779a. instead of securing their safety by keeping watch night and day, it tempts them to believe that their safety is ensured if they are fenced in with walls and gates and go to sleep, like men born to shirk toil, little knowing that ease is really the fruit of toil, whereas a new crop of toils is the inevitable outcome, as I think, of dishonorable ease and sloth. But if men really must have a wall, then the building of the private houses must be arranged from the start in such a way that the whole city may form a single wall; all the houses must have good walls, built regularly and in a similar style, facing the roads, so that the whole city will have the form of a single house, which will render its appearance not unpleasing, besides being far and away the best plan for ensuring safety and ease for defence.
779a. ἐκ ῥᾳστώνης δέ γε, οἶμαι, τῆς αἰσχρᾶς οἱ πόνοι καὶ ῥᾳθυμίας πεφύκασι γίγνεσθαι πάλιν. ἀλλʼ εἰ δὴ τεῖχός γέ τι χρεὼν ἀνθρώποις εἶναι, τὰς οἰκοδομίας χρὴ τὰς τῶν ἰδίων οἰκήσεων οὕτως ἐξ ἀρχῆς βάλλεσθαι, ὅπως ἂν ᾖ πᾶσα ἡ πόλις ἓν τεῖχος, ὁμαλότητί τε καὶ ὁμοιότησιν εἰς τὰς ὁδοὺς πασῶν τῶν οἰκήσεων ἐχουσῶν εὐέρκειαν, ἰδεῖν τε οὐκ ἀηδὲς μιᾶς οἰκίας σχῆμα ἐχούσης αὐτῆς, εἴς τε τὴν τῆς φυλακῆς ῥᾳστώνην ὅλῳ καὶ παντὶ πρὸς σωτηρίαν γίγνοιτʼ ἂν διάφορος.
779b. To see that the original buildings remain will fittingly be the special charge of the inmates; and the city-stewards should supervise them, and compel by fines those who are negligent, and also watch over the cleanliness of everything in the city, and prevent any private person from encroaching on State property either by buildings or diggings. These officers must also keep a watch over the proper flowing of the rain-water, and over all other matters, whether within or without the city, that it is right for them to manage. All such details—and all else that the lawgiver is unable to deal with and omits— the Law-wardens shall regulate by supplementary decrees, taking account of the practical requirements.
779b. τούτων δέ, ὡς ἂν μένῃ τὰ κατʼ ἀρχὰς οἰκοδομηθέντα, μέλειν μὲν μάλιστα τοῖς ἐνοικοῦσι πρέπον ἂν εἴη, τοὺς δὲ ἀστυνόμους ἐπιμελεῖσθαι καὶ προσαναγκάζοντας τὸν ὀλιγωροῦντα ζημιοῦντας, καὶ πάντων δὴ τῶν κατὰ τὸ ἄστυ καθαρότητός τʼ ἐπιμελεῖσθαι, καὶ ὅπως ἰδιώτης μηδεὶς μηδὲν τῶν τῆς πόλεως μήτε οἰκοδομήμασι μήτε οὖν ὀρύγμασιν ἐπιλήψεται. καὶ δὴ καὶ ὑδάτων τῶν ἐκ Διὸς εὐροίας τούτους ἐπιμελεῖσθαι χρεών, καὶ ὅσα ἐντὸς πόλεως ἢ ὁπόσα ἔξω πρέπον ἂν οἰκεῖν εἴη· ταῦτα δὲ πάντα συνιδόντες ταῖς χρείαις οἱ νομοφύλακες ἐπινομοθετούντων καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ὁπόσα ἂν ὁ νόμος ἐκλείπῃ διʼ ἀπορίαν.
779d. And now that these buildings and those of the market-place, and the gymnasia, and all the schools have been erected and await their inmates, and the theaters their spectators, let us proceed to the subject which comes next after marriage, taking our legislation in order.
779d. ὅτε δὲ ταῦτά τε καὶ τὰ περὶ ἀγορὰν οἰκοδομήματα καὶ τὰ περὶ τὰ γυμνάσια καὶ πάντα ὅσα διδασκαλεῖα κατεσκευασμένα περιμένει τοὺς φοιτητὰς καὶ θεατὰς θέατρα, πορευώμεθα ἐπὶ τὰ μετὰ τοὺς γάμους, τῆς νομοθεσίας ἑξῆς ἐχόμενοι.
Clin. By all means.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Ath. Let us regard the marriage ceremony as now completed, Clinias; next will come the period before child-birth, which will extend to a full year: how the bride and bridegroom ought to pass this time in a State that will be unlike most other States,—that is to be our next theme, and it is not the easiest of things to explain; we have uttered not a few hard sayings before, but none of them all will the mass find harder to accept than this.
ΑΘ. γάμοι μὲν τοίνυν ἡμῖν ἔστωσαν γεγονότες, ὦ Κλεινία· δίαιτα δὲ πρὸ παιδογονίας οὐκ ἐλάττων ἐνιαυσίας γίγνοιτʼ ἂν τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο, ἣν δὴ τίνα τρόπον χρὴ ζῆν νυμφίον καὶ νύμφην ἐν πόλει διαφερούσῃ τῶν πολλῶν ἐσομένῃ—τὸ δὴ τῶν νῦν εἰρημένων ἐχόμενον—εἰπεῖν οὐ πάντων εὐκολώτατον, ἀλλὰ ὄντων οὐκ ὀλίγων τῶν ἔμπροσθεν τοιούτων, τοῦτο ἔτι ἐκείνων τῶν πολλῶν δυσχερέστερον ἀποδέχεσθαι τῷ πλήθει.
779e. All the same, what we believe to be right and true must by all means be stated, Clinias.
779e. τό γε μὴν δοκοῦν ὀρθὸν καὶ ἀληθὲς εἶναι πάντως ῥητέον, ὦ Κλεινία.
Clin. Certainly.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Ath. Whoever proposes to publish laws for States, regulating the conduct of the citizens in State affairs and public matters, and deems that there is no need to make laws for their private conduct, even in necessary matters, but that everyone should be allowed to spend his day just as he pleases, instead of its being compulsory for everything, public and private, to be done by a regular rule, and supposes that, if he leaves private conduct unregulated by law, the citizens will still consent to regulate their public and civil life by law—this man is wrong in his proposal. For what reason have I said this? For this reason,—because we shall assert that the married people must take their meals at the public messes neither more nor less than they did during the time preceding marriage.
ΑΘ. ὅστις δὴ διανοεῖται πόλεσιν ἀποφαίνεσθαι νόμους, πῇ τὰ δημόσια καὶ κοινὰ αὐτοὺς χρὴ ζῆν πράττοντας, τῶν δὲ ἰδίων ὅσον ἀνάγκη μηδὲ οἴεται δεῖν, ἐξουσίαν δὲ ἑκάστοις εἶναι τὴν ἡμέραν ζῆν ὅπως ἂν ἐθέλῃ, καὶ μὴ πάντα διὰ τάξεως δεῖν γίγνεσθαι, προέμενος δὲ τὰ ἴδια ἀνομοθέτητα, ἡγεῖται τά γε κοινὰ καὶ δημόσια ἐθελήσειν αὐτοὺς ζῆν διὰ νόμων, οὐκ ὀρθῶς διανοεῖται. τίνος δὴ χάριν ταῦτα εἴρηται; τοῦδε, ὅτι φήσομεν δεῖν ἡμῖν τοὺς νυμφίους μηδὲν διαφερόντως μηδὲ ἧττον ἐν συσσιτίοις τὴν δίαιταν ποιεῖσθαι τοῦ πρὸ τῶν γάμων χρόνου γενομένου.
780b. When the customs of the public mess first arose in your countries—probably dictated by a war or by some event of equal potency, when you were short of men and in dire straits,—it seemed an astonishing institution; but after you had had experience of these public messes and had been obliged to adopt them, the custom seemed to contribute admirably towards security;
780b. καὶ τοῦτο μὲν δὴ θαυμαστὸν ὄν, ὅτε κατʼ ἀρχὰς πρῶτον ἐγένετο ἐν τοῖς παρʼ ὑμῖν τόποις, πολέμου τινὸς αὐτό, ὥς γʼ εἰκός, νομοθετήσαντος ἤ τινος ἑτέρου τὴν αὐτὴν δύναμιν ἔχοντος πράγματος ἐν ὀλιγανθρωπίαις ὑπὸ πολλῆς ἀπορίας ἐχομένοις, γευσαμένοις δὲ καὶ ἀναγκασθεῖσι χρήσασθαι τοῖς συσσιτίοις ἔδοξεν μέγα διαφέρειν εἰς σωτηρίαν τὸ νόμιμον, καὶ κατέστη δὴ τρόπῳ τινὶ τοιούτῳ τὸ ἐπιτήδευμα ὑμῖν τὸ τῶν συσσιτίων.
780c. and in some such way as that the public mess came to be one of your established institutions.Clin. That is likely enough.Ath. So, though this was once, as I said, an astonishing and alarming institution to impose on people, a man who tried to impose it as a law nowadays would not find it an equally difficult task. But the practice which follows on this institution, and which, if carried out, would be really successful,—although at present it nowhere is carried out, and so causes the lawgiver (if he tries) to be practically carding his wool (as the proverb has it) into the fire, and laboring in vain at an endless tale of toils,— this practice it is neither easy to state nor, when stated, to carry into effect.
780c. ΚΛ. ἔοικε γοῦν.ΑΘ. ὃ δὴ ἔλεγον, ὅτι θαυμαστὸν ὂν τοῦτό ποτε καὶ φοβερὸν ἐπιτάξαι τισίν, νῦν οὐχ ὁμοίως τῷ προστάττοντι δυσχερὲς ἂν εἴη νομοθετεῖν αὐτό· τὸ δʼ ἑξῆς τούτῳ, πεφυκός τε ὀρθῶς ἂν γίγνεσθαι γιγνόμενον, νῦν τε οὐδαμῇ γιγνόμενον, ὀλίγου τε ποιοῦν τὸν νομοθέτην, τὸ τῶν παιζόντων, εἰς πῦρ ξαίνειν καὶ μυρία ἕτερα τοιαῦτα ἀνήνυτα ποιοῦντα δρᾶν, οὐ ῥᾴδιον οὔτʼ εἰπεῖν οὔτʼ εἰπόντα ἀποτελεῖν.
780d. Clin. Why do you show so much hesitation, Stranger, in mentioning this?
780d. ΚΛ. τί δὴ τοῦτο, ὦ ξένε, ἐπιχειρῶν λέγειν ἔοικας σφόδρα ἀποκνεῖν;
Ath. Listen now, so that we may not spend much time on the matter to no purpose. Everything that takes place in the State, if it participates in order and law, confers all kinds of blessings; but most things that are either without order or badly-ordered counteract the effects of the well-ordered. And it is into this plight that the practice we are discussing has fallen. In your case, Clinias and Megillus, public meals for men are, as I said, rightly and admirably established by a divine necessity, but for women this institution is left, quite wrongly, unprescribed by law, nor are public meals for them brought
ΑΘ. ἀκούοιτʼ ἄν, ἵνα μὴ πολλὴ διατριβὴ γίγνηται περὶ τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ μάτην. πᾶν μὲν γάρ, ὅτιπερ ἂν τάξεως καὶ νόμου μετέχον ἐν πόλει γίγνηται, πάντα ἀγαθὰ ἀπεργάζεται, τῶν δὲ ἀτάκτων ἢ τῶν κακῶς ταχθέντων λύει τὰ πολλὰ τῶν εὖ τεταγμένων ἄλλα ἕτερα. οὗ δὴ καὶ νῦν ἐφέστηκεν πέρι τὸ λεγόμενον. ὑμῖν γάρ, ὦ Κλεινία καὶ Μέγιλλε, τὰ μὲν περὶ τοὺς ἄνδρας συσσίτια καλῶς ἅμα καί, ὅπερ εἶπον, θαυμαστῶς καθέστηκεν ἐκ θείας τινὸς ἀνάγκης, τὸ δὲ περὶ τὰς γυναῖκας
781a. to the light of day; Ath. instead of this, the female sex, that very section of humanity which, owing to its frailty, is in other respects most secretive and intriguing, is abandoned to its disorderly condition through the perverse compliance of the lawgiver. Owing to your neglect of that sex, you have had an influx of many consequences which would have been much better than they now are if they had been under legal control. For it is not merely, as one might suppose, a matter affecting one-half of our whole task—this matter of neglecting to regulate women,— but in as far as females are inferior in goodness to males, just in so far it affects more than the half.
781a. οὐδαμῶς ὀρθῶς ἀνομοθέτητον μεθεῖται καὶ οὐκ εἰς τὸ φῶς ἦκται τὸ τῆς συσσιτίας αὐτῶν ἐπιτήδευμα, ΑΘ. ἀλλʼ ὃ καὶ ἄλλως γένος ἡμῶν τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαθραιότερον μᾶλλον καὶ ἐπικλοπώτερον ἔφυ, τὸ θῆλυ, διὰ τὸ ἀσθενές, οὐκ ὀρθῶς τοῦτο εἴξαντος τοῦ νομοθέτου δύστακτον ὂν ἀφείθη. διὰ δὲ τούτου μεθειμένου πολλὰ ὑμῖν παρέρρει, πολὺ ἄμεινον ἂν ἔχοντα, εἰ νόμων ἔτυχεν, ἢ τὰ νῦν· οὐ γὰρ ἥμισυ μόνον ἐστίν, ὡς δόξειεν ἄν, τὸ περὶ τὰς γυναῖκας ἀκοσμήτως περιορώμενον, ὅσῳ δὲ ἡ θήλεια ἡμῖν φύσις ἐστὶ πρὸς ἀρετὴν χείρων τῆς τῶν ἀρρένων, τοσούτῳ διαφέρει πρὸς τὸ πλέον ἢ διπλάσιον εἶναι.
781b. It is better, then, for the welfare of the State to revise and reform this institution, and to regulate all the institutions for both men and women in common. At present, however, the human race is so far from having reached this happy position, that a man of discretion must actually avoid all mention of the practice in districts and States where even the existence of public meals is absolutely without any formal recognition.
781b. τοῦτʼ οὖν ἐπαναλαβεῖν καὶ ἐπανορθώσασθαι καὶ πάντα συντάξασθαι κοινῇ γυναιξί τε καὶ ἀνδράσιν ἐπιτηδεύματα βέλτιον πρὸς πόλεως εὐδαιμονίαν· νῦν δὲ οὕτως ἦκται τὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων γένος οὐδαμῶς εἰς τοῦτο εὐτυχῶς, ὥστε οὐδὲ μνησθῆναι περὶ αὐτοῦ ἐν ἄλλοις γʼ ἐστὶν τόποις καὶ πόλεσιν νοῦν ἔχοντος, ὅπου μηδὲ συσσίτια ὑπάρχει τὸ παράπαν δεδογμένα κατὰ πόλιν εἶναι.
781c. How then shall one attempt, without being laughed at, actually to compel women to take food and drink publicly and exposed to the view of all? The female sex would more readily endure anything rather than this: accustomed as they are to live a retired and private life, women will use every means to resist being led out into the light, and they will prove much too strong for the lawgiver.
781c. πόθεν δή τίς γε ἔργῳ μὴ καταγελάστως ἐπιχειρήσει γυναῖκας προσβιάζεσθαι τὴν σίτων καὶ ποτῶν ἀνάλωσιν φανερὰν θεωρεῖσθαι; τούτου γὰρ οὐκ ἔστιν ὅτι χαλεπώτερον ἂν ὑπομείνειεν τοῦτο τὸ γένος· εἰθισμένον γὰρ δεδυκὸς καὶ σκοτεινὸν ζῆν, ἀγόμενον δʼ εἰς φῶς βίᾳ πᾶσαν ἀντίτασιν ἀντιτεῖνον, πολὺ κρατήσει τοῦ νομοθέτου.
781d. So that elsewhere, as I said, women would not so much as listen to the mention of the right rule without shrieks of indignation; but in our State perhaps they will. So if we agree that our discourse about the polity as a whole must not—so far as theory goes—prove abortive, I am willing to explain how this institution is good and fitting, if you are equally desirous to listen, but otherwise to leave it alone.
781d. τοῦτʼ οὖν ἄλλοθι μέν, ὅπερ εἶπον, οὐδʼ ἂν τὸν λόγον ὑπομείνειε τὸν ὀρθὸν ῥηθέντα ἄνευ πάσης βοῆς, ἐνθάδε δὲ ἴσως ἄν. εἰ δὴ δοκεῖ λόγου γʼ ἕνεκα μὴ ἀτυχῆ τὸν περὶ πάσης τῆς πολιτείας γενέσθαι λόγον, ἐθέλω λέγειν ὡς ἀγαθόν ἐστι καὶ πρέπον, εἰ καὶ σφῷν συνδοκεῖ ἀκούειν, εἰ δὲ μή, ἐᾶν.
Clin. Nay, Stranger, we are both inexpressibly desirous to listen.
ΚΛ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ ξένε, θαυμαστῶς τό γε ἀκοῦσαι νῷν πάντως που συνδοκεῖ.
Ath. Let us listen, then. And do not be surprised if you find me taking the subject up again from an early point. For we are now enjoying leisure, and there is no pressing reason to hinder us from considering laws from all possible points of view.
ΑΘ. ἀκούωμεν δή. θαυμάσητε δὲ μηδὲν ἐὰν ὑμῖν ἄνωθέν ποθεν ἐπιχειρεῖν δόξω·
781e. Clin. Very true. Ath. Let us, then, revert again to our first statements. Thus much at least every man ought to understand,—that either the human race never had a beginning at all, and will never have an end, but always was and always will be, or else it must have been in existence an incalculable length of time from the date when it first began.
781e. σχολῆς γὰρ ἀπολαύομεν καὶ οὐδὲν ἡμᾶς ἐστὶ τὸ κατεπεῖγον τὸ μὴ πάντῃ πάντως σκοπεῖν τὰ περὶ τοὺς νόμους.ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς εἴρηκας. ΑΘ. πάλιν τοίνυν ἐπὶ τὰ πρῶτα ἐπαναχωρήσωμεν λεχθέντα. εὖ γὰρ δὴ τό γε τοσοῦτον χρὴ πάντʼ ἄνδρα συννοεῖν, ὡς ἡ τῶν ἀνθρώπων γένεσις ἢ τὸ παράπαν ἀρχὴν οὐδεμίαν εἴληχεν οὐδʼ ἕξει ποτέ γε τελευτήν, ἀλλʼ ἦν τε ἀεὶ καὶ ἔσται πάντως, ἢ μῆκός τι τῆς ἀρχῆς ἀφʼ οὗ γέγονεν ἀμήχανον ἂν χρόνον ὅσον γεγονὸς ἂν εἴη.
782a. Clin. Undoubtedly.
782a. ΚΛ. τί μήν;
Ath. Well then, do we not suppose that all the world over and in all sorts of ways there have been risings and fallings of States, and institutions of every variety of order and disorder, and appetites for food—both meats and drinks—of every kind, and all sorts of variations in the seasons, during which it is probable that the animals underwent innumerable changes?
ΑΘ. τί οὖν; πόλεων συστάσεις καὶ φθοράς, καὶ ἐπιτηδεύματα παντοῖα τάξεώς τε καὶ ἀταξίας, καὶ βρώσεως καὶ πωμάτων τε ἅμα καὶ βρωμάτων ἐπιθυμήματα παντοδαπά, πάντως καὶ περὶ πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν ἆρʼ οὐκ οἰόμεθα γεγονέναι, καὶ στροφὰς ὡρῶν παντοίας, ἐν αἷς τὰ ζῷα μεταβάλλειν αὑτῶν παμπληθεῖς μεταβολὰς εἰκός;
782b. Clin. Certainly.
782b. ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Ath. Are we to believe, then, that vines, not previously existing, appeared at a certain stage; and olives, likewise, and the gifts of Demeter and Kore? And that some Triptolemus was the minister of such fruits? And during the period that these fruits were as yet non-existent, must we not suppose that the animals turned, as they do now, to feeding on one another.
ΑΘ. τί οὖν; πιστεύομεν ἀμπέλους τε φανῆναί πού ποτε πρότερον οὐκ οὔσας; ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ ἐλάας καὶ τὰ Δήμητρός τε καὶ Κόρης δῶρα; Τριπτόλεμόν τέ τινα τῶν τοιούτων γενέσθαι διάκονον; ἐν ᾧ δὲ μὴ ταῦτα ἦν τῷ χρόνῳ, μῶν οὐκ οἰόμεθα τὰ ζῷα, καθάπερ νῦν, ἐπὶ τὴν ἀλλήλων ἐδωδὴν τρέπεσθαι;
Clin. Of course.
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
782c. Ath. The custom of men sacrificing one another is, in fact, one that survives even now among many peoples; whereas amongst others we hear of how the opposite custom existed, when they were forbidden so much as to eat an ox, and their offerings to the gods consisted, not of animals, but of cakes of meal and grain steeped in honey, and other such bloodless sacrifices, and from flesh they abstained as though it were unholy to eat it or to stain with blood the altars of the gods; instead of that, those of us men who then existed lived what is called an “Orphic life,” keeping wholly to inanimate food and, contrariwise, abstaining wholly from things animate.
782c. ΑΘ. τὸ δὲ μὴν θύειν ἀνθρώπους ἀλλήλους ἔτι καὶ νῦν παραμένον ὁρῶμεν πολλοῖς· καὶ τοὐναντίον ἀκούομεν ἐν ἄλλοις, ὅτε οὐδὲ βοὸς ἐτόλμων μὲν γεύεσθαι, θύματά τε οὐκ ἦν τοῖς θεοῖσι ζῷα, πέλανοι δὲ καὶ μέλιτι καρποὶ δεδευμένοι καὶ τοιαῦτα ἄλλα ἁγνὰ θύματα, σαρκῶν δʼ ἀπείχοντο ὡς οὐχ ὅσιον ὂν ἐσθίειν οὐδὲ τοὺς τῶν θεῶν βωμοὺς αἵματι μιαίνειν, ἀλλὰ Ὀρφικοί τινες λεγόμενοι βίοι ἐγίγνοντο ἡμῶν τοῖς τότε, ἀψύχων μὲν ἐχόμενοι πάντων, ἐμψύχων δὲ τοὐναντίον πάντων ἀπεχόμενοι.
782d. Clin. Certainly what you say is widely reported and easy to credit.
782d. ΚΛ. καὶ σφόδρα λεγόμενά τʼ εἴρηκας καὶ πιστεύεσθαι πιθανά.
Ath. Someone might ask us— “For what purpose have you now said all this?”
ΑΘ. πρὸς οὖν δὴ τί ταῦτα, εἴποι τις ἄν, ὑμῖν πάντʼ ἐρρήθη τὰ νῦν;
Clin. A correct surmise, Stranger.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς ὑπέλαβες, ὦ ξένε.
Ath. So I will try, if I can, Clinias, to explain the subject which comes next in order.
ΑΘ. καὶ τοίνυν, ἐὰν δύνωμαι, τὰ τούτοις ἑξῆς, ὦ Κλεινία, πειράσομαι φράζειν.
Clin. Say on.
ΚΛ. λέγοις ἄν.
Ath. I observe that with men all things depend on a threefold need and desire, wherein if they proceed rightly, the result is goodness, if badly, the opposite.
ΑΘ. ὁρῶ πάντα τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἐκ τριττῆς χρείας καὶ ἐπιθυμίας ἠρτημένα, διʼ ὧν ἀρετή τε αὐτοῖς ἀγομένοις ὀρθῶς καὶ τοὐναντίον ἀποβαίνει κακῶς ἀχθεῖσιν.
782e. Of these desires they possess those for food and drink as soon as they are born; and about the whole sphere of food every creature has an instinctive lust, and is full of craving, and quite deaf to any suggestion that they ought to do anything else than satisfy their tastes and desires for all such objects, and thus rid themselves entirely of all pain.
782e. ταῦτα δʼ ἐστὶν ἐδωδὴ μὲν καὶ πόσις εὐθὺς γενομένοις, ἣν πέρι ἅπασαν πᾶν ζῷον ἔμφυτον ἔρωτα ἔχον, μεστὸν οἴστρου τέ ἐστιν καὶ ἀνηκουστίας τοῦ λέγοντος ἄλλο τι δεῖν πράττειν πλὴν τὰς ἡδονὰς καὶ ἐπιθυμίας τὰς περὶ ἅπαντα ταῦτα ἀποπληροῦντα, λύπης τῆς ἁπάσης ἀεὶ δεῖν σφᾶς ἀπαλλάττειν· ΑΘ. τρίτη δὲ ἡμῖν καὶ μεγίστη χρεία καὶ ἔρως ὀξύτατος ὕστατος μὲν ὁρμᾶται, διαπυρωτάτους δὲ τοὺς ἀνθρώπους μανίαις ἀπεργάζεται πάντως, ὁ περὶ τὴν τοῦ γένους σπορὰν ὕβρει πλείστῃ καόμενος.
783a. Ath. Thirdly comes our greatest need and keenest lust, which, though the latest to emerge, influences the soul of men with most raging frenzy—the lust for the sowing of offspring that burns with utmost violence. These three morbid states we must direct towards what is most good, instead of what is (nominally) most pleasant, trying to check them by means of the three greatest forces—fear, law, and true reasoning,—reinforced by the Muses and the Gods of Games, so as to quench thereby their increase and inflow.
783a. ἃ δὴ δεῖ τρία νοσήματα, τρέποντα εἰς τὸ βέλτιστον παρὰ τὸ λεγόμενον ἥδιστον, τρισὶ μὲν τοῖς μεγίστοις πειρᾶσθαι κατέχειν, φόβῳ καὶ νόμῳ καὶ τῷ ἀληθεῖ λόγῳ, προσχρωμένους μέντοι Μούσαις τε καὶ ἀγωνίοισι θεοῖς, σβεννύντων τὴν αὔξην τε καὶ ἐπιρροήν.παίδων δὲ δὴ γένεσιν μετὰ τοὺς γάμους θῶμεν, καὶ μετὰ γένεσιν τροφὴν καὶ παιδείαν·
783b. So let us place the subject of the production of children next after that of marriage, and after their production, their nurture and education. If our discourse proceeds on these lines, possibly each of our laws will attain completion, and when we come to the public meals, by approaching these at close quarters we shall probably discern more clearly whether such associations ought to be for men only, or for women as well; and thus we shall not only prescribe the preliminaries that are still without legal regulation, and place them as fences before the common meals, but also, as I said just now, we shall discuss more exactly the character of the common meals, and thus be more likely to prescribe for them laws that are suitable and fitting.
783b. καὶ τάχʼ ἂν οὕτω προϊόντων τῶν λόγων ὅ τε νόμος ἡμῖν ἕκαστος περαίνοιτο εἰς τοὔμπροσθεν ἐπὶ συσσίτια ἡνίκα ἀφικόμεθα—τὰς τοιαύτας κοινωνίας εἴτε ἄρα γυναικῶν εἴτε ἀνδρῶν δεῖ μόνων γίγνεσθαι, προσμείξαντες αὐτοῖς ἐγγύθεν ἴσως μᾶλλον κατοψόμεθα—τά τε ἐπίπροσθεν αὐτῶν, ἔτι νῦν ὄντα ἀνομοθέτητα, τάξαντες αὐτὰ ἐπίπροσθεν ποιησόμεθα, καὶ ὅπερ ἐρρήθη νυνδή, κατοψόμεθά τε αὐτὰ ἀκριβέστερον, μᾶλλόν τε τοὺς προσήκοντας αὐτοῖς καὶ πρέποντας νόμους ἂν θείημεν.
783c. Clin. You are perfectly right.
783c. ΚΛ. ὀρθότατα λέγεις.
Ath. Let us, then, bear in mind the things we mentioned a moment ago; for probably we shall need them all presently.
ΑΘ. φυλάξωμεν τοίνυν τῇ μνήμῃ τὰ νυνδὴ λεχθέντα· ἴσως γὰρ χρείαν ποτʼ αὐτῶν πάντων ἕξομεν.
Clin. What are the things you bid us remember?
ΚΛ. τὰ ποῖα δὴ διακελεύῃ;
Ath. Those we distinguished by the three terms we used: we spoke, you recollect, of eating, secondly of drinking, and thirdly of sexual excitement.
ΑΘ. ἃ τοῖς τρισὶ διωριζόμεθα ῥήμασι· βρῶσιν μὲν ἐλέγομέν που, καὶ δεύτερον πόσιν, καὶ ἀφροδισίων δέ τινα διαπτόησιν τρίτον.
783d. Clin. We shall certainly remember the things you now bid us, Stranger.
783d. ΚΛ. πάντως, ὦ ξένε, μεμνησόμεθά που ⟨ὧν⟩ τὰ νῦν διακελεύῃ.
Ath. Very good. Let us now come to the nuptials, so as to instruct them how and in what manner they ought to produce children, and, if we fail to persuade them, to threaten them by certain laws.
ΑΘ. καλῶς. ἔλθωμεν δʼ ἐπὶ τὰ νυμφικά, διδάξοντές τε αὐτοὺς πῶς χρὴ καὶ τίνα τρόπον τοὺς παῖδας ποιεῖσθαι, καὶ ἐὰν ἄρα μὴ πείθωμεν, ἀπειλήσοντές τισιν νόμοις.
Ath. The bride and bridegroom must set their minds to produce for the State children of the greatest possible goodness and beauty.
ΑΘ. νύμφην χρὴ διανοεῖσθαι καὶ νυμφίον ὡς ὅτι καλλίστους καὶ ἀρίστους εἰς δύναμιν ἀποδειξομένους παῖδας τῇ πόλει.
783e. All people that are partners in any action produce results that are fair and good whensoever they apply their minds to themselves and the action, but the opposite results when either they have no minds or fail to apply them.
783e. πάντες δʼ ἄνθρωποι κοινωνοὶ πάσης πράξεως, ἡνίκα μὲν ἂν προσέχωσιν αὑτοῖς τε καὶ τῇ πράξει τὸν νοῦν, πάντα καλὰ καὶ ἀγαθὰ ἀπεργάζονται, μὴ προσέχοντες δὲ ἢ μὴ ἔχοντες νοῦν, τἀναντία.
784. Ath. The bridegroom, therefore, shall apply his mind both to the bride and to the work of procreation, and the bride shall do likewise, especially during the period when they have no children yet born.
784. ΑΘ. προσεχέτω δὴ καὶ ὁ νυμφίος τῇ τε νύμφῃ καὶ τῇ παιδοποιίᾳ τὸν νοῦν, κατὰ ταὐτὰ δὲ καὶ ἡ νύμφη, τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον διαφερόντως ὃν ἂν μήπω παῖδες αὐτοῖς ὦσιν γεγονότες.
784a. In charge of them there shall be the women-inspectors whom we have chosen,—more or fewer of them, according to the number and times of their appointments, decided by the officials; and they shall meet every day at the temple of Eileithyia, for a third of an hour, or more; and at their meetings they shall report to one another any case they may have noticed where any man or woman of the procreative age is devoting his attention to other things instead of to the rules ordained at the marriage sacrifices and ceremonies.
784a. ἐπίσκοποι δʼ ἔστωσαν τούτων ἃς εἱλόμεθα γυναῖκες, πλείους εἴτʼ ἐλάττους, τοῖς ἄρχουσιν ὁπόσας ἂν δοκῇ προστάττειν τε καὶ ὁπόταν, πρὸς τὸ τῆς Εἰλειθυίας ἱερὸν ἑκάστης ἡμέρας συλλεγόμεναι μέχρι τρίτου μέρους ὥρας, οἷ δὴ συλλεχθεῖσαι διαγγελλόντων ἀλλήλαις εἴ τίς τινα ὁρᾷ πρὸς ἄλλʼ ἄττα βλέποντα ἄνδρα ἢ καὶ γυναῖκα τῶν παιδοποιουμένων ἢ πρὸς τὰ τεταγμένα ὑπὸ τῶν ἐν τοῖς γάμοις θυσιῶν τε καὶ ἱερῶν γενομένων.
784b. The period of procreation and supervision shall be ten years and no longer, whenever there is an abundant issue of offspring; but in case any are without issue to the end of this period, they shall take counsel in common to decide what terms are advantageous for both parties, in conjunction with their kindred and the women-officials, and be divorced. If any dispute arises as to what is fitting and advantageous for each party, they shall choose ten of the Law-wardens, and abide by the regulations they shall permit or impose.
784b. ἡ δὲ παιδοποιία καὶ φυλακὴ τῶν παιδοποιουμένων δεκέτις ἔστω, μὴ πλείω δὲ χρόνον, ὅταν εὔροια ᾖ τῆς γενέσεως· ἂν δὲ ἄγονοί τινες εἰς τοῦτον γίγνωνται τὸν χρόνον, μετὰ τῶν οἰκείων καὶ ἀρχουσῶν γυναικῶν διαζεύγνυσθαι κοινῇ βουλευομένους εἰς τὰ πρόσφορα ἑκατέροις. ἐὰν δʼ ἀμφισβήτησίς τις γίγνηται περὶ τῶν ἑκατέροις πρεπόντων καὶ προσφόρων, δέκα τῶν νομοφυλάκων ἑλομένους, οἷς ἂν ἐπιτρέψωσιν οἱ δὲ τάξωσι, τούτοις ἐμμένειν.
784c. The women-inspectors shall enter the houses of the young people, and, partly by threats, partly by admonition, stop them from their sin and folly: if they cannot do so, they shall go and report the case to the Law-wardens, and they shall prevent them. If they also prove unable, they shall inform the State Council, posting up a sworn statement that they are “verily unable to reform So-and-so.” The man that is thus posted up,— if he fails to defeat those who have thus posted him in the law-courts,—shall suffer the following disqualifications: he shall not attend any marriage or children’s birthday feasts, and if he does so, anyone who wishes may with impunity punish him with blows.
784c. εἰσιοῦσαι δʼ εἰς τὰς οἰκίας τῶν νέων αἱ γυναῖκες, τὰ μὲν νουθετοῦσαι, τὰ δὲ καὶ ἀπειλοῦσαι, παυόντων αὐτοὺς τῆς ἁμαρτίας καὶ ἀμαθίας· ἐὰν δʼ ἀδυνατῶσι, πρὸς τοὺς νομοφύλακας ἰοῦσαι φραζόντων, οἱ δʼ εἰργόντων. ἂν δὲ καὶ ἐκεῖνοί πως ἀδυνατήσωσι, πρὸς τὸ δημόσιον ἀποφηνάντων, ἀναγράψαντές τε καὶ ὀμόσαντες ἦ μὴν ἀδυνατεῖν τὸν καὶ τὸν βελτίω ποιεῖν.
784d. The same law shall hold good for the women: the offender shall have no part in women’s excursions, honors, or invitations to weddings or birthday feasts, if she has been similarly posted up as disorderly and has lost her suit. And when they shall have finished producing children according to the laws, if the man have sexual intercourse with a strange woman, or the woman with a man, while the latter are still within the procreative age-limit, they shall be liable to the same penalty as was stated for those still producing children.
784d. ὁ δὲ ἀναγραφεὶς ἄτιμος ἔστω, μὴ ἑλὼν ἐν δικαστηρίῳ τοὺς ἐγγράψαντας, τῶνδε· μήτε γὰρ εἰς γάμους ἴτω μήτε εἰς τὰς τῶν παίδων ἐπιτελειώσεις, ἂν δὲ ἴῃ, πληγαῖς ὁ βουληθεὶς ἀθῷος αὐτὸν κολαζέτω. τὰ αὐτὰ δὲ καὶ περὶ γυναικὸς ἔστω νόμιμα· τῶν ἐξόδων γὰρ τῶν γυναικείων καὶ τιμῶν καὶ τῶν εἰς τοὺς γάμους καὶ γενέθλια τῶν παίδων φοιτήσεων μὴ μετεχέτω, ἐὰν ἀκοσμοῦσα ὡσαύτως ἀναγραφῇ καὶ μὴ ἕλῃ τὴν δίκην. ὅταν δὲ δὴ παῖδας γεννήσωνται κατὰ νόμους, ἐὰν ἀλλοτρίᾳ τις περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα κοινωνῇ γυναικὶ ἢ γυνὴ ἀνδρί, ἐὰν μὲν παιδοποιουμένοις ἔτι, τὰ αὐτὰ ἐπιζήμια αὐτοῖς ἔστω καθάπερ τοῖς ἔτι γεννωμένοις εἴρηται·
785. Ath. Thereafter the man and woman that are sober-minded in these matters shall be well-reputed in every way; but the opposite kind of esteem, or rather disesteem, shall be shown to persons of the opposite character.
785. ΑΘ. μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα ὁ μὲν σωφρονῶν καὶ σωφρονοῦσα εἰς τὰ τοιαῦτα ἔστω πάντα εὐδόκιμος, ὁ δὲ τοὐναντίον ἐναντίως τιμάσθω, μᾶλλον δὲ ἀτιμαζέσθω. καὶ μετριαζόντων μὲν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα τῶν πλειόνων ἀνομοθέτητα σιγῇ κείσθω, ἀκοσμούντων δὲ νομοθετηθέντα ταύτῃ πραττέσθω κατὰ τοὺς τότε τεθέντας νόμους.
785a. Sexual conduct shall lie unmentioned or unprescribed by law when the majority show due propriety therein; but if they are disorderly, then what is thus prescribed shall be executed according to the laws then enacted. For everyone the first year is the beginning of the whole life: it ought to be inscribed as life’s beginning for both boy and girl in their ancestral shrines: beside it, on a whited wall in every phratry, there should be written up the number of the archons who give its number to the year; and the names of the living members of the phratry shall be written always close together, and those of the deceased shall be erased.
785a. βίου μὲν ἀρχὴ τοῦ παντὸς ἑκάστοις ὁ πρῶτος ἐνιαυτός· ὃν γεγράφθαι χρεὼν ἐν ἱεροῖσι πατρῴοις ζωῆς ἀρχή. κόρῳ καὶ κόρῃ παραγεγράφθω δʼ ἐν τοίχῳ λελευκωμένῳ ἐν πάσῃ φρατρίᾳ τὸν ἀριθμὸν τῶν ἀρχόντων τῶν ἐπὶ τοῖς ἔτεσιν ἀριθμουμένων· τῆς δὲ φρατρίας ἀεὶ τοὺς ζῶντας μὲν γεγράφθαι πλησίον, τοὺς δʼ ὑπεκχωροῦντας τοῦ βίου ἐξαλείφειν.
785b. The limit of the marriage-age shall be from sixteen to twenty years—the longest time allowed—for a girl, and for a boy from thirty to thirty-five. The limit for official posts shall be forty for a woman and thirty for a man. For military services the limit shall be from twenty years up to sixty for a man; for women they shall ordain what is possible and fitting in each case, after they have finished bearing children, and up to the age of fifty, in whatever kind of military work it may be thought right to employ their services.
785b. γάμου δὲ ὅρον εἶναι κόρῃ μὲν ἀπὸ ἑκκαίδεκα ἐτῶν εἰς εἴκοσι, τὸν μακρότατον χρόνον ἀφωρισμένον, κόρῳ δὲ ἀπὸ τριάκοντα μέχρι τῶν πέντε καὶ τριάκοντα· εἰς δὲ ἀρχὰς γυναικὶ μὲν τετταράκοντα, ἀνδρὶ δὲ τριάκοντα ἔτη· πρὸς πόλεμον δὲ ἀνδρὶ μὲν εἴκοσι μέχρι τῶν ἑξήκοντα ἐτῶν· γυναικὶ δέ, ἣν ἂν δοκῇ χρείαν δεῖν χρῆσθαι πρὸς τὰ πολεμικά, ἐπειδὰν παῖδας γεννήσῃ, τὸ δυνατὸν καὶ πρέπον ἑκάσταις προστάττειν μέχρι τῶν πεντήκοντα ἐτῶν.
788a. Ath. Now that our children, of both sexes, are born, our proper course will be to deal in the next place with their nurture and education. This is a subject which it is wholly impossible to pass over; but obviously it can be treated more suitably by way of precept and exhortation than by legislation. For in the private life of the family many trivial things are apt to be done which escape general notice,—things which are the result of individual feelings of pain, pleasure, or desire, and which contravene the instructions of the lawgiver; and these will produce in the citizens a multiplicity of contradictory tendencies.
788a. ΑΘ. γενομένων δὲ παίδων ἀρρένων καὶ θηλειῶν, τροφὴν μέν που καὶ παιδείαν τὸ μετὰ ταῦτα λέγειν ὀρθότατʼ ἂν γίγνοιθʼ ἡμῖν, ἣν εἶναι μὲν ἄρρητον πάντως ἀδύνατον, λεγομένη δὲ διδαχῇ τινι καὶ νουθετήσει μᾶλλον ἢ νόμοις εἰκυῖʼ ἂν ἡμῖν φαίνοιτο. ἰδίᾳ γὰρ καὶ κατʼ οἰκίας πολλὰ καὶ σμικρὰ καὶ οὐκ ἐμφανῆ πᾶσι γιγνόμενα, ῥᾳδίως ὑπὸ τῆς ἑκάστων λύπης τε καὶ ἡδονῆς καὶ ἐπιθυμίας ἕτερα παρὰ τὰς τοῦ νομοθέτου συμβουλὰς παραγενόμενα, παντοδαπὰ καὶ οὐχ ὅμοια ἀλλήλοις ἀπεργάζοιτʼ ἂν τὰ τῶν πολιτῶν ἤθη.
788b. This is bad for a State. For while, on the one hand, it is improper and undignified to impose penalties on these practices by law, because of their triviality and the frequency of their occurrence, on the other hand, it detracts from the authority of the law which stands written when men grow used to breaking the law in trivial matters repeatedly.
788b. τοῦτο δὲ κακὸν ταῖς πόλεσιν· καὶ γὰρ διὰ σμικρότητα αὐτῶν καὶ πυκνότητα ἐπιζήμια τιθέντα ποιεῖν νόμους ἀπρεπὲς ἅμα καὶ ἄσχημον, διαφθείρει δὲ καὶ τοὺς γραφῇ τεθέντας νόμους, ἐν τοῖς σμικροῖς καὶ πυκνοῖς ἐθισθέντων τῶν ἀνθρώπων παρανομεῖν.
788c. Hence, while it is impossible to pass over these practices in silence, it is difficult to legislate concerning them. The practices I refer to I will try to make clear by bringing some specimens, as it were, to the light; for at present my words rather resemble a “dark speech.”
788c. ὥστε ἀπορία μὲν περὶ αὐτὰ νομοθετεῖν, σιγᾶν δὲ ἀδύνατον. ἃ δὲ λέγω, δηλῶσαι πειρατέον οἷον δείγματα ἐξενεγκόντα εἰς φῶς· νῦν γὰρ λεγομένοις ἔοικε κατά τι σκότος.
Clin. That is quite true.
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
Ath. When we said that right nurture must be manifestly capable of making both bodies and souls in all respects as beautiful and good as possible, we spoke, I presume, truly?
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ὅτι μὲν σώματα καὶ ψυχὰς τήν γε ὀρθὴν πάντως δεῖ τροφὴν φαίνεσθαι δυναμένην ὡς κάλλιστα καὶ ἄριστα ἐξεργάζεσθαι, τοῦτο μὲν ὀρθῶς εἴρηταί που.
Clin. Certainly we did.
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
788d. Ath. And I suppose that (to take the simplest point) the most beautiful bodies must grow up from earliest infancy as straight as possible.
788d. ΑΘ. σώματα δὲ κάλλιστα, οἴομαι, τό γε ἁπλούστατον, ὡς ὀρθότατα δεῖ νέων ὄντων εὐθὺς φύεσθαι τῶν παίδων.
Clin. Most certainly.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Ath. Well then, do we not observe that in every living creature the first shoot makes by far the largest and longest growth; so that many people stoutly maintain that in point of height men grow more in the first five years of life than in the next twenty?
ΑΘ. τί δέ; τόδε οὐκ ἐννοοῦμεν, ὡς ἡ πρώτη βλάστη παντὸς ζῴου πολὺ μεγίστη καὶ πλείστη φύεται, ὥστε καὶ ἔριν πολλοῖς παρέσχηκεν μὴ γίγνεσθαι τά γʼ ἀνθρώπινα μήκη διπλάσια ἀπὸ πέντε ἐτῶν ἐν τοῖς λοιποῖς εἴκοσιν ἔτεσιν αὐξανόμενα;
Clin. That is true.
ΚΛ. ἀληθῆ.
789. Ath. But we know, don’t we, that when growth occurs rapidly, without plenty of suitable exercise, it produces in the body countless evils?
789. ΑΘ. τί οὖν; πολλὴ αὔξη ὅταν ἐπιρρέῃ πόνων χωρὶς πολλῶν καὶ συμμέτρων, οὐκ ἴσμεν ὅτι μυρία κακὰ ἐν τοῖς σώμασιν ἀποτελεῖ;
789a. Clin. Certainly.
789a. ΚΛ. πάνυ γε.
Ath. And when bodies receive most food, then they require most exercise?
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν τότε δεῖται πλείστων πόνων, ὅταν ἡ πλείστη τροφὴ προσγίγνηται τοῖς σώμασι.
Clin. What is that, Stranger? Are we to prescribe most exercise for new-born babes and tiny infants?
ΚΛ. τί δῆτʼ, ὦ ξένε; ἦ τοῖς ἄρτι γεγονόσι καὶ νεωτάτοις πόνους πλείστους προστάξομεν;
Ath. Nay, even earlier than that,—we shall prescribe it for those nourished inside the bodies of their mothers.
ΑΘ. οὐδαμῶς γε, ἀλλʼ ἔτι καὶ πρότερον τοῖς ἐντὸς τῶν αὑτῶν μητέρων τρεφομένοις.
Clin. What do you mean, my dear sir? Is it unborn babes you are talking of?
ΚΛ. πῶς λέγεις, ὦ λῷστε; ἢ τοῖς κυουμένοισι φράζεις;
789b. Ath. It is. Still it is by no means surprising that you know nothing of this pre-natal gymnastic; but, strange though it is, I should like to explain it to you.
789b. ΑΘ. ναί. θαυμαστὸν δʼ οὐδέν ἐστιν ἀγνοεῖν ὑμᾶς τὴν τῶν τηλικούτων γυμναστικήν, ἣν βουλοίμην ἂν ὑμῖν καίπερ ἄτοπον οὖσαν δηλῶσαι.
Clin. By all means do so.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Ath. In our country it is easier to understand a practice of this kind, because there are people there who carry their sports to excess. At Athens we find not only boys but sometimes old men rearing birds and training such creatures to fight one another.
ΑΘ. ἔστι τοίνυν παρʼ ἡμῖν μᾶλλον τὸ τοιοῦτον κατανοεῖν διὰ τὸ τὰς παιδιὰς αὐτόθι μειζόνως τινὰς παίζειν ἢ δεῖ· τρέφουσι γὰρ δὴ παρʼ ἡμῖν οὐ μόνον παῖδες ἀλλὰ καὶ πρεσβύτεροί τινες ὀρνίθων θρέμματα, ἐπὶ τὰς μάχας τὰς πρὸς ἄλληλα. ἀσκοῦντας τὰ τοιαῦτα τῶν θηρίων πολλοῦ δὴ δέουσιν ἡγεῖσθαι τοὺς πόνους αὐτοῖς εἶναι τοὺς πρὸς ἄλληλα μετρίους, ἐν οἷς αὐτὰ ἀνακινοῦσι γυμνάζοντες·
789c. But they are far from thinking that the training they give them by exciting their pugnacity provides sufficient exercise; in addition to this, each man takes up his bird and keeps it tucked away in his fist, if it is small, or under his arm, if it is large, and in this way they walk many a long mile in order to improve the condition, not of their own bodies, but of these creatures. Thus clearly do they show to any observant person that all bodies benefit, as by a tonic, when they are moved by any kind of shaking or motion, whether they are moved by their own action—as in a swing or in a rowing-boat—or are carried along on horseback or by any other rapidly moving bodies; and that this is the reason why bodies can deal successfully with their supplies of meat and drink and provide us with health and beauty, and strength as well.
789c. πρὸς γὰρ τούτοις λαβόντες ὑπὸ μάλης ἕκαστος, τοὺς μὲν ἐλάττονας εἰς τὰς χεῖρας, μείζους δʼ ὑπὸ τὴν ἀγκάλην ἐντός, πορεύονται περιπατοῦντες σταδίους παμπόλλους ἕνεκα τῆς εὐεξίας οὔτι τῆς τῶν αὑτῶν σωμάτων, ἀλλὰ τῆς τούτων τῶν θρεμμάτων, καὶ τό γε τοσοῦτον δηλοῦσι τῷ δυναμένῳ καταμαθεῖν, ὅτι τὰ σώματα πάντα ὑπὸ τῶν σεισμῶν τε καὶ κινήσεων κινούμενα ἄκοπα ὀνίναται πάντων, ὅσα τε ὑπὸ ἑαυτῶν, ἢ καὶ ἐν αἰώραις ἢ καὶ κατὰ θάλατταν, ἢ καὶ ἐφʼ ἵππων ὀχουμένων καὶ ὑπʼ ἄλλων ὁπωσοῦν δὴ φερομένων τῶν σωμάτων, κινεῖται, καὶ διὰ ταῦτα τὰς τῶν σίτων τροφὰς καὶ ποτῶν κατακρατοῦντα, ὑγίειαν καὶ κάλλος καὶ τὴν ἄλλην ῥώμην ἡμῖν δυνατά ἐστι παραδιδόναι.
789d. This being the state of the case, what does it behove us to do in the future? Shall we risk ridicule, and lay down a law that the pregnant woman shall walk, and that the child, while still soft, shall be molded like wax, and be kept in swaddling clothes till it is two years old?
789d. τί οὖν ἂν φαῖμεν ἐχόντων οὕτω τούτων τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο ἡμᾶς δεῖν ποιεῖν; βούλεσθε ἅμα γέλωτι φράζωμεν, τιθέντες νόμους τὴν μὲν κύουσαν περιπατεῖν, τὸ γενόμενον δὲ πλάττειν τε οἷον κήρινον, ἕως ὑγρόν, καὶ μέχρι δυοῖν ἐτοῖν σπαργανᾶν;
789e. And shall we also compel the nurses by legal penalties to keep carrying the children somehow, either to the fields or to the temples or to their relatives, all the time until they are able to stand upright; and after that, still to persevere in carrying them until they are three years old, as a precaution against the danger of distorting their legs by over-pressure while they are still young?
789e. καὶ δὴ καὶ τὰς τροφοὺς ἀναγκάζωμεν νόμῳ ζημιοῦντες τὰ παιδία ἢ πρὸς ἀγροὺς ἢ πρὸς ἱερὰ ἢ πρὸς οἰκείους ἀεί πῃ φέρειν, μέχριπερ ἂν ἱκανῶς ἵστασθαι δυνατὰ γίγνηται, καὶ τότε, διευλαβουμένας ἔτι νέων ὄντων μή πῃ βίᾳ ἐπερειδομένων στρέφηται τὰ κῶλα, ἐπιπονεῖν φερούσας ἕως ἂν τριετὲς ἀποτελεσθῇ τὸ γενόμενον;
790. Ath. And that the nurses shall be as strong as possible?
790. ΑΘ. εἰς δύναμιν δὲ ἰσχυρὰς αὐτὰς εἶναι χρεὼν καὶ μὴ μίαν;
790a. And shall we impose a written penalty for every failure to carry out these injunctions? Such a course is quite out of the question; for it would lead to a superabundance of that consequence which we mentioned a moment ago.
790a. ἐπὶ δὲ τούτοις ἑκάστοις, ἂν μὴ γίγνηται, ζημίαν τοῖς μὴ ποιοῦσι γράφωμεν; ἢ πολλοῦ γε δεῖ; τὸ γὰρ ἄρτι ῥηθὲν γίγνοιτʼ ἂν πολὺ καὶ ἄφθονον.
Clin. What was that?
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον;
Ath. The consequence of our incurring ridicule in abundance, in addition to meeting with a blank refusal to obey on the part of the nurses, with their womanish and servile minds.
ΑΘ. τὸ γέλωτα ἂν πολὺν ὀφλεῖν ἡμᾶς πρὸς τῷ μὴ ἐθέλειν ἂν πείθεσθαι γυναικεῖά τε καὶ δούλεια ἤθη τροφῶν.
Clin. What reason, then, had we for saying that these rules ought to be stated?
ΚΛ. ἀλλὰ τίνος δὴ χάριν ἔφαμεν αὐτὰ δεῖν ῥηθῆναι;
Ath. The reason was this: the minds of the masters and of the freemen in the States may perhaps listen, and so come to the right conclusion that, unless private affairs in a State are rightly managed, it is vain to suppose that any stable code of laws can exist for public affairs; and when he perceives this, the individual citizen may of himself adopt as laws the rules we have now stated, and, by so doing and thus ordering aright both his household and his State, may achieve happiness.
ΑΘ. τοῦδε· τὰ τῶν δεσποτῶν τε καὶ ἐλευθέρων ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν ἤθη τάχʼ ἂν ἀκούσαντα εἰς σύννοιαν ἀφίκοιτʼ ἂν τὴν ὀρθήν, ὅτι χωρὶς τῆς ἰδίας διοικήσεως ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν ὀρθῆς γιγνομένης μάτην ἂν τὰ κοινά τις οἴοιτο ἕξειν τινὰ βεβαιότητα θέσεως νόμων, καὶ ταῦτα ἐννοῶν, αὐτὸς νόμοις ἂν τοῖς νῦν ῥηθεῖσιν χρῷτο, καὶ χρώμενος, εὖ τήν τε οἰκίαν καὶ πόλιν ἅμα τὴν αὑτοῦ διοικῶν, εὐδαιμονοῖ.
790b. Clin. Such a result seems quite probable.
790b. ΚΛ. καὶ μάλʼ εἰκότως εἴρηκας.
Ath. Consequently we must not desist from this kind of legislation until we have described in detail the treatment suited for the souls of young children in the same manner as we commenced our advice regarding their bodies.
ΑΘ. τοιγαροῦν μήπω λήξωμεν τῆς τοιαύτης νομοθεσίας, πρὶν ἂν καὶ τὰ περὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πάνυ νέων παίδων ἐπιτηδεύματα ἀποδῶμεν κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν τρόπον ὅνπερ ἤργμεθα τῶν περὶ τὰ σώματα μύθων λεχθέντων διαπεραίνειν.
790c. Clin. You are quite right.
790c. ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν ὀρθῶς.
Ath. Let us take this, then, as a fundamental assumption in both cases,—that for both body and soul of the very young a process of nursing and moving, that is as continuous as possible both by day and by night, is in all cases salutary, and especially in the case of the youngest: it is like having them always rocked— if that were possible—on the sea.
ΑΘ. λάβωμεν τοίνυν τοῦτο οἷον στοιχεῖον ἐπʼ ἀμφότερα, σώματός τε καὶ ψυχῆς τῶν πάνυ νέων τὴν τιθήνησιν καὶ κίνησιν γιγνομένην ὅτι μάλιστα διὰ πάσης τε νυκτὸς καὶ ἡμέρας, ὡς ἔστι σύμφορος ἅπασι μέν, οὐχ ἥκιστα δὲ τοῖς ὅτι νεωτάτοισι, καὶ οἰκεῖν, εἰ δυνατὸν ἦν, οἷον ἀεὶ πλέοντας·
790d. As it is, with new-born infants one should reproduce this condition as nearly as possible. Further evidence of this may be seen in the fact that this course is adopted and its usefulness recognized both by those who nurse small children and by those who administer remedies in cases of Corybantism. Thus when mothers have children suffering from sleeplessness, and want to lull them to rest, the treatment they apply is to give them, not quiet, but motion, for they rock them constantly in their arms; and instead of silence, they use a kind of crooning noise; and thus they literally cast a spell upon the children (like the victims of Bacchic frenzy) by employing the combined movements of dance and song as a remedy.
790d. νῦν δʼ ὡς ἐγγύτατα τούτου ποιεῖν δεῖ περὶ τὰ νεογενῆ παίδων θρέμματα. τεκμαίρεσθαι δὲ χρὴ καὶ ἀπὸ τῶνδε, ὡς ἐξ ἐμπειρίας αὐτὸ εἰλήφασι καὶ ἐγνώκασιν ὂν χρήσιμον αἵ τε τροφοὶ τῶν σμικρῶν καὶ αἱ περὶ τὰ τῶν Κορυβάντων ἰάματα τελοῦσαι· ἡνίκα γὰρ ἄν που βουληθῶσιν κατακοιμίζειν τὰ δυσυπνοῦντα τῶν παιδίων αἱ μητέρες, οὐχ ἡσυχίαν αὐτοῖς προσφέρουσιν ἀλλὰ τοὐναντίον κίνησιν, ἐν ταῖς ἀγκάλαις ἀεὶ σείουσαι, καὶ οὐ σιγὴν ἀλλά τινα μελῳδίαν, καὶ ἀτεχνῶς οἷον καταυλοῦσι τῶν παιδίων, καθάπερ ἡ τῶν ἐκφρόνων βακχειῶν ἰάσεις, ταύτῃ τῇ τῆς κινήσεως ἅμα χορείᾳ καὶ μούσῃ χρώμεναι.
790e. Clin. And what, Stranger, are we to suppose is the main cause of this?
790e. ΚΛ. τίς οὖν αἰτία τούτων, ὦ ξένε, μάλιστʼ ἔσθʼ ἡμῖν;
Ath. It is easy enough to see.
ΑΘ. οὐ πάνυ χαλεπὴ γιγνώσκειν.
791. Ath. Both these affections are forms of fright; and frights are due to a poor condition of soul. So whenever one applies an external shaking to affections of this kind, the external motion thus applied overpowers the internal motion of fear and frenzy, and by thus overpowering it, it brings about a manifest calm in the soul and a cessation of the grievous palpitation of the heart which had existed in each case. Thus it produces very satisfactory results. The children it puts to sleep; the Bacchants, who are awake, it brings into a sound state of mind instead of a frenzied condition, by means of dancing and playing, with the help of whatsoever gods they chance to be worshipping with sacrifice.
791. ΑΘ. δειμαίνειν ἐστίν που ταῦτʼ ἀμφότερα τὰ πάθη, καὶ ἔστι δείματα διʼ ἕξιν φαύλην τῆς ψυχῆς τινα. ὅταν οὖν ἔξωθέν τις προσφέρῃ τοῖς τοιούτοις πάθεσι σεισμόν, ἡ τῶν ἔξωθεν κρατεῖ κίνησις προσφερομένη τὴν ἐντὸς φοβερὰν οὖσαν καὶ μανικὴν κίνησιν, κρατήσασα δέ, γαλήνην ἡσυχίαν τε ἐν τῇ ψυχῇ φαίνεσθαι ἀπεργασαμένη τῆς περὶ τὰ τῆς καρδίας χαλεπῆς γενομένης ἑκάστων πηδήσεως, παντάπασιν ἀγαπητόν τι, τοὺς μὲν ὕπνου λαγχάνειν ποιεῖ, τοὺς δʼ ἐγρηγορότας ὀρχουμένους τε καὶ αὐλουμένους μετὰ θεῶν, οἷς ἂν καλλιεροῦντες ἕκαστοι θύωσι, κατηργάσατο ἀντὶ μανικῶν
791b. This is—to put it shortly—quite a plausible account of the matter.Clin. Most plausible.Ath. Seeing, then, that these causes produce the effects described, in the case of the people mentioned one should observe this point,—that every soul that is subjected to fright from youth will be specially liable to become timid: and this, as all would aver, is not to practice courage, but cowardice.Clin. Of course it is.
791b. ἡμῖν διαθέσεων ἕξεις ἔμφρονας ἔχειν. καὶ ταῦτα, ὡς διὰ βραχέων γε οὕτως εἰπεῖν, πιθανὸν λόγον ἔχει τινά.ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.ΑΘ. εἰ δέ γε οὕτως τοιαύτην τινὰ δύναμιν ἔχει ταῦτα, ἐννοεῖν χρὴ τόδε παρʼ αὑτοῖς, ὡς ἅπασα ψυχὴ δείμασιν συνοῦσα ἐκ νέων μᾶλλον ἂν διὰ φόβων ἐθίζοιτο γίγνεσθαι· τοῦτο δέ που πᾶς ἂν φαίη δειλίας ἄσκησιν ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἀνδρείας γίγνεσθαι.ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;ΑΘ. τὸ δέ γε ἐναντίον ἀνδρείας ἂν φαῖμεν ἐκ νέων εὐθὺς ἐπιτήδευμα εἶναι, τὸ νικᾶν τὰ προσπίπτονθʼ ἡμῖν δείματά τε καὶ φόβους.
791c. Ath. The opposite course, of practicing courage from youth up, consists, we shall say, in the conquering of the frights and fears that assail us.Clin. That is true.Ath. Let us say, then, that this factor—namely, the exercise of quite young children by the various motions—contributes greatly towards developing one part of the soul’s virtue.Clin. Certainly.Ath. Moreover, cheerfulness of soul and its opposite will constitute no small part of stoutheartedness and faintheartedness.Clin. Of course.
791c. ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς.ΑΘ. ἓν δὴ καὶ τοῦτο εἰς ψυχῆς μόριον ἀρετῆς, τὴν τῶν παντελῶς παίδων γυμναστικὴν ἐν ταῖς κινήσεσιν, μέγα ἡμῖν φῶμεν συμβάλλεσθαι.ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν τό γε μὴ δύσκολον ἐν ψυχῇ καὶ τὸ δύσκολον οὐ σμικρὸν μόριον εὐψυχίας καὶ κακοψυχίας ἑκάτερον γιγνόμενον γίγνοιτʼ ἄν.ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
791d. Ath. What way can we find, then, for implanting at once in the new-born child whichever of these qualities we desire? We must endeavor to indicate how and to what extent we have them at our command.
791d. ΑΘ. τίνα οὖν ἂν τρόπον εὐθὺς ἐμφύοιθʼ ἡμῖν ὁπότερον βουληθεῖμεν τῷ νεογενεῖ, φράζειν δὴ πειρατέον ὅπως τις καὶ καθʼ ὅσον εὐπορεῖ τούτων.
Clin. By all means.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Ath. The doctrine held amongst us, I may explain, is this,—that whereas luxurious living renders the disposition of the young morose and irascible and too easily moved by trifles, its opposite (which is uttermost and cruel enslavement) makes them lowly and mean-spirited and misanthropic, and thus unfit to associate with others.
ΑΘ. λέγω δὴ τό γε παρʼ ἡμῖν δόγμα, ὡς ἡ μὲν τρυφὴ δύσκολα καὶ ἀκράχολα καὶ σφόδρα ἀπὸ σμικρῶν κινούμενα τὰ τῶν νέων ἤθη ἀπεργάζεται, τὸ δὲ τούτων ἐναντίον, ἥ τε σφοδρὰ καὶ ἀγρία δούλωσις, ταπεινοὺς καὶ ἀνελευθέρους καὶ μισανθρώπους ποιοῦσα, ἀνεπιτηδείους συνοίκους ἀποτελεῖ.
791e. Clin. In what way, then, should the State at large rear up infants that are still incapable of understanding speech or receiving other kinds of education?
791e. ΚΛ. πῶς οὖν δὴ χρὴ τὰ μήπω φωνῆς συνιέντα, μηδὲ παιδείας τῆς ἄλλης δυνατὰ γεύεσθαί πω, τρέφειν τὴν πόλιν ἅπασαν;
Ath. In this way: it is usual for every creature that is born—and the human child as much as any— to utter at once a loud outcry; and, what is more, the child is the most liable of them all to be afflicted with tears as well as outcries.
ΑΘ. ὧδέ πως· φθέγγεσθαί που μετὰ βοῆς εὐθὺς πᾶν εἴωθεν τὸ γενόμενον, καὶ οὐχ ἥκιστα τὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων γένος· καὶ δὴ καὶ τῷ κλάειν πρὸς τῇ βοῇ μᾶλλον τῶν ἄλλων συνέχεται.
Clin. Quite true.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
792. Ath. When nurses are trying to discover what a baby wants, they judge by these very same signs in offering it things.
792. ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν αἱ τροφοὶ σκοποῦσαι τίνος ἐπιθυμεῖ, τούτοις αὐτοῖς ἐν τῇ προσφορᾷ τεκμαίρονται·
792a. If it remains silent when the thing is offered, they conclude that it is the right thing, but the wrong thing if it weeps and cries out. Thus infants indicate what they like by means of weepings and outcries—truly no happy signals!—and this period of infancy lasts not less than three years, which is no small fraction of one’s time to spend ill or well.
792a. οὗ μὲν γὰρ ἂν προσφερομένου σιγᾷ, καλῶς οἴονται προσφέρειν, οὗ δʼ ἂν κλάῃ καὶ βοᾷ, οὐ καλῶς. τοῖς δὴ παιδίοις τὸ δήλωμα ὧν ἐρᾷ καὶ μισεῖ κλαυμοναὶ καὶ βοαί, σημεῖα οὐδαμῶς εὐτυχῆ· ἔστιν δὲ ὁ χρόνος οὗτος τριῶν οὐκ ἐλάττων ἐτῶν, μόριον οὐ σμικρὸν τοῦ βίου διαγαγεῖν χεῖρον ἢ μὴ χεῖρον.
Clin. You are right.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς λέγεις.
Ath. When a man is peevish and not cheerful at all, do you not regard him as a doleful person and more full, as a rule, of complaints than a good man ought to be?
ΑΘ. ὁ δὴ δύσκολος οὐδαμῶς τε ἵλεως ἆρʼ οὐ δοκεῖ σφῷν θρηνώδης τε εἶναι καὶ ὀδυρμῶν ὡς ἐπὶ τὸ πολὺ πλήρης μᾶλλον ἢ χρεών ἐστιν τὸν ἀγαθόν;
792b. Clin. I certainly regard him as such.
792b. ΚΛ. ἐμοὶ γοῦν δοκεῖ.
Ath. Well then, suppose one should try to secure by every available means that our nursling should experience the least possible amount of grief or fear or pain of any kind, may we not believe that by this means the soul of the nursling would be rendered more bright and cheerful?
ΑΘ. τί οὖν; εἴ τις τὰ τρίʼ ἔτη πειρῷτο πᾶσαν μηχανὴν προσφέρων ὅπως τὸ τρεφόμενον ἡμῖν ὡς ὀλιγίστῃ προσχρήσεται ἀλγηδόνι καὶ φόβοις καὶ λύπῃ πάσῃ κατὰ δύναμιν, ἆρʼ οὐκ οἰόμεθα εὔθυμον μᾶλλόν τε καὶ ἵλεων ἀπεργάζεσθαι τηνικαῦτα τὴν ψυχὴν τοῦ τρεφομένου;
Clin. Plainly it would, Stranger; and most of all if one should provide him with many pleasures.
ΚΛ. δῆλον δή, καὶ μάλιστά γʼ ἄν, ὦ ξένε, εἴ τις πολλὰς ἡδονὰς αὐτῷ παρασκευάζοι.
792c. Ath. There, my good sir, I must part company with Clinias. For in our eyes such a proceeding is the worst possible form of corruption, for it occurs in every instance at the very beginning of the child’s nurture. But let us consider whether I am right.
792c. ΑΘ. τοῦτʼ οὐκέτʼ ἂν ἐγὼ Κλεινίᾳ συνακολουθήσαιμʼ ἄν, ὦ θαυμάσιε. ἔστιν γὰρ οὖν ἡμῖν ἡ τοιαύτη πρᾶξις διαφθορὰ μεγίστη πασῶν· ἐν ἀρχῇ γὰρ γίγνεται ἑκάστοτε τροφῆς. ὁρῶμεν δὲ εἴ τι λέγομεν.
Clin. Explain your view.
ΚΛ. λέγε τί φῄς.
Ath. I believe that the issue before us is one of extreme importance. You also, Megillus, consider the matter, I pray, and lend us the aid of your judgment. What I maintain is this: that the right life ought neither to pursue pleasures nor to shun pains entirely;
ΑΘ. οὐ σμικροῦ πέρι νῦν εἶναι νῷν τὸν λόγον. ὅρα δὲ καὶ σύ, συνεπίκρινέ τε ἡμᾶς, ὦ Μέγιλλε. ὁ μὲν γὰρ ἐμὸς δὴ λόγος οὔθʼ ἡδονάς φησι δεῖν διώκειν τὸν ὀρθὸν βίον οὔτʼ αὖ τὸ παράπαν φεύγειν τὰς λύπας, ἀλλʼ αὐτὸ ἀσπάζεσθαι τὸ μέσον, ὃ νυνδὴ προσεῖπον ὡς ἵλεων ὀνομάσας, ἣν δὴ διάθεσιν καὶ θεοῦ κατά τινα μαντείας φήμην εὐστόχως πάντες προσαγορεύομεν.
792d. but it ought to embrace that middle state of cheerfulness (as I termed it a moment ago), which—as we all rightly suppose, on the strength of an inspired utterance—is the very condition of God himself. And I maintain that whosoever of us would be godlike must pursue this state of soul, neither becoming himself prone at all to pleasures, even as he will not be devoid of pain, not allowing any other person—old or young, man or woman—to be in this condition and least of all, so far as possible, the new-born babe.
792d. ταύτην τὴν ἕξιν διώκειν φημὶ δεῖν ἡμῶν καὶ τὸν μέλλοντα ἔσεσθαι θεῖον, μήτʼ οὖν αὐτὸν προπετῆ πρὸς τὰς ἡδονὰς γιγνόμενον ὅλως, ὡς οὐδʼ ἐκτὸς λυπῶν ἐσόμενον, μήτε ἄλλον, γέροντα ἢ νέον, ἐᾶν πάσχειν ταὐτὸν τοῦθʼ ἡμῖν, ἄρρενα ἢ θῆλυν, ἁπάντων δὲ ἥκιστα εἰς δύναμιν τὸν ἀρτίως νεογενῆ·
792e. For because of the force of habit, it is in infancy that the whole character is most effectually determined. I should assert further—were it not that it would be taken as a jest—that women with child, above all others, should be cared for during their years of pregnancy, lest any of them should indulge in repeated and intense pleasures or pains, instead of cultivating, during the whole of that period, a cheerful, bright and calm demeanor. Clin. There is no need for you, Stranger, to ask Megillus which of us two has made the truer statement.
792e. κυριώτατον γὰρ οὖν ἐμφύεται πᾶσι τότε τὸ πᾶν ἦθος διὰ ἔθος. ἔτι δʼ ἔγωγʼ, εἰ μὴ μέλλοιμι δόξειν παίζειν, φαίην ἂν δεῖν καὶ τὰς φερούσας ἐν γαστρὶ πασῶν τῶν γυναικῶν μάλιστα θεραπεύειν ἐκεῖνον τὸν ἐνιαυτόν, ὅπως μήτε ἡδοναῖς τισι πολλαῖς ἅμα καὶ μάργοις προσχρήσεται ἡ κύουσα μήτε αὖ λύπαις, τὸ δὲ ἵλεων καὶ εὐμενὲς πρᾷόν τε τιμῶσα διαζήσει τὸν τότε χρόνον.
793a. For I myself grant you that all men ought to shun the life of unmixed pain and pleasure, and follow always a middle path. So all is well both with your statement and with my reply.Ath. You are perfectly right, Clinias. So then let the three of us together consider this next point.Clin. What is that?Ath. That all the regulations which we are now expounding are what are commonly termed “unwritten laws.” And these as a whole are just the same as what men call “ancestral customs.”
793a. ΚΛ. οὐδὲν δεῖ σε, ὦ ξένε, Μέγιλλον ἀνερωτᾶν πότερος ἡμῶν ὀρθότερον εἴρηκεν· ἐγὼ γὰρ αὐτός σοι συγχωρῶ τὸν λύπης τε καὶ ἡδονῆς ἀκράτου βίον φεύγειν δεῖν πάντας, μέσον δέ τινα τέμνειν ἀεί. καλῶς τοίνυν εἴρηκάς τε καὶ ἀκήκοας ἅμα.ΑΘ. μάλα μὲν οὖν ὀρθῶς, ὦ Κλεινία. τόδε τοίνυν ἐπὶ τούτοις τρεῖς ὄντες διανοηθῶμεν.ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον;ΑΘ. ὅτι ταῦτʼ ἔστιν πάντα, ὅσα νῦν διεξερχόμεθα, τὰ καλούμενα ὑπὸ τῶν πολλῶν ἄγραφα νόμιμα· καὶ οὓς πατρίους νόμους ἐπονομάζουσιν, οὐκ ἄλλα ἐστὶν ἢ τὰ τοιαῦτα σύμπαντα.
793b. Moreover, the view which was recently impressed upon us, that one should neither speak of these as “laws” nor yet leave them without mention, was a right view. For it is these that act as bonds in every constitution, forming a link between all its laws (both those already enacted in writing and those still to be enacted), exactly like ancestral customs of great antiquity, which, if well established and practiced, serve to wrap up securely the laws already written, whereas if they perversely go aside from the right way, like builders’ props that collapse under the middle of a house, they bring everything else tumbling down along with them, one thing buried under another, first the props themselves and then the fair superstructure, once the ancient supports have fallen down.
793b. καὶ ἔτι γε ὁ νυνδὴ λόγος ἡμῖν ἐπιχυθείς, ὡς οὔτε νόμους δεῖ προσαγορεύειν αὐτὰ οὔτε ἄρρητα ἐᾶν, εἴρηται καλῶς· δεσμοὶ γὰρ οὗτοι πάσης εἰσὶν πολιτείας, μεταξὺ πάντων ὄντες τῶν ἐν γράμμασιν τεθέντων τε καὶ κειμένων καὶ τῶν ἔτι θησομένων, ἀτεχνῶς οἷον πάτρια καὶ παντάπασιν ἀρχαῖα νόμιμα, ἃ καλῶς μὲν τεθέντα καὶ ἐθισθέντα πάσῃ σωτηρίᾳ περικαλύψαντα ἔχει τοὺς τότε γραφέντας νόμους, ἂν δʼ ἐκτὸς τοῦ καλοῦ βαίνῃ πλημμελῶς, οἷον τεκτόνων ἐν οἰκοδομήμασιν ἐρείσματα ἐκ μέσου ὑπορρέοντα, συμπίπτειν εἰς ταὐτὸν ποιεῖ τὰ σύμπαντα, κεῖσθαί τε ἄλλα ὑφʼ ἑτέρων, αὐτά τε καὶ τὰ καλῶς ὕστερον ἐποικοδομηθέντα, τῶν ἀρχαίων ὑποπεσόντων.
793c. Bearing this in mind, Clinias, we must clamp together this State of yours, which is a new one, by every possible means, omitting nothing great or small in the way of laws, customs and institutions; for it is by all such means that a State is clamped together, and neither kind of law is permanent without the other.
793c. ἃ δὴ διανοουμένους ἡμᾶς, ὦ Κλεινία, σοὶ δεῖ τὴν πόλιν καινὴν οὖσαν πάντῃ συνδεῖν, μήτε μέγα μήτε σμικρὸν παραλιπόντας εἰς δύναμιν ὅσα νόμους ἢ ἔθη τις ἢ ἐπιτηδεύματα καλεῖ·
793d. Consequently, we need not be surprised if the influx of a number of apparently trivial customs or usages should make our laws rather long.
793d. πᾶσι γὰρ τοῖς τοιούτοις πόλις συνδεῖται, ἄνευ δὲ ἀλλήλων ἑκάτερα τούτων οὐκ ἔστιν μόνιμα, ὥστε οὐ χρὴ θαυμάζειν ἐὰν ἡμῖν πολλὰ ἅμα καὶ σμικρὰ δοκούντων εἶναι νόμιμα ἢ καὶ ἐθίσματα ἐπιρρέοντα μακροτέρους ποιῇ τοὺς νόμους.
Clin. What you say is quite true, and we will bear it in mind.
ΚΛ. ἀλλʼ ὀρθῶς σύ γε λέγεις, ἡμεῖς τε οὕτω διανοησόμεθα.
Ath. If one could carry out these regulations methodically, and not merely apply them casually, in the case of girls and boys up to the age of three, they would conduce greatly to the benefit of our infant nurslings.
ΑΘ. εἰς μὲν τοίνυν τὴν τοῦ τρίʼ ἔτη γεγονότος ἡλικίαν, κόρου καὶ κόρης, ταῦτα εἴ τις ἀκριβῶς ἀποτελοῖ καὶ μὴ παρέργως τοῖς εἰρημένοις χρῷτο, οὐ σμικρὰ εἰς ὠφελίαν γίγνοιτʼ ἂν τοῖς νεωστὶ τρεφομένοις·
794. Ath. To form the character of the child over three and up to six years old there will be need of games: by then punishment must be used to prevent their getting pampered,—not, however, punishment of a degrading kind, but just as we said before, in the case of slaves, that one should avoid enraging the persons punished by using degrading punishments, or pampering them by leaving them unpunished, so in the case of the free-born the same rule holds good.
794. ΑΘ. τριετεῖ δὲ δὴ καὶ τετραετεῖ καὶ πενταετεῖ καὶ ἔτι ἑξετεῖ ἤθει ψυχῆς παιδιῶν δέον ἂν εἴη, τρυφῆς δʼ ἤδη παραλυτέον κολάζοντα, μὴ ἀτίμως, ἀλλʼ ὅπερ ἐπὶ τῶν δούλων γʼ ἐλέγομεν, τὸ μὴ μεθʼ ὕβρεως κολάζοντας ὀργὴν ἐμποιῆσαι δεῖν τοῖς κολασθεῖσιν μηδʼ ἀκολάστους ἐῶντας τρυφήν, ταὐτὸν δραστέον τοῦτό γε καὶ ἐπʼ ἐλευθέροισι.