--- title: "Dialogue on Orators · Dialogus de oratoribus" author: "Tacitus" translator: "Alfred John Church" languages: [la, en] shelf: "Classical Latin" section: 1 of 3 url: https://scriptura.si/works/tacitus-dialogus/1/ cite: "Tacitus, tr. Alfred John Church, Dialogue on Orators · Dialogus de oratoribus, section 1. Scriptura (scriptura.si), https://scriptura.si/works/tacitus-dialogus/1/" --- # Dialogue on Orators · Dialogus de oratoribus *Tacitus, tr. Alfred John Church* Why has eloquence declined? Four Romans debate poetry, oratory and freedom. > Latin: ed. Henry Furneaux, from the Perseus Digital Library (canonical-latinLit, phi1351.phi003, CC BY-SA 4.0). > English: Alfred John Church, from the Perseus Digital Library (phi1351.phi003.perseus-eng1). Notes are not included. > Rows follow the references the two texts share (chapters and sections), cut where both reach the end of a sentence. ## 1. 1–16 Source: https://scriptura.si/works/tacitus-dialogus/1/ · cite a paragraph as https://scriptura.si/works/tacitus-dialogus/1/#p-N [¶0] 1. You often ask me, Justus Fabius, how it is that while the genius and the fame of so many distinguished orators have shed a lustreon the past, our age is so forlorn and so destitute of the glory of eloquence that it scarce retains the very name of orator. That title indeed we apply only to the ancients, and the clever speakers of this day we call pleaders, advocates, counsellors, anything rather than orators. To answer this question of yours, to undertake the burden of so serious an inquiry, involving, as it must, a mean opinion either of our capacities, if we cannot reach the same standard, or of our tastes, if we have not the wish, is a task on which I should scarcely venture had I to give my own views instead of being able to reproduce a conversation among men, for our time, singularly eloquent, whom, when quite a youth, I heard discussing this very question. And so it is not ability, it is only memory and recollection which I require. I have to repeat now, with the same divisions and arguments, following closely the course of that discussion, those subtle reflections which I heard, powerfully expressed, from men of the highest eminence, each of whom assigned a different but plausible reason, thereby displaying the peculiarities of his individual temper and genius. Nor indeed did the opposite side lack an advocate, who, after much criticism and ridicule of old times, maintained the superiority of the eloquence of our own days to the great orators of the past. > Latin: 1. Saepe ex me requiris, Iuste Fabi, cur, cum priora saecula tot eminentium oratorum ingeniis gloriaque floruerint, nostra potissimum aetas deserta et laude eloquentiae orbata vix nomen ipsum oratoris retineat; neque enim ita appellamus nisi antiquos, horum autem temporum diserti causidici et advocati et patroni et quidvis potius quam oratores vocantur. cui percontationi tuae respondere et tam magnae quaestionis pondus excipere, ut aut de ingeniis nostris male existimandum ⟨sit⟩, si idem adsequi non possumus, aut de iudiciis, si nolumus, vix hercule auderem, si mihi mea sententia proferenda ac non disertissimorum, ut nostris temporibus, hominum sermo repetendus esset, quos eandem hanc quaestionem pertractantis iuvenis admodum audivi. ita non ingenio, sed memoria et recordatione opus est, ut quae a praestantissimis viris et excogitata subtiliter et dicta graviter accepi, cum singuli diversas sed probabilis causas adferrent, dum formam sui quisque et animi et ingenii redderent, isdem nunc numeris isdemque rationibus persequar, servato ordine disputationis. neque enim defuit qui diversam quoque partem susciperet, ac multum vexata et inrisa vetustate nostrorum temporum eloquentiam antiquorum ingeniis anteferret. [¶1] 2. It was the day after Curiatius Maternus had given a reading of his Cato, by which it was said that he had irritated the feelings of certain great personages, because in the subject of his tragedy he had apparently forgotten himself and thought only of Cato. While all Rome was discussing the subject, he received a visit from Marcus Aper and Julius Secundus, then the most famous men of genius at our bar. Of both I was a studious hearer in court, and I also would follow them to their homes and when they appeared in public, from a singular zeal for my profession, and a youthful enthusiasm which urged me to listen diligently to their trivial talk, their more serious debates, and their private and esoteric descourse. Yet many ill-naturedly thought that Secundus had no readiness of speech, and that Aper had won his reputation for eloquence by his cleverness and natural powers, more than by training and culture. As a fact, Secundus had a pure, terse, and a sufficiently fluent style, while Aper, who was imbued with learning of all kinds, pretended to despise the culture which he really possessed. He would have, so he must have thought, a greater reputation for industry and application, if it should appear that his genius did not depend on any supports from pursuits alien to his profession. > Latin: 2. Nam postero die quam Curiatius Maternus Catonem recitaverat, cum offendisse potentium animos diceretur, tamquam in eo tragoediae argumento sui oblitus tantum Catonem cogitasset, eaque de re per urbem frequens sermo haberetur, venerunt ad eum Marcus Aper et Iulius Secundus, celeberrima tum ingenia fori nostri, quos ego utrosque non modo in iudiciis studiose audiebam, sed domi quoque et in publico adsectabar mira studiorum cupiditate et quodam ardore iuvenili, ut fabulas quoque eorum et disputationes et arcana semotae dictionis penitus exciperem, quamvis maligne plerique opinarentur, nec Secundo promptum esse sermonem et Aprum ingenio potius et vi naturae quam institutione et litteris famam eloquentiae consecutum. nam et Secundo purus et pressus et, in quantum satis erat, profluens sermo non defuit, et Aper omni eruditione imbutus contemnebat potius litteras quam nesciebat, tamquam maiorem industriae et laboris gloriam habiturus, si ingenium eius nullis alienarum artium adminiculis inniti videretur. [¶2] 3. So we entered the study of Maternus, and found him seated with the very book which he had read the day before, in his hands. Secundus began. Has the talk of ill-natured people no effect in deterring you, Maternus, from clinging to your Cato with its provocations? Or have you taken up the book to revise it more carefully, and, after striking out whatever has given a handle for a bad interpretation, will you publish, if not a better, at least a safer, Cato? You shall read, was the answer, what Maternus owed it to himself to write, and all that you heard you will recognise again. Anything omitted in the Cato Thyestes shall supply in my next reading. This is a tragedy, the plan of which I have in my own mind arranged and formed. I am therefore bent on hurrying on the publication of the present book, that, as soon as my first work is off my hands, I may devote my whole soul to a fresh task. It seems, said Aper, so far from these tragedies contenting you, that you have abandoned the study of the orator and pleader, and are giving all your time to Medea and now to Thyestes, although your friends, with their many causes, and your clients from the colonies, municipalities, and towns, are calling you to the courts. You could hardly answer their demands even if you had not imposed new work on your- self, the work of adding to the dramas of Greece a Domitius and a Cato, histories and names from our own Rome. > Latin: 3. Igitur ut intravimus cubiculum Materni, sedentem ipsum⟨que⟩, quem pridie recitaverat librum, inter manus habentem deprehendimus. Tum Secundus 'nihilne te' inquit, 'Materne, fabulae malignorum terrent, quo minus offensas Catonis tui ames? an ideo librum istum adprehendisti, ut diligentius retractares, et sublatis si qua pravae interpretationi materiam dederunt, emitteres Catonem non quidem meliorem, sed tamen securiorem?' Tum ille 'leges' inquit 'quid Maternus sibi debuerit, et adgnosces quae audisti. quod si qua omisit Cato, sequenti recitatione Thyestes dicet; hanc enim tragoediam disposui iam et intra me ipse formavi. atque ideo maturare libri huius editionem festino, ut dimissa priore cura novae cogitationi toto pectore incumbam.' 'Adeo te tragoediae istae non satiant,' inquit Aper 'quo minus omissis orationum et causarum studiis omne tempus modo circa Medeam, ecce nunc circa Thyestem consumas, cum te tot amicorum causae, tot coloniarum et municipiorum clientelae in forum vocent, quibus vix suffeceris, etiam si non novum tibi ipse negotium importasses, ⟨ut⟩ Domitium et Catonem, id est nostras quoque historias et Romana nomina Graeculorum fabulis adgregares.' [¶3] 4. This severity of yours, replied Maternus, would be quite a blow to us, had not our controversy from its frequency and familiarity become by this time almost a regular practice. You, in fact, never cease from abusing and inveighing against poets, and I, whom you reproach with neglect of my professional duties, every day undertake to plead against you in defence of poetry. So I am all the more delighted at the presence of a judge who will either forbid me for the future to write verses, or who will compel me by his additional authority to do what I have long desired, to give up the petty subleties of legal causes, at which I have toiled enough, and more than enough, and to cultivate a more sacred and more stately eloquence. > Latin: 4. Et Maternus: 'perturbarer hac tua severitate, nisi frequens et assidua nobis contentio iam prope in consuetudinem vertisset. nam nec tu agitare et insequi poetas intermittis, et ego, cui desidiam advocationum obicis, cotidianum hoc patrocinium defendendae adversus te poeticae exerceo. quo laetor magis oblatum nobis iudicem, qui me vel in futurum vetet versus facere, vel, quod iam pridem opto, sua quoque auctoritate compellat, ut omissis forensium causarum angustiis, in quibus mihi satis superque sudatum est, sanctiorem illam et augustiorem eloquentiam colam.' [¶4] 5. For my part, said Secundus, before Aper refuses me as a judge, I will do as is usually done by upright and sensible judges, who excuse themselves in cases in which it is evident that one side has an undue influence with them. Who knows not that no one is nearer my heart from long friendship and uninterrupted intercourse than Saleius Bassus, an excellent man, as well as a most accomplished poet? Besides, if poetry is to be put on her defence, I know not a more influential defendant. He may rest secure, said Aper, both Saleius Bassus himself, and anyone else who is devoted to the pursuit of poetry and the glory of song, if he has not the gift of pleading causes. But assuredly, as I have found an arbiter for this dispute, I will not allow Maternus to shelter himself behind a number of associates. I single him out for accusation before you on the ground that, though naturally fittest for that manly eloquence of the orator by which he might create and retain friendships, acquire connections, and attach the provinces, he is throwing away a pursuit than which it is impossible to imagine one in our state richer in advantages, more splendid in its prospects, more attractive in fame at home, more illustrious in celebrity throughout our whole empire and all the world. If, indeed, what is useful in life should be the aim of all our plans and actions, what can be safer than to practise an art armed with which a man can always bring aid to friends, succour to strangers, deliverance to the imperilled, while to malignant foes he is an actual fear and terror, himself the while secure and intrenched, so to say, within a power and a position of lasting strength? When we have a flow of prosperity, the efficacy and use of this art are seen in the help and protection of others; if, however, we hear the sound of danger to ourselves, the breast-plate and the sword are not, I am well assured, a stronger defence on the battle-field than eloquence is to a man amid the perils of a prosecution. It is both a shield and a weapon; you can use it alike for defence and attack, either before a judge, before the senate, or before the emperor. What but his eloquence did Eprius Marcellus oppose the other day to the senators in their fury? Armed with this, and consequently terrible, he baffled the sagacious but untrained wisdom of Helvidius Priscus, which knew nothing of such encounters. Of its usefulness I say no more. It is a point which I think my friend Maternus will be the last to dispute. > Latin: 5. 'Ego vero' inquit Secundus, 'antequam me iudicem Aper recuset, faciam quod probi et moderati iudices solent, ut in iis cognitionibus ⟨se⟩ excusent, in quibus manifestum est alteram apud eos partem gratia praevalere. quis enim nescit neminem mihi coniunctiorem esse et usu amicitiae et assiduitate contubernii quam Saleium Bassum, cum optimum virum tum absolutissimum poetam? porro si poetica accusatur, non alium video reum locupletiorem.' 'Securus sit' inquit Aper 'et Saleius Bassus et quisquis alius studium poeticae et carminum gloriam fovet, cum causas agere non possit. ego enim, quatenus arbitrum litis huius inveni, non patiar Maternum societate plurium defendi, sed ipsum solum apud eos arguam, quod natus ad eloquentiam virilem et oratoriam, qua parere simul et tueri amicitias, adsciscere necessitudines, complecti provincias possit, omittit studium, quo non aliud in civitate nostra vel ad utilitatem fructuosius ⟨vel ad voluptatem dulcius⟩ vel ad dignitatem amplius vel ad urbis famam pulchrius vel ad totius imperii atque omnium gentium notitiam inlustrius excogitari potest. nam si ad utilitatem vitae omnia consilia factaque nostra derigenda sunt, quid est tutius quam eam exercere artem, qua semper armatus praesidium amicis, opem alienis, salutem periclitantibus, invidis vero et inimicis metum et terrorem ultro feras, ipse securus et velut quadam perpetua potentia ac potestate munitus? cuius vis et utilitas rebus prospere fluentibus aliorum perfugio et tutela intellegitur: sin proprium periculum increpuit, non hercule lorica et gladius in acie firmius munimentum quam reo et periclitanti eloquentia, praesidium simul ac telum, quo propugnare pariter et incessere sive in iudicio sive in senatu sive apud principem possis. quid aliud infestis patribus nuper Eprius Marcellus quam eloquentiam suam opposuit? qua accinctus et minax disertam quidem, sed inexercitatam et eius modi certaminum rudem Helvidii sapientiam elusit. plura de utilitate non dico, cui parti minime contra dicturum Maternum meum arbitror. [¶5] 6. I pass now to the pleasure derived from the orator's eloquence. Its delights are enjoyed not for a single moment, but almost on every day and at every hour. To the mind of an educated gentleman, naturally fitted for worthy enjoyments, what can be more delightful than to see his house always thronged and crowded by gatherings of the most eminent men, and to know that the honour is paid not to his wealth, his childlessness, or his possession of some office, but to himself? Nay, more; the childless, the rich, and the powerful often go to one who is both young and poor, in order to intrust him with difficulties affecting themselves or their friends. Can there be any pleasure from boundless wealth and vast power equal to that of seeing men in years, and even in old age, men backed by the influence of the whole world, readily confessing, amid the utmost affluence of every kind, that they do not possess that which is the best of all? Again, look at the respectable citizens who escort the pleader to and from the court. Look at his appearance in public, and the respect shown him before the judges. What a delight it must be to rise and stand amid the hushed crowd, with every eye on him alone, the people assembling and gathering round him in a circle, and taking from the orator any emotion he has himself assumed. I am now reckoning the notorious joys of an orator, those which are open to the sight even of the uneducated; the more secret, known only to the advocate himself, are yet greater. If he produces a careful and well-prepared speech, there is a solidity and stedfastness in his satisfaction, just as there is in his style; if, again, he offers his audience, not without some tremblings at heart, the result of a fresh and sudden effort, his very anxiety enhances the joy of success, and ministers to his pleasure. In fact, audacity at the moment, and rashness itself, have quite a peculiar sweetness. As with the earth, so with genius. Though time must be bestowed on the sowing and cultivation of some plants, yet those which grow spontaneously are the more pleasing. > Latin: 6. Ad voluptatem oratoriae eloquentiae transeo, cuius iucunditas non uno aliquo momento, sed omnibus prope diebus ac prope omnibus horis contingit. quid enim dulcius libero et ingenuo animo et ad voluptates honestas nato quam videre plenam semper et frequentem domum suam concursu splendidissimorum hominum? idque scire non pecuniae, non orbitati, non officii alicuius administrationi, sed sibi ipsi dari? ipsos quin immo orbos et locupletes et potentis venire plerumque ad iuvenem et pauperem, ut aut sua aut amicorum discrimina commendent. ullane tanta ingentium opum ac magnae potentiae voluptas quam spectare homines veteres et senes et totius orbis gratia subnixos in summa rerum omnium abundantia confitentis, id quod optimum sit se non habere? iam vero qui togatorum comitatus et egressus! quae in publico species! quae in iudiciis veneratio! quod illud gaudium consurgendi adsistendique inter tacentis et in unum conversos! coire populum et circumfundi coram et accipere adfectum, quemcumque orator induerit! vulgata dicentium gaudia et imperitorum quoque oculis exposita percenseo: illa secretiora et tantum ipsis orantibus nota maiora sunt. sive accuratam meditatamque profert orationem, est quoddam sicut ipsius dictionis, ita gaudii pondus et constantia; sive novam et recentem curam non sine aliqua trepidatione animi attulerit, ipsa sollicitudo commendat eventum et lenocinatur voluptati. sed extemporalis audaciae atque ipsius temeritatis vel praecipua iucunditas est; nam in ingenio quoque, sicut in agro, quamquam alia diu serantur atque elaborentur, gratiora tamen quae sua sponte nascuntur. [¶6] 7. To speak my own mind, I did not experience more joy on the day on which I was presented with the robe of a senator, or when, as a new man, born in a far from influential state, I was elected quæstor, or tribune, or prætor, than on those on which it was my privilege, considering the insignificance of my ability as a speaker, to defend a prisoner with success, to win a verdict in a cause before the Court of the Hundred, or to give the support of my advocacy in the emperor's presence to the great freedmen themselves, or to ministers of the crown. On such occasions I seem to rise above tribunates, prætorships, and consulships, and to possess that which, if it be not of natural growth, is not bestowed by mandate, nor comes through interest. Again, is there an accomplishment, the fame and glory of which are to be compared with the distinction of the orator, who is an illustrious man at Rome, not only with the busy class, intent on public affairs, but even with people of leisure, and with the young, those at least who have a right disposition and a worthy confidence in themselves? Whose name does the father din into his children's ears before that of the orator? Whom, as he passes by, do the ignorant mob and the men with the tunic oftener speak of by name and point out with the finger? Strangers too and foreigners, having heard of him in their towns and colonies, as soon as they have arrived at Rome, ask for him and are eager, as it were to recognise him. > Latin: 7. Equidem, ut de me ipso fatear, non eum diem laetiorem egi, quo mihi latus clavus oblatus est, vel quo homo novus et in civitate minime favorabili natus quaesturam aut tribunatum aut praeturam accepi, quam eos, quibus mihi pro mediocritate huius quantulaecumque in dicendo facultatis aut reum prospere defendere aut apud centumviros causam aliquam feliciter orare aut apud principem ipsos illos libertos et procuratores principum tueri et defendere datur. tum mihi supra tribunatus et praeturas et consulatus ascendere videor, tum habere quod, si non in alio oritur, nec codicillis datur nec cum gratia venit. quid? fama et laus cuius artis cum oratorum gloria comparanda est? quid? non inlustres sunt in urbe non solum apud negotiosos et rebus intentos, sed etiam apud iuvenes vacuos et adulescentis, quibus modo recta indoles est et bona spes sui? quorum nomina prius parentes liberis suis ingerunt? quos saepius vulgus quoque imperitum et tunicatus hic populus transeuntis nomine vocat et digito demonstrat? advenae quoque et peregrini iam in municipiis et coloniis suis auditos, cum primum urbem attigerunt, requirunt ac velut adgnoscere concupiscunt. [¶7] 8. As for Marcellus Eprius, whom I have just mentioned, and Crispus Vibius (it is pleasanter to me to cite recent and modern examples than those of a distant and forgotten past), I would venture to argue that they are quite as great men in the remotest corners of the world as at Capua or Vercellae, where they are said to have been born. Nor do they owe this to the three hundred million sesterces of the one, although it may seem that they must thank their eloquence for having attained such wealth. Eloquence itself is the cause. Its inspiration and superhuman power have throughout all times shown by many an example what a height of fortune men have reached by the might of genius. But there are, as I said but now, instances close at hand, and we may know them, not by hearsay, but may see them with our eyes. The lower and meaner their birth, the more notorious the poverty and the straitened means amid which their life began, the more famous and brilliant are they as examples to show the efficacy of an orator's eloquence. Without the recommendation of birth, without the support of riches, neither of the two distinguished for virtue, one even despised for the appearance of his person, they have now for many years been the most powerful men in the state, and, as long as it suited them, they were the leaders of the bar. At this moment, as leading men in the emperor's friendship they carry all before them, and even the leading man himself of the State esteems and almost reverences them. Vespasian indeed, venerable in his old age and most tolerant of truth, knows well that while his other friends are dependent on what he has given them, and on what it is easy for him to heap and pile on others, Marcellus and Crispus, in becoming his friends, brought with them something which they had not received and which could not be received from a prince. Amid so much that is great, busts, inscriptions, and statues hold but a very poor place. Yet even these they do not disregard, and certainly not riches and affluence, which it is easier to find men denouncing than despising. It is these honours and splendours, aye and substantial wealth, that we see filling the homes of those who from early youth have given themselves to practice at the bar and to the study of oratory. > Latin: 8. Ausim contendere Marcellum hunc Eprium, de quo modo locutus sum, et Crispum Vibium (libentius enim novis et recentibus quam remotis et oblitteratis exemplis utor) non minores esse in extremis partibus terrarum quam Capuae aut Vercellis, ubi nati dicuntur. nec hoc illis alterius ⟨bis, alterius⟩ ter milies sestertium praestat, quamquam ad has ipsas opes possunt videri eloquentiae beneficio venisse, ⟨sed⟩ ipsa eloquentia; cuius numen et caelestis vis multa quidem omnibus saeculis exempla edidit, ad quam usque fortunam homines ingenii viribus pervenerint, sed haec, ut supra dixi, proxima et quae non auditu cognoscenda, sed oculis spectanda haberemus. nam quo sordidius et abiectius nati sunt quoque notabilior paupertas et angustiae rerum nascentis eos circumsteterunt, eo clariora et ad demonstrandam oratoriae eloquentiae utilitatem inlustriora exempla sunt, quod sine commendatione natalium, sine substantia facultatum, neuter moribus egregius, alter habitu quoque corporis contemptus, per multos iam annos potentissimi sunt civitatis ac, donec libuit, principes fori, nunc principes in Caesaris amicitia agunt feruntque cuncta atque ab ipso principe cum quadam reverentia diliguntur, quia Vespasianus, venerabilis senex et patientissimus veri, bene intellegit ceteros quidem amicos suos iis niti, quae ab ipso acceperint quaeque ipsis accumulare et in alios congerere promptum sit, Marcellum autem et Crispum attulisse ad amicitiam suam quod non a principe acceperint nec accipi possit. minimum inter tot ac tanta locum obtinent imagines ac tituli et statuae, quae neque ipsa tamen negleguntur, tam hercule quam divitiae et opes, quas facilius invenies qui vituperet quam qui fastidiat. his igitur et honoribus et ornamentis et facultatibus refertas domos eorum videmus, qui se ab ineunte adulescentia causis forensibus et oratorio studio dederunt. [¶8] 9. As for song and verse to which Maternus wishes to devote his whole life (for this was the starting-point of his entire argument), they bring no dignity to the author, nor do they improve his circumstances. Although your ears, Maternus, may loathe what I am about to say, I ask what good it is if Agamemnon or Jason speaks eloquently in your composition. Who the more goes back to his home saved from danger and bound to you? Our friend Saleius is an admirable poet, or, if the phrase be more complimentary, a most illustrious bard; but who walks by his side or attends his receptions or follows in his train? Why, if his friend or relative or even he himself stumbles into some troublesome affair, he will run to Secundus here, or to you, Maternus, not because you are a poet or that you may make verses for him; for verses come naturally to Bassus in his own home, and pretty and charming they are, though the result of them is that when, with the labour of a whole year, through entire days and the best part of the nights, he has hammered out, with the midnight oil, a single book, he is forced actually to beg and canvass for people who will condescend to be his hearers, and not even this without cost to himself. He gets the loan of a house, fits up a room, hires benches, and scatters programmes. Even if his reading is followed by a complete success, all the glory is, so to say, cut short in the bloom and the flower, and does not come to any real and substantial fruit. He carries away with him not a single friendship, not a single client, not an obligation that will abide in anyone's mind, only idle applause, meaningless acclamations and a fleeting delight. We lately praised Vespasian's bounty, in giving Bassus four thousand pounds, as something marvellous and splendid. It is no doubt a fine thing to win an emperor's favour by talent; but how much finer, if domestic circumstances so require, to cultivate oneself, to make one's own genius propitious, to fall back on one's own bounty. Consider too that a poet, if he wishes to work out and accomplish a worthy result, must leave the society of his friends, and the attractions of the capital; he must relinquish every other duty, and must, as poets themselves say, retire to woods and groves, in fact, into solitude. > Latin: 9. Nam carmina et versus, quibus totam vitam Maternus insumere optat (inde enim omnis fluxit oratio), neque dignitatem ullam auctoribus suis conciliant neque utilitates alunt; voluptatem autem brevem, laudem inanem et infructuosam consequuntur. licet haec ipsa et quae deinceps dicturus sum aures tuae, Materne, respuant, cui bono est, si apud te Agamemnon aut Iason diserte loquitur? quis ideo domum defensus et tibi obligatus redit? quis Saleium nostrum, egregium poetam vel, si hoc honorificentius est, praeclarissimum vatem, deducit aut salutat aut prosequitur? nempe si amicus eius, si propinquus, si denique ipse in aliquod negotium inciderit, ad hunc Secundum recurret aut ad te, Materne, non quia poeta es, neque ut pro eo versus facias; hi enim Basso domi nascuntur, pulchri quidem et iucundi, quorum tamen hic exitus est, ut cum toto anno, per omnes dies, magna noctium parte unum librum excudit et elucubravit, rogare ultro et ambire cogatur, ut sint qui dignentur audire, et ne id quidem gratis; nam et domum mutuatur et auditorium exstruit et subsellia conducit et libellos dispergit. et ut beatissimus recitationem eius eventus prosequatur, omnis illa laus intra unum aut alterum diem, velut in herba vel flore praecerpta, ad nullam certam et solidam pervenit frugem, nec aut amicitiam inde refert aut clientelam aut mansurum in animo cuiusquam beneficium, sed clamorem vagum et voces inanis et gaudium volucre. laudavimus nuper ut miram et eximiam Vespasiani liberalitatem, quod quingenta sestertia Basso donasset. pulchrum id quidem, indulgentiam principis ingenio mereri: quanto tamen pulchrius, si ita res familiaris exigat, se ipsum colere, suum genium propitiare, suam experiri liberalitatem! adice quod poetis, si modo dignum aliquid elaborare et efficere velint, relinquenda conversatio amicorum et iucunditas urbis, deserenda cetera officia utque ipsi dicunt, in nemora et lucos, id est in solitudinem secedendum est. [¶9] 10. Nor again do even reputation and fame, the only ob- ject of their devotion, the sole reward of their labours, by their own confession, cling to the poet as much as to the orator; for indifferent poets are known to none, and the good but to a few. When does the rumour of the very choicest readings penetrate every part of Rome, much less is talked of throughout our numerous provinces? How few, when they visit the capital from Spain or Asia, to say nothing of our Gallic neighbours, ask after Saleius Bassus! And indeed, if any one does ask after him, having once seen him, he passes on, and is satisfied, as if he had seen a picture or a statue. I do not wish my remarks to be taken as implying that I would deter from poetry those to whom nature has denied the orator's talent, if only they can amuse their leisure and push themselves into fame by this branch of culture. For my part I hold all eloquence in its every variety something sacred and venerable, and I regard as preferable to all studies of other arts not merely your tragedian's buskin or the measures of heroic verse, but even the sweetness of the lyric ode, the playfulness of the elegy, the satire of the iambic, the wit of the epigram, and indeed any other form of eloquence. But it is with you, Maternus, that I am dealing; for, when your genius might carry you to the summit of eloquence, you prefer to wander from the path, and though sure to win the highest prize you stop short at meaner things. Just as, if you had been born in Greece, where it is an honour to practise even the arts of the arena, and if the gods had given you the vigour and strength of Nicostratus, I should not suffer those giant arms meant by nature for combat to waste themselves on the light javelin or the throwing of the quoit, so now I summon you from the lecture-room and the theatre to the law court with its pleadings and its real battles. I do this the more because you cannot even fall back on the refuge which shelters many, the plea that the poet's pursuit is less liable to give offence than that of the orator. In truth, with you the ardour of a peculiarly noble nature bursts forth, and the offence you give is not for the sake of a friend, but, what is more dangerous, for the sake of Cato. Nor is this offending excused by the obligation of duty, or by the fidelity of an advocate, or by the impulse of a casual and sudden speech. You have, it seems, prepared your part in having chosen a character of note who would speak with authority. I foresee your possible answer. Hence, you will say, came the decisive approval; this is the style which the lecture-room chiefly praises, and which next becomes the world's talk. Away then with the excuse of quiet and safety, when you are deliberately choosing a more doughty adversary. For myself, let it be enough to take a side in the private disputes of our own time. In these, if at any time necessity has compelled us on behalf of an imperilled friend to offend the ears of the powerful, our loyalty must be approved, our liberty of speech condoned. > Latin: 10. Ne opinio quidem et fama, cui soli serviunt et quod unum esse pretium omnis laboris sui fatentur, aeque poetas quam oratores sequitur, quoniam mediocris poetas nemo novit, bonos pauci. quando enim rarissimarum recitationum fama in totam urbem penetrat? nedum ut per tot provincias innotescat. quotus quisque, cum ex Hispania vel Asia, ne quid de Gallis nostris loquar, in urbem venit, Saleium Bassum requirit? atque adeo si quis requirit, ut semel vidit, transit et contentus est, ut si picturam aliquam vel statuam vidisset. neque hunc meum sermonem sic accipi volo, tamquam eos, quibus natura sua oratorium ingenium denegavit, deterream a carminibus, si modo in hac studiorum parte oblectare otium et nomen inserere possunt famae. ego vero omnem eloquentiam omnisque eius partis sacras et venerabilis puto, nec solum cothurnum vestrum aut heroici carminis sonum, sed lyricorum quoque iucunditatem et elegorum lascivias et iamborum amaritudinem ⟨et⟩ epigrammatum lusus et quamcumque aliam speciem eloquentia habeat, anteponendam ceteris aliarum artium studiis credo. sed tecum mihi, Materne, res est, quod, cum natura tua in ipsam arcem eloquentiae ferat, errare mavis et summa adepturus in levioribus subsistis. ut si in Graecia natus esses, ubi ludicras quoque artis exercere honestum est, ac tibi Nicostrati robur ac vires di dedissent, non paterer inmanis illos et ad pugnam natos lacertos levitate iaculi aut iactu disci vanescere, sic nunc te ab auditoriis et theatris in forum et ad causas et ad vera proelia voco, cum praesertim ne ad illud quidem confugere possis, quod plerisque patrocinatur, tamquam minus obnoxium sit offendere poetarum quam oratorum studium. effervescit enim vis pulcherrimae naturae tuae, nec pro amico aliquo, sed, quod periculosius est, pro Catone offendis. nec excusatur offensa necessitudine officii aut fide advocationis aut fortuitae et subitae dictionis impetu: meditatus videris elegisse personam notabilem et cum auctoritate dicturam. sentio quid responderi possit: hinc ingentis adsensus, haec in ipsis auditoriis praecipue laudari et mox omnium sermonibus ferri. tolle igitur quietis et securitatis excusationem, cum tibi sumas adversarium superiorem. nobis satis sit privatas et nostri saeculi controversias tueri, in quibus si quando necesse sit pro periclitante amico potentiorum aures offendere, et probata sit fides et libertas excusata.' [¶10] 11. Aper having said this with his usual spirit and with vehemence of utterance, Maternus replied good-humouredly with something of a smile. I was preparing to attack the orators at as great length as Aper had praised them, for I thought that he would leave his praises of them and go on to demolish poets and the pursuit of poetry, but he appeased me by a sort of stratagem, granting permission to those who cannot plead causes, to make verses. For myself, though I am perhaps able to accomplish and effect something in pleading causes, yet it was by the public reading of tragedies that I first began to enter the path of fame, when in Nero's time I broke the wicked power of Vatinius by which even the sanctities of culture were profaned, and if at this moment I possess any celebrity and distinction I maintain that it has been acquired more by the renown of my poems than of my speeches. And so now I have resolved to throw off the yoke of my labours at the bar, and for trains of followers on my way to and from the court and for crowded receptions I crave no more than for the bronzes and busts which have invaded my house even against my will. For hitherto I have upheld my position and my safety better by integrity than by eloquence, and I am not afraid of having ever to say a word in the senate except to avert peril from another. > Latin: 11. Quae cum dixisset Aper acrius, ut solebat, et intento ore, remissus et subridens Maternus 'parantem' inquit 'me non minus diu accusare oratores quam Aper laudaverat (fore enim arbitrabar ut a laudatione eorum digressus detrectaret poetas atque carminum studium prosterneret) arte quadam mitigavit, concedendo iis, qui causas agere non possent, ut versus facerent. ego autem sicut in causis agendis efficere aliquid et eniti fortasse possum, ita recitatione tragoediarum et ingredi famam auspicatus sum, cum quidem in Neronem inprobam et studiorum quoque sacra profanantem Vatinii potentiam fregi, ⟨et⟩ hodie si quid in nobis notitiae ac nominis est, magis arbitror carminum quam orationum gloria partum. ac iam me deiungere a forensi labore constitui, nec comitatus istos et egressus aut frequentiam salutantium concupisco, non magis quam aera et imagines, quae etiam me nolente in domum meam inruperunt. nam statum cuiusque ac securitatem melius innocentia tuetur quam eloquentia, nec vereor ne mihi umquam verba in senatu nisi pro alterius discrimine facienda sint. [¶11] 12. As to the woods and groves and that retirement which Aper denounced, they bring such delight to me that I count among the chief enjoyments of poetry the fact that it is composed not in the midst of bustle, or with a suitor sitting before one's door, or amid the wretchedness and tears of prisoners, but that the soul withdraws herself to abodes of purity and innocence, and enjoys her holy resting-place. Here eloquence had her earliest beginnings; here is her inmost shrine. In such guise and beauty did she first charm mortals, and steal into those virgin hearts which no vice had contaminated. Oracles spoke under these conditions. As for the present money-getting and blood-stained eloquence, its use is modern, its origin in corrupt manners, and, as you said, Aper, it is a device to serve as a weapon. But the happy golden age, to speak in our own poetic fashion, knew neither orators nor accusations, while it abounded in poets and bards, men who could sing of good deeds, but not defend evil actions. None enjoyed greater glory, or honours more august, first with the gods, whose answers they published, and at whose feasts they were present, as was commonly said, and then with the offspring of the gods and with sacred kings, among whom, so we have understood, was not a single pleader of causes, but an Orpheus, a Linus, and, if you care to dive into a remoter age, an Apollo himself. Or, if you think all this too fabulous and imaginary, at least you grant me that Homer has as much honour with posterity as Demosthenes, and that the fame of Euripides or Sophocles is bounded by a limit not narrower than that of Lysias or Hyperides. You will find in our own day more who disparage Cicero's than Virgil's glory. Nor is any production of Asinius or Messala so famous as Ovid's Medea or the Thyestes of Varius. > Latin: 12. Nemora vero et luci et secretum ipsum, quod Aper increpabat, tantam mihi adferunt voluptatem, ut inter praecipuos carminum fructus numerem, quod non in strepitu nec sedente ante ostium litigatore nec inter sordes ac lacrimas reorum componuntur, sed secedit animus in loca pura atque innocentia fruiturque sedibus sacris. haec eloquentiae primordia, haec penetralia; hoc primum habitu cultuque commoda mortalibus in illa casta et nullis contacta vitiis pectora influxit: sic oracula loquebantur. nam lucrosae huius et sanguinantis eloquentiae usus recens et ex malis moribus natus, atque, ut tu dicebas, Aper, in locum teli repertus. ceterum felix illud et, ut more nostro loquar, aureum saeculum, et oratorum et criminum inops, poetis et vatibus abundabat, qui bene facta canerent, non qui male admissa defenderent. nec ullis aut gloria maior aut augustior honor, primum apud deos, quorum proferre responsa et interesse epulis ferebantur, deinde apud illos dis genitos sacrosque reges, inter quos neminem causidicum, sed Orphea ac Linum ac, si introspicere altius velis, ipsum Apollinem accepimus. vel si haec fabulosa nimis et composita videntur, illud certe mihi concedes, Aper, non minorem honorem Homero quam Demostheni apud posteros, nec angustioribus terminis famam Euripidis aut Sophoclis quam Lysiae aut Hyperidis includi. pluris hodie reperies, qui Ciceronis gloriam quam qui Virgilii detrectent: nec ullus Asinii aut Messallae liber tam inlustris est quam Medea Ovidii aut Varii Thyestes. [¶12] 13. Look again at the poet's lot, with its delightful companionships. I should not be afraid of comparing it with the harassing and anxious life of the orator. Orators, it is true, have been raised to consulships by their contests and perils, but I prefer Virgil's serene, calm, and peaceful retirement, in which after all he was not without the favour of the divine Augustus, and fame among the people of Rome. We have the testimony of the letters of Augustus, the testimony too of the people themselves, who, on hearing in the theatre some of Virgil's verses, rose in a body and did homage to the poet, who happened to be present as a spectator, just as to Augustus himself. Even in our own day, Pomponius Secundus need not yield to Domitius Aper on the score of a dignified life or an enduring reputation. As for your Crispus and Marcellus, whom you hold up to me as examples, what is there in their lot to be coveted? Is it that they are in fear themselves, or are a fear to others? Is it that, while every day something is asked from them, those to whom they grant it feel indignant? Is it that, bound as they are by the chain of flattery, they are never thought servile enough by those who rule, or free enough by us? What is their power at its highest? Why, the freedmen usually have as much. For myself, as Virgil says, let "the sweet muses" lead me to their sacred retreats, and to their fountains far away from anxieties and cares, and the necessity of doing every day something repugnant to my heart. Let me no longer tremblingly experience the madness and perils of the forum, and the pallors of fame. Let me not be aroused by a tumult of morning visitors, or a freedman's panting haste, or, anxious about the future, have to make a will to secure my wealth. Let me not possess more than what I can leave to whom I please, whenever the day appointed by my own fates shall come; and let the statue over my tomb be not gloomy and scowling, but bright and laurel-crowned. As for my memory, let there be no resolutions in the senate, or petitions to the emperor. > Latin: 13. Ac ne fortunam quidem vatum et illud felix contubernium comparare timuerim cum inquieta et anxia oratorum vita. licet illos certamina et pericula sua ad consulatus evexerint, malo securum et quietum Virgilii secessum, in quo tamen neque apud divum Augustum gratia caruit neque apud populum Romanum notitia. testes Augusti epistulae, testis ipse populus, qui auditis in theatro Virgilii versibus surrexit universus et forte praesentem spectantemque Virgilium veneratus est sic quasi Augustum. ne nostris quidem temporibus Secundus Pomponius Afro Domitio vel dignitate vitae vel perpetuitate famae cesserit. nam Crispus iste et Marcellus, ad quorum exempla me vocas, quid habent in hac sua fortuna concupiscendum? quod timent, an quod timentur? quod, cum cotidie aliquid rogentur, ii quibus praestant indignantur? quod adligati omni adulatione nec imperantibus umquam satis servi videntur nec nobis satis liberi? quae haec summa eorum potentia est? tantum posse liberti solent. me vero "dulces," ut Virgilius ait, "Musae," remotum a sollicitudinibus et curis et necessitate cotidie aliquid contra animum faciendi, in illa sacra illosque fontis ferant; nec insanum ultra et lubricum forum famamque pallentem trepidus experiar. non me fremitus salutantium nec anhelans libertus excitet, nec incertus futuri testamentum pro pignore scribam, nec plus habeam quam quod possim cui velim relinquere; quandoque enim fatalis et meus dies veniet: statuarque tumulo non maestus et atrox, sed hilaris et coronatus, et pro memoria mei nec consulat quisquam nec roget.' [¶13] 14. Excited and, I say say, full of enthusiasm, Maternus had hardly finished when Vipstanus Messala entered his room, and, from the earnest expression on each face, he conjectured that their conversation was unusually serious. Have I, he asked, come among you unseasonably, while you are engaged in private deliberation, or the preparation of some case? By no means, by no means, said Secundus. Indeed I could wish you had come sooner, for you would have been delighted with the very elaborate arguments of our friend Aper, in which he urged Maternus to apply all his ability and industry to the pleading of causes, and then too with Maternus's apology for his poems in a lively speech, which as suited a poet's defence, was uncommonly spirited, and more like poetry than oratory. For my part, he replied, I should have been infinitely charmed by the discourse, and I am delighted to find that you excellent men, the orators of our age, instead of exercising your talents simply on law-business and rhetorical studies, also engage in discussions which not only strengthen the intellect but also draw from learning and from letters a pleasure most exquisite both to you who discuss such subjects and to those too whose ears your words may reach. Hence the world, I see, is as much pleased with you, Secundus, for having by your life of Julius Asiaticus given it the promise of more such books, as it is with Aper for having not yet retired from the disputes of the schools, and for choosing to employ his leisure after the fashion of modern rhetoricians rather than of the old orators. > Latin: 14. Vixdum finierat Maternus, concitatus et velut instinctus, cum Vipstanus Messalla cubiculum eius ingressus est, suspicatusque ex ipsa intentione singulorum altiorem inter eos esse sermonem, 'num parum tempestivus' inquit 'interveni secretum consilium et causae alicuius meditationem tractantibus?' 'Minime, minime' inquit Secundus, 'atque adeo vellem maturius intervenisses; delectasset enim te et Apri nostri accuratissimus sermo, cum Maternum ut omne ingenium ac studium suum ad causas agendas converteret exhortatus est, et Materni pro carminibus suis laeta, utque poetas defendi decebat, audentior et poetarum quam oratorum similior oratio.' 'Me vero' inquit 'et sermo iste infinita voluptate adfecisset, atque id ipsum delectat, quod vos, viri optimi et temporum nostrorum oratores, non forensibus tantum negotiis et declamatorio studio ingenia vestra exercetis, sed eius modi etiam disputationes adsumitis, quae et ingenium alunt et eruditionis ac litterarum iucundissimum oblectamentum cum vobis, qui ista disputatis, adferunt, tum etiam iis, ad quorum auris pervenerint. itaque hercule non minus probari video in te, Secunde, quod Iuli Africani vitam componendo spem hominibus fecisti plurium eius modi librorum, quam in Apro, quod nondum ab scholasticis controversiis recessit et otium suum mavult novorum rhetorum more quam veterum oratorum consumere.' [¶14] 15. Upon this Aper replied, You still persist, Messala, in admiring only what is old and antique and in sneering at and disparaging the culture of our own day. I have often heard this sort of talk from you, when, forgetting the eloquence of yourself and your brother, you argued that nobody in this age is an orator. And you did this, I believe, with the more audacity because you were not afraid of a reputation for ill-nature, seeing that the glory which others concede to you, you deny to yourself. I feel no penitence, said Messala, for such talk, nor do I believe that Secundus or Maternus or you yourself, Aper, think differently, though now and then you argue for the opposite view. I could wish that one of you were prevailed on to investigate and describe to us the reasons of this vast difference. I often inquire into them by myself. That which consoles some minds, to me increases the difficulty. For I perceive that even with the Greeks it has happened that there is a greater distance between Aeschines and Demosthenes on the one hand, and your friend Nicetes or any other orator who shakes Ephesus or Mitylene with a chorus of rhetoricians and their noisy applause, on the other, than that which separates Afer, Africanus, or yourselves from Cicero or Asinius. > Latin: 15. Tum Aper: 'non desinis, Messalla, vetera tantum et antiqua mirari, nostrorum autem temporum studia inridere atque contemnere. nam hunc tuum sermonem saepe excepi, cum oblitus et tuae et fratris tui eloquentiae neminem hoc tempore oratorem esse contenderes, eo, credo, audacius, quod malignitatis opinionem non verebaris, cum eam gloriam, quam tibi alii concedunt, ipse tibi denegares.' 'Neque illius' inquit 'sermonis mei paenitentiam ago, neque aut Secundum aut Maternum aut te ipsum, Aper, quamquam interdum in contrarium disputes, aliter sentire credo. ac velim impetratum ab aliquo vestrum ut causas huius infinitae differentiae scrutetur ac reddat, quas mecum ipse plerumque conquiro. et quod quibusdam solacio est, mihi auget quaestionem, quia video etiam Graecis accidisse ut longius absit ⟨ab⟩ Aeschine et Demosthene Sacerdos ille Nicetes, et si quis alius Ephesum vel Mytilenas concentu scholasticorum et clamoribus quatit, quam Afer aut Africanus aut vos ipsi a Cicerone aut Asinio recessistis.' [¶15] 16. The question you have raised, said Secundus, is a great one and quite worthy of discussion. But who has a better claim to unravel it than yourself, you who to profound learning and transcendent ability have added reflection and study? I will open my mind to you, replied Messala, if first I can prevail on you to give me your assistance in our discussion. I can answer for two of us, said Maternus; Secundus and myself will take the part which we understand you have not so much omitted as left to us. Aper usually dissents, as you have just said, and he has clearly for some time been girding himself for the attack, and cannot bear with patience our union on behalf of the merits of the ancients. Assuredly, said Aper, I will not allow our age to be condemned, unheard and undefended, by this conspiracy of yours. First, however, I will ask you whom you call ancients, or what period of orators you limit by your definition? When I hear of ancients, I understand men of the past, born ages ago; I have in my eye Ulysses and Nestor, whose time is about thirteen hundred years before our day. But you bring forward Demosthenes and Hyperides who flourished, as we know, in the period of Philip and Alexander, a period, however, which they both outlived. Hence we see that not much more than four hundred years has intervened between our own era and that of Demosthenes. If you measure this space of time by the frailty of human life, it perhaps seems long; if by the course of ages and by the thought of this boundless universe, it is extremely short and is very near us. For indeed, if, as Cicero says in his Hortensius, the great and the true year is that in which the position of the heavens and of the stars at any particular moment recurs, and if that year embraces twelve thousand nine hundred and ninety four of what we call years, then your Demosthenes, whom you represent as so old and ancient, began his existence not only in the same year, but almost in the same month as ourselves. > Latin: 16. 'Magnam' inquit Secundus 'et dignam tractatu quaestionem movisti. sed quis eam iustius explicabit quam tu, ad cuius summam eruditionem et praestantissimum ingenium cura quoque et meditatio accessit?' Et Messalla 'aperiam' inquit 'cogitationes meas, si illud a vobis ante impetravero, ut vos quoque sermonem hunc nostrum adiuvetis.' 'Pro duobus' inquit Maternus 'promitto: nam et ego et Secundus exsequemur eas partis, quas intellexerimus te non tam omisisse quam nobis reliquisse. Aprum enim solere dissentire et tu paulo ante dixisti et ipse satis manifestus est iam dudum in contrarium accingi nec aequo animo perferre hanc nostram pro antiquorum laude concordiam.' 'Non enim' inquit Aper 'inauditum et indefensum saeculum nostrum patiar hac vestra conspiratione damnari: sed hoc primum interrogabo, quos vocetis antiquos, quam oratorum aetatem significatione ista determinetis. ego enim cum audio antiquos, quosdam veteres et olim natos intellego, ac mihi versantur ante oculos Ulixes ac Nestor, quorum aetas mille fere et trecentis annis saeculum nostrum antecedit: vos autem Demosthenem et Hyperidem profertis, quos satis constat Philippi et Alexandri temporibus floruisse, ita tamen ut utrique superstites essent. ex quo apparet non multo pluris quam trecentos annos interesse inter nostram et Demosthenis aetatem. quod spatium temporis si ad infirmitatem corporum nostrorum referas, fortasse longum videatur; si ad naturam saeculorum ac respectum inmensi huius aevi, perquam breve et in proximo est. nam si, ut Cicero in Hortensio scribit, is est magnus et verus annus, quo eadem positio caeli siderumque, quae cum maxime est, rursum existet, isque annus horum quos nos vocamus annorum duodecim milia nongentos quinquaginta quattuor complectitur, incipit Demosthenes vester, quem vos veterem et antiquum fingitis, non solum eodem anno quo nos, sed etiam eodem mense extitisse.