if I tell you? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ βούλει ἐγώ σοι εἴπω; [¶101] The. If you do not mind. > Greek: ΘΕ. εἰ σὺ βούλει. [¶102] Soc. They are the same subjects that Anacreon said Callicrite understood; or do you not know the ode? > Greek: ΣΩ. ταῦτʼ ἐστὶν ἅπερ ἔφη Ἀνακρέων τὴν Καλλικρίτην ἐπίστασθαι· ἢ οὐκ οἶσθα τὸ ᾆσμα; [¶103] The. I do. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἔγωγε. [¶104] Soc. Well then, do you desire to partake in some instruction of that sort from any man who is a fellow-craftsman of Callicrite, daughter of Cyane, and knows all about despotism as she did, according to the poet, in order that you may become a despot over us and our city? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν; τοιαύτης τινὸς καὶ σὺ συνουσίας ἐπιθυμεῖς ἀνδρὸς ὅστις τυγχάνει ὁμότεχνος ὢν Καλλικρίτῃ τῇ Κυάνης καὶ ἐπίσταται τυραννικά, ὥσπερ ἐκείνην ἔφη ὁ ποιητής, ἵνα καὶ σὺ ἡμῖν τύραννος γένῃ καὶ τῇ πόλει; [¶105] The. You are joking all this time, Socrates, and making fun of me. > Greek: ΘΕ. πάλαι, ὦ Σώκρατες, σκώπτεις καὶ παίζεις πρός με. [¶106] Soc. Why, do you not say that you desire that wisdom which will enable you to govern all the citizens? And in doing that, will you be anything else but a despot? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δέ; οὐ ταύτης φῂς τῆς σοφίας ἐπιθυμεῖν ᾗ πάντων ἂν τῶν πολιτῶν ἄρχοις; τοῦτο δὲ ποιῶν ἄλλο τι ἢ τύραννος ἂν εἴης; [¶107] The. I should indeed pray, I imagine, that I might become a despot, if possible, over all men, and failing that, over as many as might be; so would you, I imagine, and everybody else besides: nay, even more, I daresay, that I might become a god; but I did not say I desired that. > Greek: ΘΕ. εὐξαίμην μὲν ἂν οἶμαι ἔγωγε τύραννος γενέσθαι, μάλιστα μὲν πάντων ἀνθρώπων, εἰ δὲ μή, ὡς πλείστων· καὶ σύ γʼ ἂν οἶμαι καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι πάντες ἄνθρωποι—ἔτι δέ γε ἴσως μᾶλλον θεὸς γενέσθαι—ἀλλʼ οὐ τούτου ἔλεγον ἐπιθυμεῖν. [¶108] Soc. Well, what on earth then is it that you do desire? Do you not say you desire to govern the citizens? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ τί δή ἐστί ποτε οὗ ἐπιθυμεῖς; οὐ τῶν πολιτῶν φῂς ἄρχειν ἐπιθυμεῖν; [¶109] The. Yes, but not by force, or as despots do, but with their consent, as is done by all the other men of importance in the state. > Greek: ΘΕ. οὐ βίᾳ γε οὐδʼ ὥσπερ οἱ τύραννοι ἀλλʼ ἑκόντων, ὥσπερ καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι οἱ ἐν τῇ πόλει ἐλλόγιμοι ἄνδρες. [¶110] Soc. Do you mean, as by Themistocles and Pericles and Cimon, and by all those who have shown themselves able statesmen? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἆρά γε λέγεις ὥσπερ Θεμιστοκλῆς καὶ Περικλῆς καὶ Κίμων καὶ ὅσοι τὰ πολιτικὰ δεινοὶ γεγόνασιν; [¶111] The. Yes, in good earnest, I mean those people. > Greek: ΘΕ. νὴ Δία τούτους λέγω. [¶112] Soc. Then what if you chanced to desire to become wise in horsemanship? To whom would you have had to resort before expecting to be a clever horseman? To whom else but the horse-masters? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν εἰ τὰ ἱππικὰ ἐτύγχανες ἐπιθυμῶν σοφὸς γενέσθαι; παρὰ τίνας ἂν ἀφικόμενος ᾠήθης δεινὸς ἔσεσθαι ἱππεύς; ἦ παρʼ ἄλλους τινὰς ἢ τοὺς ἱππικούς; [¶113] The. To none else, I am sure. > Greek: ΘΕ. μὰ Δία οὐκ ἔγωγε. [¶114] Soc. And moreover, you would go to the actual men who are clever at the business, and who have horses and constantly use them in great numbers, both their own and other people’s? > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ παρʼ αὐτοὺς αὖ τοὺς δεινοὺς ὄντας ταῦτα, καὶ οἷς εἰσίν τε ἵπποι καὶ χρῶνται ἑκάστοτε καὶ οἰκείοις καὶ ἀλλοτρίοις πολλοῖς. [¶115] The. Obviously I should. > Greek: ΘΕ. δῆλον ὅτι. [¶116] Soc. And what if you wished to become wise in javelin-throwing? Would you not expect to get this wisdom by having resorted to those javelin-masters who have javelins and who constantly use javelins, both other people’s and their own, in great numbers? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί δὲ εἰ τὰ ἀκοντιστικὰ σοφὸς ἐβούλου γενέσθαι; οὐ παρὰ τοὺς ἀκοντιστικοὺς ᾤου ἂν ἐλθὼν σοφὸς ἔσεσθαι τούτους, οἷς ἔστιν τε ἀκόντια καὶ πολλοῖς καὶ ἀλλοτρίοις καὶ οἰκείοις ἑκάστοτε χρῶνται ἀκοντίοις; [¶117] The. I think so. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. [¶118] Soc. Then pray tell me, since it is your wish to become wise in state-matters, do you expect to get your wisdom by resorting to any other persons than those statesmen, who not only have their own ability in state-matters, but have constant dealings with other cities besides their own, by their intercourse alike with Greek cities and with foreign peoples? Or do you think to get wisdom in their business by resorting to any other persons than these particular men? > Greek: ΣΩ. λέγε δή μοι· ἐπεὶ δὲ δὴ τὰ πολιτικὰ βούλει σοφὸς γενέσθαι, οἴει παρʼ ἄλλους τινὰς ἀφικόμενος σοφὸς ἔσεσθαι ἢ τοὺς πολιτικοὺς τούτους, τοὺς αὐτούς τε δεινοὺς ὄντας τὰ πολιτικὰ καὶ χρωμένους ἑκάστοτε τῇ τε αὑτῶν πόλει καὶ ἄλλαις πολλαῖς, καὶ Ἑλληνίσιν προσομιλοῦντας πόλεσιν καὶ βαρβάροις; ἢ δοκεῖς ἄλλοις τισὶν συγγενόμενος σοφὸς ἔσεσθαι ταῦτα ἅπερ οὗτοι, ἀλλʼ οὐκ αὐτοῖς τούτοις; [¶119] The. Well, Socrates, I have heard of the argument that you are said to put forward—that the sons of those statesmen are no better men than the sons of shoemakers; and in my opinion your words are very true, from what I am able to gather. Hence I should be an utter fool if I supposed that any of these men would impart his wisdom to me when he never was of any use to his own son, as he would have been, if he were able to be of use in this matter to anyone at all in the world. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἀκήκοα γάρ, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὕς σέ φασιν λέγειν τοὺς λόγους, ὅτι τούτων τῶν πολιτικῶν ἀνδρῶν οἱ ὑεῖς οὐδὲν βελτίους εἰσὶν ἢ οἱ τῶν σκυτοτόμων· καί μοι δοκεῖς ἀληθέστατα λέγειν ἐξ ὧν ἐγὼ δύναμαι αἰσθέσθαι. ἀνόητος ἂν οὖν εἴην εἰ οἰοίμην τινὰ τούτων ἐμοὶ μὲν ἂν παραδοῦναι τὴν αὑτοῦ σοφίαν, τὸν δὲ ὑὸν τὸν αὑτοῦ μηδὲν ὠφελῆσαι, εἴ τι οἷός τʼ ἦν εἰς ταῦτα ὠφελεῖν ἄλλον ὁντιναοῦν ἀνθρώπων. [¶120] Soc. Then which way, most excellent sir, would you turn if, when you came to have a son, he should trouble you in the same manner, and tell you he desired to become a good painter, and should blame you, his father, for refusing to spend money on him for that very purpose, but at the same time should disregard the practitioners of that very thing, the painters, and decline to learn from them? Or the flute-players, when he wished to become a flute-player, or the harp-players? Would you know what to do with him, and where else you should send him if he refused to learn from these? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί οὖν ἄν, ὦ βέλτιστε ἀνδρῶν, χρήσαιο σαυτῷ, εἴ σοι ἐπειδὴ γένοιτο ὑὸς τοιαῦτα πράγματα παρέχοι, καὶ φαίη μὲν ἂν ἐπιθυμεῖν ἀγαθὸς γενέσθαι ζωγράφος, καὶ μέμφοιτο σοὶ τῷ πατρὶ ὅτι οὐκ ἐθέλεις ἀναλίσκειν εἰς αὐτὸν τούτων αὐτῶν ἕνεκα ἀργύριον, τοὺς δὲ δημιουργοὺς αὐτοῦ τούτου, τοὺς ζωγράφους, ἀτιμάζοι τε καὶ μὴ βούλοιτο παρʼ αὐτῶν μανθάνειν; ἢ τοὺς αὐλητάς, βουλόμενος αὐλητὴς γενέσθαι, ἢ τοὺς κιθαριστάς; ἔχοις ἂν αὐτῷ ὅτι χρῷο καὶ ὅποι πέμποις ἄλλοσε μὴ ἐθέλοντα παρὰ τούτων μανθάνειν; [¶121] The. Upon my word, I should not. > Greek: ΘΕ. μὰ Δία οὐκ ἔγωγε. [¶122] Soc. And do you now, when you are behaving in just the same way to your father, feel surprised and blame him for being at a loss what to do with you and where to send you? Why, we are ready to place you with any well-bred Athenian statesman you may choose, who will train you free of charge; and so not only will you be at no expense of money, but will gain far greater commendation amongst the mass of men than if you studied with anyone else. > Greek: ΣΩ. νῦν οὖν ταὐτὰ ταῦτα αὐτὸς πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ποιῶν θαυμάζεις, καὶ μέμφῃ εἰ ἀπορεῖ ὅτι σοι χρήσηται καὶ ὅποι πέμποι; ἐπεὶ Ἀθηναίων γε τῶν καλῶν κἀγαθῶν τὰ πολιτικὰ ὅτῳ ἂν βούλῃ συστήσομέν σε, ὅς σοι προῖκα συνέσται· καὶ ἅμα μὲν ἀργύριον οὐκ ἀναλώσεις, ἅμα δὲ πολὺ μᾶλλον εὐδοκιμήσεις παρὰ τοῖς πολλοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἢ ἄλλῳ τῳ συνών. [¶123] The. But then, Socrates, are not you too one of our well-bred gentlemen? Indeed, if you will agree to instruct me, I am content and seek no other. > Greek: ΘΕ. τί οὖν, ὦ Σώκρατες; οὐ καὶ σὺ τῶν καλῶν κἀγαθῶν εἰ ἀνδρῶν; εἰ γὰρ σύ μοι ἐθέλοις συνεῖναι, ἐξαρκεῖ καὶ οὐδένα ἄλλον ζητῶ. [¶124] Soc. What do you mean by that, Theages? > Greek: ΣΩ. τί τοῦτο λέγεις, Θέαγες; [¶125] Dem. Nay, Socrates, there is nothing amiss in what he says, and you will oblige me at the same time; for I should count it the greatest possible stroke of luck if he should welcome your instruction and you also should consent to instruct him. Nay, indeed, I am quite ashamed to say how keenly I wish it; but I entreat you both—you, to consent to teach Theages, and you, to seek the teaching of no one else than Socrates; you will thus relieve me of a harassing load of anxiety. For just now I am sorely afraid of his falling in with some other person who is likely to corrupt him. > Greek: ΔΗ. ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐ μέντοι κακῶς λέγει, καὶ ἅμα μὲν ἐμοὶ χαριῇ· ὡς ἐγὼ οὐκ ἔσθʼ ὅτι τούτου μεῖζον ἂν ἕρμαιον ἡγησαίμην, ἢ εἰ οὗτός τε ἀρέσκοιτο τῇ σῇ συνουσίᾳ καὶ σὺ ἐθέλοις τούτῳ συνεῖναι. καὶ μέντοι καὶ αἰσχύνομαι λέγειν ὡς σφόδρα βούλομαι. ἀλλʼ ἐγὼ ἀμφοτέρων ὑμῶν δέομαι, σέ τʼ ἐθέλειν τούτῳ συνεῖναι καὶ σὲ μὴ ζητεῖν ἄλλῳ μηδενὶ συγγενέσθαι ἢ Σωκράτει· καί με πολλῶν καὶ φοβερῶν ἀπαλλάξετε φροντίδων. ὡς νῦν πάνυ φοβοῦμαι ὑπὲρ τούτου μή τινι ἄλλῳ ἐντύχῃ οἵῳ τοῦτον διαφθεῖραι. [¶126] The. Have no more fears for me now, father, so long as you are able to persuade him to receive me as his pupil. > Greek: ΘΕ. μηκέτι νῦν, ὦ πάτερ, ὑπέρ γʼ ἐμοῦ φοβοῦ, εἴπερ οἷός τʼ εἶ πεῖσαι τοῦτον τὴν ἐμὴν συνουσίαν προσδέξασθαι. [¶127] Dem. Very rightly spoken. Socrates, from now onward we must address ourselves to you; for I am ready, in short, to place both myself and all that I hold dearest of what is mine in your hands—whatever you may require, absolutely—if you will open your arms to Theages here, and do him any service that you can. > Greek: ΔΗ. πάνυ καλῶς λέγεις. ὦ Σώκρατες, πρὸς σὲ δʼ ἂν ἤδη εἴη ὁ μετὰ τοῦτο λόγος· ἐγὼ γάρ σοι ἕτοιμός εἰμι, ὡς διὰ βραχέων εἰπεῖν, καὶ ἐμὲ καὶ τὰ ἐμὰ ὡς οἷόν τε οἰκειότατα παρέχειν, ὅτου ἂν δέῃ ἔμβραχυ, ἐὰν Θεάγη τουτονὶ ἀσπάζῃ τε καὶ εὐεργετῇς ὅτι ἂν οἷός τε ᾖς. [¶128] Soc. Demodocus, your zeal is no wonder to me, if you suppose that I especially could be of use to him; for I know of nothing for which a sensible man could be more zealous than for his own son’s utmost improvement. But how you came to form this opinion, that I would be better able to be of use to your son in his aim of becoming a good citizen than you would yourself, and how he came to suppose that I rather than yourself would be of use to him—this does fill me with wonder. For you, in the first place, are my elder, and further, you have held in your time many of the highest offices in Athens, and are respected by the people of Anagyrus above all your fellow-townsmen, and by the whole state as much as any man, whereas neither of you can notice anything like this about me. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὦ Δημόδοκε, τὸ μὲν ἐσπουδακέναι σε οὐ θαυμάζω, εἴπερ οἴει ὑπʼ ἐμοῦ μάλιστʼ ἄν σοι τοῦτον ὠφεληθῆναι—οὐ γὰρ οἶδα ὑπὲρ ὅτου ἄν τις νοῦν ἔχων μᾶλλον σπουδάζοι ἢ ὑπὲρ ὑέος αὑτοῦ ὅπως ὡς βέλτιστος ἔσται—ὁπόθεν δὲ ἔδοξέ σοι τοῦτο, ὡς ἐγὼ ἂν μᾶλλον τὸν σὸν ὑὸν οἷός τʼ εἴην ὠφελῆσαι πρὸς τὸ πολίτην ἀγαθὸν γενέσθαι ἢ σὺ αὐτός, καὶ ὁπόθεν οὗτος ᾠήθη ἐμὲ μᾶλλον ἢ σὲ αὐτὸν ὠφελήσειν, τοῦτο πάνυ θαυμάζω. σὺ γὰρ πρῶτον μὲν πρεσβύτερος εἶ ἐμοῦ, ἔπειτα πολλὰς ἤδη ἀρχὰς καὶ τὰς μεγίστας Ἀθηναίοις ἦρξας, καὶ τιμᾷ ὑπὸ Ἀναγυρασίων τε τῶν δημοτῶν πολὺ μάλιστα καὶ ὑπὸ τῆς ἄλλης πόλεως οὐδενὸς ἧττον· ἐμοὶ δὲ τούτων οὐδὲν ἐνορᾷ οὐδέτερος ὑμῶν. [¶129] Soc. And moreover, if Theages here does despise the instruction of our statesmen, and is looking for some other persons who profess to be able to educate young people, we have here Prodicus of Ceos, Gorgias of Leontini, Polus of Acragas, and many more, who are so wise that they go to our cities and persuade the noblest and wealthiest of our young men—who have the choice of learning from any citizen they choose, free of charge—they persuade them to abandon that instruction and learn from them, with a deposit, besides, of a large sum of money as their fee, and to feel thankful in addition. Some of these persons might naturally have been chosen both by your son and by yourself, in preference to me; for I have no knowledge of those fair and beatific subjects of study: I only wish that I had. But what I always say, you know, is that I am in the position of knowing practically nothing except one little subject, that of love-matters. In this subject, however, I claim to be skilled above anybody who has ever lived or is now living in the world. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἔπειτα εἰ ἄρα τῆς μὲν τῶν πολιτικῶν ἀνδρῶν συνουσίας Θεάγης ὅδε καταφρονεῖ, ἄλλους δέ τινας ζητεῖ οἳ παιδεύειν ἐπαγγέλλονται οἷοί τε εἶναι νέους ἀνθρώπους, ἔστιν ἐνταῦθα καὶ Πρόδικος ὁ Κεῖος καὶ Γοργίας ὁ Λεοντῖνος καὶ πῶλος ὁ Ἀκραγαντῖνος καὶ ἄλλοι πολλοί, οἳ οὕτω σοφοί εἰσιν ὥστε εἰς τὰς πόλεις ἰόντες πείθουσι τῶν νέων τοὺς γενναιοτάτους τε καὶ πλουσιωτάτους—οἷς ἔξεστιν τῶν πολιτῶν ᾧ ἂν βούλωνται προῖκα συνεῖναι— τούτους πείθουσιν ἀπολείποντας τὰς ἐκείνων συνουσίας αὐτοῖς συνεῖναι, προσκατατιθέντας ἀργύριον πάνυ πολὺ μισθόν, καὶ χάριν πρὸς τούτοις εἰδέναι. τούτων τινὰς εἰκὸς ἦν προαιρεῖσθαι καὶ τὸν ὑόν σου καὶ αὐτὸν σέ, ἐμὲ δʼ οὐκ εἰκός· οὐδὲν γὰρ τούτων ἐπίσταμαι τῶν μακαρίων τε καὶ καλῶν μαθημάτων—ἐπεὶ ἐβουλόμην ἄν—ἀλλὰ καὶ λέγω δήπου ἀεὶ ὅτι ἐγὼ τυγχάνω ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οὐδὲν ἐπιστάμενος πλήν γε σμικροῦ τινος μαθήματος, τῶν ἐρωτικῶν. τοῦτο μέντοι τὸ μάθημα παρʼ ὁντινοῦν ποιοῦμαι δεινὸς εἶναι καὶ τῶν προγεγονότων ἀνθρώπων καὶ τῶν νῦν. [¶130] The. Do you see, father? Socrates does not seem to me to be at all willing now to spend his time on me; for there is readiness enough on my part, if he is willing. But he is only jesting in what he has just told us. For I know of some of my equals in age, and some a little older, who were of no account before they learnt from him, but after beginning to learn from him have in a very short time proved themselves superior to all whose inferiors they were before. > Greek: ΘΕ. ὁρᾷς, ὦ πάτερ; ὁ Σωκράτης οὐ πάνυ μοι δοκεῖ [τι] ἔτι ἐθέλειν ἐμοὶ συνδιατρίβειν—ἐπεὶ τό γʼ ἐμὸν ἕτοιμον, ἐὰν οὗτος ἐθέλῃ—ἀλλὰ ταῦτα παίζων πρὸς ἡμᾶς λέγει. ἐπεὶ ἐγὼ οἶδα τῶν ἐμῶν ἡλικιωτῶν καὶ ὀλίγῳ πρεσβυτέρων οἳ πρὶν μὲν τούτῳ συνεῖναι οὐδενὸς ἄξιοι ἦσαν, ἐπειδὴ δὲ συνεγένοντο τούτῳ, ἐν πάνυ ὀλίγῳ χρόνῳ πάντων βελτίους φαίνονται ὧν πρότερον χείρους. [¶131] Soc. And do you know what the meaning of it is, son of Demodocus? > Greek: ΣΩ. οἶσθα οὖν οἷον τοῦτό ἐστιν, ὦ παῖ Δημοδόκου; [¶132] The. Yes, on my soul, I do—that, if it be your pleasure, I too shall be able to become such as those others are. > Greek: ΘΕ. ναὶ μὰ Δία ἔγωγε, ὅτι, ἐὰν σὺ βούλῃ, καὶ ἐγὼ οἷός τʼ ἔσομαι τοιοῦτος γενέσθαι οἷοίπερ καὶ ἐκεῖνοι. [¶133] Soc. No, good sir, the meaning of it escapes you; but I will tell it you. There is something spiritual which, by a divine dispensation, has accompanied me from my childhood up. It is a voice that, when it occurs, always indicates to me a prohibition of something I may be about to do, but never urges me on to anything; and if one of my friends consults me and the voice occurs, the same thing happens: it prohibits, and does not allow him to act. And I will produce witnesses to convince you of these facts. You know our Charmides here, who has grown so handsome, the son of Glaucon: he once happened to be consulting me on his intention of training for the Nemean races, and he had no sooner begun to say that he intended to train than the voice occurred, and I tried to prevent him, saying—“Just as you were speaking my spirit-voice has occurred: no, you must not train.” “Perhaps,” said he, “it indicates to you that I shall not win; but even if I am not to win, at any rate the exercise I shall get in the meantime will do me good.” > Greek: ΣΩ. οὔκ, ὠγαθέ, ἀλλά σε λέληθεν οἷον τοῦτʼ ἔστιν, ἐγὼ δέ σοι φράσω. ἔστι γάρ τι θείᾳ μοίρᾳ παρεπόμενον ἐμοὶ ἐκ παιδὸς ἀρξάμενον δαιμόνιον. ἔστι δὲ τοῦτο φωνή, ἣ ὅταν γένηται ἀεί μοι σημαίνει, ὃ ἂν μέλλω πράττειν, τούτου ἀποτροπήν, προτρέπει δὲ οὐδέποτε· καὶ ἐάν τίς μοι τῶν φίλων ἀνακοινῶται καὶ γένηται ἡ φωνή, ταὐτὸν τοῦτο, ἀποτρέπει καὶ οὐκ ἐᾷ πράττειν. καὶ τούτων ὑμῖν μάρτυρας παρέξομαι. Χαρμίδην γὰρ τουτονὶ γιγνώσκετε τὸν καλὸν γενόμενον, τὸν Γλαύκωνος· οὗτός ποτε ἐτύγχανε ἐμοὶ ἀνακοινούμενος μέλλων ἀσκήσειν στάδιον εἰς Νεμέαν, καὶ εὐθὺς αὐτοῦ ἀρχομένου λέγειν ὅτι μέλλοι ἀσκεῖν ἐγένετο ἡ φωνή, καὶ ἐγὼ διεκώλυόν τε αὐτὸν καὶ εἶπον ὅτι λέγοντός σου μεταξὺ γέγονέ μοι ἡ φωνὴ ἡ τοῦ δαιμονίου· ἀλλὰ μὴ ἄσκει. ἴσως, ἔφη, σημαίνει σοι ὅτι οὐ νικήσω· ἐγὼ δὲ κἂν μὴ μέλλω νικᾶν, γυμνασάμενός γε τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον ὠφεληθήσομαι. [¶134] Soc. So saying, he went and trained; and so you may as well inquire of him as to the results he got from his training. Or if you like, ask Cleitomachus, brother of Timarchus, what Timarchus said to him when he was going straight to the prison to meet his death, he and Euathlus the racing runner, who had harbored Timarchus as a fugitive; for he will tell you that the words he spoke to him were these: > Greek: ΣΩ. ταῦτα εἰπὼν ἤσκει· ἄξιον οὖν πυθέσθαι αὐτοῦ ἃ αὐτῷ συνέβη ἀπὸ ταύτης τῆς ἀσκήσεως. εἰ δὲ βούλεσθε, τὸν Τιμάρχου ἀδελφὸν Κλειτόμαχον ἔρεσθε τί εἶπεν αὐτῷ Τίμαρχος ἡνίκα ἀποθανούμενος ᾔει εὐθὺ τοῦ δαιμονίου, ἐκεῖνός τε καὶ Εὔαθλος ὁ σταδιοδρομῶν ὃς Τίμαρχον ὑπεδέξατο φεύγοντα· ἐρεῖ γὰρ ὑμῖν ὅτι εἶπεν αὐτῷ ταυτί. [¶135] The. What? > Greek: ΘΕ. τί; [¶136] Soc. “Cleitomachus,” he said, “I tell you I am going to my death now, because I would not take Socrates’ advice.” Now, why on earth did Timarchus say that? I will tell you. When Timarchus and Philemon, son of Philemonides, got up from the wine-party to kill Nicias, son of Heroscamandrus, those two alone had knowledge of the plot; and Timarchus, as he got up, said to me: “What say you, Socrates? Go on drinking, all of you; I have to get up and go somewhere, but I will join you a little later, if I get the chance.” Then occurred that voice of mine, and I said to him: “No, no, do not get up; for my accustomed spiritual sign has occurred to me.” So he stopped. Then after an interval of time he again started to go, and said: “Well, I am going, Socrates.” Again the voice occurred, and so again I constrained him to stop. The third time, wishing to give me the slip, he got up without saying another word to me; he gave me the slip by watching until my attention was turned elsewhere. Thus it was that he went right off and committed the deed which was the cause of his going then to his death. And hence it was that he spoke those words to his brother which I quoted to you just now, that he was going to his death because he had not taken my advice. And moreover, in regard to the Sicilian business, many will tell you what I said about the destruction of the army. As to bygones, you may hear from those who know: but there is an opportunity now of testing the worth of what the sign says. For as the handsome Sannio was setting out on campaign, the sign occurred to me, and he has gone now with Thrasyllus on an expedition bound for Ephesus and Ionia. I accordingly expect him to be either killed or brought very near it, and I have great fears for our force as a whole. Now I have told you all this, because this spiritual power that attends me also exerts itself to the full in my intercourse with those who spend their time with me. To many, indeed, it is adverse, and it is not possible for these to get any good by conversing with me, and I am therefore unable to spend my time in conversing with them. And there are many with whom it does not prohibit my intercourse, yet the intercourse does them no good. But those who are assisted in their intercourse by that spiritual power are the persons whom you have noticed; for they make rapid progress there and then. > Greek: ΣΩ. ὦ Κλειτόμαχε, ἔφη, ἐγὼ μέντοι ἔρχομαι ἀποθανούμενος νυνί, διότι Σωκράτει οὐκ ἤθελον πείθεσθαι. τί δὴ οὖν ποτε τοῦτο εἶπεν ὁ Τίμαρχος; ἐγὼ φράσω. ὅτε ἀνίστατο ἐκ τοῦ συμποσίου ὁ Τίμαρχος καὶ Φιλήμων ὁ Φιλημονίδου ἀποκτενοῦντες Νικίαν τὸν Ἡροσκαμάνδρου, ἠπιστάσθην μὲν αὐτὼ μόνω τὴν ἐπιβουλήν, ὁ δὲ Τίμαρχος ἀνιστάμενος πρὸς ἐμὲ εἶπεν, τί λέγεις, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες; ὑμεῖς μὲν πίνετε, ἐμὲ δὲ δεῖ ποι ἐξαναστῆναι· ἥξω δὲ ὀλίγον ὕστερον, ἐὰν τύχω. καί μοι ἐγένετο ἡ φωνή, καὶ εἶπον πρὸς αὐτόν, μηδαμῶς, ἔφην, ἀναστῇς· γέγονε γάρ μοι τὸ εἰωθὸς σημεῖον τὸ δαιμόνιον. καὶ ὃς ἐπέσχε. καὶ διαλιπὼν χρόνον αὖθις ὡρμᾶτο ἰέναι, καὶ ἔφη· εἶμι δή, Σώκρατες. αὖθις ἐγένετο ἡ φωνή· αὖθις οὖν αὐτὸν ἠνάγκασα ἐπισχεῖν. τὸ τρίτον, βουλόμενός με λαθεῖν, ἀνέστη οὐκέτι εἰπών μοι οὐδὲν ἀλλὰ λαθών, ἐπιτηρήσας ἄλλοσε τὸν νοῦν ἔχοντα· καὶ οὕτως ᾤχετο ἀπιὼν καὶ διεπράξατο ἐξ ὧν ᾔει ἀποθανούμενος. ὅθεν δὴ τοῦτο εἶπεν πρὸς τὸν ἀδελφὸν ὅπερ νῦν ὑμῖν ἐγώ, ὅτι ἴοι ἀποθανούμενος διὰ τὸ ἐμοὶ ἀπιστῆσαι. ἔτι τοίνυν περὶ τῶν ἐν Σικελίᾳ πολλῶν ἀκούσεσθον ἃ ἐγὼ ἔλεγον περὶ τῆς διαφθορᾶς τοῦ στρατοπέδου. καὶ τὰ μὲν παρεληλυθότα τῶν εἰδότων ἔστιν ἀκοῦσαι· πεῖραν δʼ ἔξεστι νυνὶ λαβεῖν τοῦ σημείου εἰ ἄρα τὶ λέγει. ἐπὶ γὰρ τῇ ἐπὶ στρατείαν ἐξορμῇ Σαννίωνος τοῦ καλοῦ ἐγένετό μοι τὸ σημεῖον, οἴχεται δὲ νῦν μετὰ Θρασύλλου στρατευσόμενος εὐθὺ Ἐφέσου καὶ Ἰωνίας. ἐγὼ οὖν οἴομαι ἐκεῖνον ἢ ἀποθανεῖσθαι ἢ ὁμοῦ τι τούτῳ γʼ ἐλᾶν, καὶ περί γε τῆς στρατιᾶς τῆς ἄλλης πάνυ φοβοῦμαι. ταῦτα δὴ πάντα εἴρηκά σοι, ὅτι ἡ δύναμις αὕτη τοῦ δαιμονίου τούτου καὶ εἰς τὰς συνουσίας τῶν μετʼ ἐμοῦ συνδιατριβόντων τὸ ἅπαν δύναται. πολλοῖς μὲν γὰρ ἐναντιοῦται, καὶ οὐκ ἔστι τούτοις ὠφεληθῆναι μετʼ ἐμοῦ διατρίβουσιν, ὥστε οὐχ οἷόν τέ μοι τούτοις συνδιατρίβειν· πολλοῖς δὲ συνεῖναι μὲν οὐ διακωλύει, ὠφελοῦνται δὲ οὐδὲν συνόντες. οἷς δʼ ἂν συλλάβηται τῆς συνουσίας ἡ τοῦ δαιμονίου δύναμις, οὗτοί εἰσιν ὧν καὶ σὺ ᾔσθησαι· ταχὺ γὰρ παραχρῆμα ἐπιδιδόασιν. [¶137] Soc. And of these, again, who make progress some find the benefit both solid and enduring; while there are many who, for as long a time as they are with me, make wonderful progress, but when they are parted from me relapse, and are no different from anybody else. This once befell Aristeides, son of Lysimachus, son of Aristeides. For by conversing with me he had made immense progress in a little time; and then he had to go on an expedition, and he went and sailed away. On his return he found that Thucydides, son of Melesias, son of Thucydides, had been conversing with me. Now Thucydides, the day before, had quarrelled with me over some arguments we had had. So when Aristeides saw me, after greeting me and talking of other affairs, he said: “But Thucydides, I hear, Socrates, is somewhat on his dignity with you, and is annoyed as though he were somebody.” “Yes, that is so,” I replied. “Well, but does he not know,” he said, “what a sad slave he was, before he associated with you?” “It seems not,” I replied, “upon my soul.” “But indeed I myself also,” he said, “am in a ridiculous position, Socrates.” “How exactly?” I asked. “Because,” he replied, “before I sailed away, I was able to discuss things with anybody, and show myself inferior to none in argument, so that I even sought out the debates of the most accomplished people: but now, on the contrary, I shun them, wherever I notice there is anyone of education, so ashamed I am of my own ineptitude.” “Tell me,” I said, “did this power forsake you of a sudden, or little by little?” “Little by little,” he replied. “And when it was present with you,” I asked, “was it present through your having learnt something from me, or in some other way?” “I will tell you, Socrates,” he said, “what is incredible, upon my soul, yet true. For I never yet learnt anything from you, as you know yourself: but I made progress, whenever I was with you, if I was merely in the same house, without being in the same room, but more progress, when I was in the same room. And it seemed to me to be much more when I was in the same room and looked at you as you were speaking, than when I turned my eyes elsewhere: but my progress was far the greatest and most marked whenever I sat beside you and held and touched you. Now, however,” he said, “that condition has all oozed away.”Such then, Theages, is the intercourse you would have with me: if God so wills, you will make very great and rapid progress, but otherwise, you will not. Consider, therefore, if it is not safer for you to be educated by one of those persons who have command themselves of the benefit which they bestow on mankind, rather than follow the course on which you may chance with me. > Greek: ΣΩ. καὶ τούτων αὖ τῶν ἐπιδιδόντων οἱ μὲν καὶ βέβαιον ἔχουσι καὶ παραμόνιμον τὴν ὠφελίαν· πολλοὶ δέ, ὅσον ἂν μετʼ ἐμοῦ χρόνον ὦσιν, θαυμάσιον ἐπιδιδόασιν, ἐπειδὰν δέ μου ἀπόσχωνται, πάλιν οὐδὲν διαφέρουσιν ὁτουοῦν. τοῦτό ποτε ἔπαθεν Ἀριστείδης ὁ Λυσιμάχου ὑὸς τοῦ Ἀριστείδου. διατρίβων γὰρ μετʼ ἐμοῦ πάμπολυ ἐπεδεδώκει ἐν ὀλίγῳ χρόνῳ· ἔπειτα αὐτῷ στρατεία τις ἐγένετο καὶ ᾤχετο ἐκπλέων, ἥκων δὲ κατελάμβανε μετʼ ἐμοῦ διατρίβοντα Θουκυδίδην τὸν Μελησίου ὑὸν τοῦ Θουκυδίδου. ὁ δὲ Θουκυδίδης τῇ προτεραίᾳ μοι διʼ ἀπεχθείας ἐν λόγοις τισὶν ἐγεγόνει· ἰδὼν οὖν με ὁ Ἀριστείδης, ἐπειδὴ ἠσπάσατό τε καὶ τἆλλα διελέχθη, Θουκυδίδην δέ, ἔφη, ἀκούω, ὦ Σώκρατες, σεμνύνεσθαι ἄττα πρός σε καὶ χαλεπαίνειν ὡς τὶ ὄντα. ἔστι γάρ, ἔφην ἐγώ, οὕτως. τί δέ, οὐκ οἶδεν, ἔφη, πρὶν σοὶ συγγενέσθαι οἷον ἦν τὸ ἀνδράποδον; οὐκ ἔοικέν γε, ἔφην ἐγώ, νὴ τοὺς θεούς. ἀλλὰ μὴν καὶ αὐτός γε, ἔφη, καταγελάστως ἔχω, ὦ Σώκρατες. τί μάλιστα; ἔφην ἐγώ. ὅτι, ἔφη, πρὶν μὲν ἐκπλεῖν, ὁτῳοῦν ἀνθρώπῳ οἷός τʼ ἦ διαλέγεσθαι καὶ μηδενὸς χείρων φαίνεσθαι ἐν τοῖς λόγοις, ὥστε καὶ ἐδίωκον τὰς συνουσίας τῶν χαριεστάτων ἀνθρώπων, νυνὶ δὲ τοὐναντίον φεύγω ἄν τινα καὶ αἰσθάνωμαι πεπαιδευμένον· οὕτως αἰσχύνομαι ἐπὶ τῇ ἐμαυτοῦ φαυλότητι. πότερον δέ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐξαίφνης σε προύλιπεν αὕτη ἡ δύναμις ἢ κατὰ σμικρόν; κατὰ σμικρόν, ἦ δʼ ὅς. ἡνίκα δέ σοι παρεγένετο, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πότερον μαθόντι παρʼ ἐμοῦ τι παρεγένετο ἤ τινι ἄλλῳ τρόπῳ; ἐγώ σοι ἐρῶ, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἄπιστον μὲν νὴ τοὺς θεούς, ἀληθὲς δέ. ἐγὼ γὰρ ἔμαθον μὲν παρά σου οὐδὲν πώποτε, ὡς αὐτὸς οἶσθα· ἐπεδίδουν δὲ ὁπότε σοι συνείην, κἂν εἰ ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ μόνον οἰκίᾳ εἴην, μὴ ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ δὲ οἰκήματι, μᾶλλον δὲ ὁπότε ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ οἰκήματι, καὶ ἔμοιγε ἐδόκουν πολὺ μᾶλλον ὁπότε ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ οἰκήματι ὢν λέγοντός σου βλέποιμι πρὸς σέ, μᾶλλον ἢ ὁπότε ἄλλοσε ὁρῴην, πολὺ δὲ μάλιστα καὶ πλεῖστον ἐπεδίδουν ὁπότε παρʼ αὐτόν σε καθοίμην ἐχόμενός σου καὶ ἁπτόμενος· νῦν δέ, ἦ δʼ ὅς, πᾶσα ἐκείνη ἡ ἕξις ἐξερρύηκε.ἔστιν οὖν, ὦ Θέαγες, τοιαύτη ἡ ἡμετέρα συνουσία· ἐὰν μὲν τῷ θεῷ φίλον ᾖ, πάνυ πολὺ ἐπιδώσεις καὶ ταχύ, εἰ δὲ μή, οὔ. ὅρα οὖν μή σοι ἀσφαλέστερον ᾖ παρʼ ἐκείνων τινὶ παιδεύεσθαι οἳ ἐγκρατεῖς αὐτοί εἰσιν τῆς ὠφελίας ἣν ὠφελοῦσιν τοὺς ἀνθρώπους μᾶλλον ἢ παρʼ ἐμοῦ ὅτι ἂν τύχῃ τοῦτο πρᾶξαι. [¶138] The. Well then, I decide, Socrates, that our plan shall be to make trial of that spiritual sign by associating with each other. Thus, if it leaves us free, that will be best of all; if it does not, it will be time then for us to consider, at the moment, what we shall do—whether we shall associate with someone else, or try to conciliate the divine sign itself that occurs to you with prayers and sacrifices and anything else that the seers may indicate. > Greek: ΘΕ. ἐμοὶ μὲν τοίνυν δοκεῖ, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἡμᾶς οὑτωσὶ ποιῆσαι, ἀποπειραθῆναι τοῦ δαιμονίου τούτου συνόντας ἀλλήλοις. καὶ ἐὰν μὲν παρείκῃ ἡμῖν, ταῦτα βέλτιστα· εἰ δὲ μή, τότε ἤδη παραχρῆμα βουλευσόμεθα ὅτι δράσομεν, εἴτε ἄλλῳ συνεσόμεθα, εἴτε καὶ αὐτὸ τὸ θεῖον τὸ σοὶ γιγνόμενον πειρασόμεθα παραμυθεῖσθαι εὐχαῖσί τε καὶ θυσίαις καὶ ἄλλῳ ὅτῳ ἂν οἱ μάντεις ἐξηγῶνται. [¶139] Dem. In view of this, Socrates, say no more in opposition to the lad; for Theages is right in what he says. > Greek: ΔΗ. μηκέτι πρὸς ταῦτα ἀντείπῃς, ὦ Σώκρατες, τῷ μειρακίῳ· εὖ γὰρ λέγει Θεάγης. [¶140] Soc. Well, if you consider that this is what we ought to do, let us do it. > Greek: ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ εἰ δοκεῖ χρῆναι οὕτω ποιεῖν, οὕτω ποιῶμεν.