794a. Children of this age have games which come by natural instinct; and they generally invent them of themselves whenever they meet together. As soon as they have reached the age of three, all the children from three to six must meet together at the village temples, those belonging to each village assembling at the same place. Moreover, the nurses of these children must watch over their behavior, whether it be orderly or disorderly; and over the nurses themselves and the whole band of children one of the twelve women already elected must be appointed annually to take charge of each band, the appointment resting with the Law-wardens.
794a. παιδιαὶ δʼ εἰσὶν τοῖς τηλικούτοις αὐτοφυεῖς τινες, ἃς ἐπειδὰν συνέλθωσιν αὐτοὶ σχεδὸν ἀνευρίσκουσι. συνιέναι δὲ εἰς τὰ κατὰ κώμας ἱερὰ δεῖ πάντα ἤδη τὰ τηλικαῦτα παιδία, ἀπὸ τριετοῦς μέχρι τῶν ἓξ ἐτῶν, κοινῇ τὰ τῶν κωμητῶν εἰς ταὐτὸν ἕκαστα· τὰς δὲ τροφοὺς ἔτι τῶν τηλικούτων κοσμιότητός τε καὶ ἀκολασίας ἐπιμελεῖσθαι, τῶν δὲ τροφῶν αὐτῶν καὶ τῆς ἀγέλης συμπάσης, τῶν δώδεκα γυναικῶν μίαν ἐφʼ ἑκάστῃ τετάχθαι κοσμοῦσαν κατʼ ἐνιαυτὸν τῶν προειρημένων ἃς ἂν τάξωσιν οἱ νομοφύλακες.
794b. These women shall be elected by the women who have charge of the supervision of marriage, one out of each tribe and all of a like age. The woman thus appointed shall pay an official visit to the temple every day, and she shall employ a State servant and deal summarily with male or female slaves and strangers, but in the case of citizens, if the person protests against the punishment, she shall bring him for trial before the city stewards; but if no protest is made, she shall inflict summary justice equally on citizens.
794b. ταύτας δὲ αἱρείσθωσαν μὲν αἱ τῶν γάμων κύριαι τῆς ἐπιμελείας, ἐξ ἑκάστης τῆς φυλῆς μίαν, ἥλικας αὑταῖς· ἡ δὲ καταστᾶσα ἀρχέτω φοιτῶσα εἰς τὸ ἱερὸν ἑκάστης ἡμέρας καὶ κολάζουσα ἀεὶ τὸν ἀδικοῦντα, δοῦλον μὲν καὶ δούλην καὶ ξένον καὶ ξένην αὐτὴ διά τινων τῆς πόλεως οἰκετῶν, πολίτην δὲ ἀμφισβητοῦντα μὲν τῇ κολάσει πρὸς τοὺς ἀστυνόμους ἐπὶ δίκην ἄγουσα, ἀναμφισβήτητον δὲ ὄντα καὶ τὸν πολίτην αὐτὴ κολαζέτω.
794c. After the age of six, each sex shall be kept separate, boys spending their time with boys, and likewise girls with girls; and when it is necessary for them to begin lessons, the boys must go to teachers of riding, archery, javelin-throwing and slinging, and the girls also, if they agree to it, must share in the lessons, and especially such as relate to the use of arms.
794c. μετὰ δὲ τὸν ἑξέτη καὶ τὴν ἑξέτιν διακρινέσθω μὲν ἤδη τὸ γένος ἑκατέρων—κόροι μὲν μετὰ κόρων, παρθένοι δὲ ὡσαύτως μετʼ ἀλλήλων τὴν διατριβὴν ποιείσθωσαν—πρὸς δὲ τὰ μαθήματα τρέπεσθαι χρεὼν ἑκατέρους, τοὺς μὲν ἄρρενας ἐφʼ ἵππων διδασκάλους καὶ τόξων καὶ ἀκοντίων καὶ σφενδονήσεως, ἐὰν δέ πῃ συγχωρῶσιν, μέχρι γε μαθήσεως καὶ τὰ θήλεα, καὶ δὴ τά γε μάλιστα πρὸς τὴν τῶν ὅπλων χρείαν.
794d. For, as regards the view now prevalent regarding these matters, it is based on almost universal ignorance.
794d. τὸ γὰρ δὴ νῦν καθεστὸς περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα ἀγνοεῖται παρὰ τοῖς πᾶσιν ὀλίγου.
Clin. What view?
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον;
Ath. The view that, in the case of hands, right and left are by nature different in respect of their utility for special acts; but, as a matter of fact, in the case of the feet and the lower limbs there is plainly no difference in working capacity;
ΑΘ. ὡς ἄρα τὰ δεξιὰ καὶ τὰ ἀριστερὰ διαφέροντά ἐσθʼ ἡμῶν φύσει πρὸς τὰς χρείας εἰς ἑκάστας τῶν πράξεων τὰ περὶ τὰς χεῖρας, ἐπεὶ τά γε περὶ πόδας τε καὶ τὰ κάτω τῶν μελῶν οὐδὲν διαφέροντα εἰς τοὺς πόνους φαίνεται· τὰ δὲ κατὰ χεῖρας ἀνοίᾳ τροφῶν καὶ μητέρων οἷον χωλοὶ γεγόναμεν ἕκαστοι.
794e. and it is due to the folly of nurses and mothers that we have all become limping, so to say, in our hands. For in natural ability the two limbs are almost equally balanced; but we ourselves by habitually using them in a wrong way have made them different.
794e. τῆς φύσεως γὰρ ἑκατέρων τῶν μελῶν σχεδὸν ἰσορροπούσης, αὐτοὶ διὰ τὰ ἔθη διάφορα αὐτὰ πεποιήκαμεν οὐκ ὀρθῶς χρώμενοι.
795. Ath. In actions of trifling importance this does not matter—as for example, whether a man uses the left hand for the fiddle and the right hand for the bow, and things of that sort; but to follow these precedents and to use the hands in this way on other occasions, when there is no necessity, is very like foolishness.
795. ΑΘ. ἐν ὅσοις μὲν γὰρ τῶν ἔργων μὴ μέγα διαφέρει, λύρᾳ μὲν ἐν ἀριστερᾷ χρώμενον, πλήκτρῳ δὲ ἐν δεξιᾷ, πρᾶγμα οὐδέν, καὶ ὅσα τοιαῦτα· τούτοις δὲ παραδείγμασι χρώμενον καὶ εἰς ἄλλα μὴ δέον οὕτω χρῆσθαι σχεδὸν ἄνοια.
795a. This is shown by the Scythian custom not only of using the left hand to draw the bow and the right to fit the arrow to it, but also of using both hands alike for both actions. And there are countless other instances of a similar kind, in connection with driving horses and other occupations, which teach us that those who treat the left hand as weaker than the right are confuted by nature. But this, as we have said, matters little in the case of fiddle-bows of horn and similar implements; but when it is a case of using iron instruments of war—bows, darts and the like—it matters a great deal, and most of all when weapon is to be used against weapon at close quarters.
795a. ἔδειξεν δὲ ταῦτα ὁ τῶν Σκυθῶν νόμος, οὐκ ἐν ἀριστερᾷ μὲν τόξον ἀπάγων, ἐν δεξιᾷ δὲ οἰστὸν προσαγόμενος μόνον, ἀλλʼ ὁμοίως ἑκατέροις ἐπʼ ἀμφότερα χρώμενος· πάμπολλα δʼ ἕτερα τοιαῦτα παραδείγματα ἐν ἡνιοχείαις τέ ἐστι καὶ ἐν ἑτέροις, ἐν οἷσιν μαθεῖν δυνατὸν ὅτι παρὰ φύσιν κατασκευάζουσιν οἱ ἀριστερὰ δεξιῶν ἀσθενέστερα κατασκευάζοντες. ταῦτα δʼ, ὅπερ εἴπομεν, ἐν μὲν κερατίνοις πλήκτροις καὶ ἐν ὀργάνοις τοιούτοις οὐδὲν μέγα·
795b. There is a vast difference here between the taught and the untaught, the trained and the untrained warrior. For just as the athlete who is thoroughly practiced in the pancratium or in boxing or wrestling is capable of fighting on his left side, and does not move that side as if it were numb or lame, whenever he is compelled to bring it into action through his opponent shifting to the other side,—in precisely the same way, I take it, in regard to the use of weapons of war and everything else, it ought to be considered the correct thing that the man who possesses two sets of limbs, fit both for offensive and defensive action, should, so far as possible, suffer neither of these to go unpracticed or untaught.
795b. σιδηροῖς δʼ εἰς τὸν πόλεμον ὅταν δέῃ χρῆσθαι, μέγα διαφέρει, καὶ τόξοις καὶ ἀκοντίοις καὶ ἑκάστοις τούτων, πολὺ δὲ μέγιστον, ὅταν ὅπλοις δέῃ πρὸς ὅπλα χρῆσθαι. διαφέρει δὲ πάμπολυ μαθὼν μὴ μαθόντος καὶ ὁ γυμνασάμενος τοῦ μὴ γεγυμνασμένου. καθάπερ γὰρ ὁ τελέως παγκράτιον ἠσκηκὼς ἢ πυγμὴν ἢ πάλην οὐκ ἀπὸ μὲν τῶν ἀριστερῶν ἀδύνατός ἐστι μάχεσθαι, χωλαίνει δὲ καὶ ἐφέλκεται πλημμελῶν, ὁπόταν αὐτόν τις μεταβιβάζων ἐπὶ θάτερα ἀναγκάζῃ διαπονεῖν, ταὐτὸν δὴ τοῦτʼ, οἶμαι, καὶ ἐν ὅπλοις καὶ ἐν τοῖς ἄλλοις πᾶσι χρὴ προσδοκᾶν ὀρθόν, ὅτι τὸν διττὰ δεῖ κεκτημένον, οἷς ἀμύνοιτό τʼ ἂν καὶ ἐπιτιθεῖτο ἄλλοις, μηδὲν ἀργὸν τούτων μηδὲ ἀνεπιστῆμον ἐᾶν εἶναι κατὰ δύναμιν·
795c. Indeed, if a man were gifted by nature with the frame of a Geryon or a Briareus, with his hundred hands he ought to be able to throw a hundred darts. So all these matters must be the care of the male and female officers, the women overseeing the games and the feeding of the children, and the men their lessons, to the intent that all the boys and girls may be sound of hand and foot, and may in no wise, if possible, get their natures warped by their habits.
795c. Γηρυόνου δέ γε εἴ τις φύσιν ἔχων ἢ καὶ τὴν Βριάρεω φύοιτο, ταῖς ἑκατὸν χερσὶν ἑκατὸν δεῖ βέλη ῥίπτειν δυνατὸν εἶναι. τούτων δὴ πάντων τὴν ἐπιμέλειαν ἀρχούσαις τε καὶ ἄρχουσι δεῖ γίγνεσθαι, ταῖς μὲν ἐν παιδιαῖς τε καὶ τροφαῖς ἐπισκόποις γιγνομέναις, τοῖς δὲ περὶ μαθήματα, ὅπως ἀρτίποδές τε καὶ ἀρτίχειρες πάντες τε καὶ πᾶσαι γιγνόμενοι, μηδὲν τοῖς ἔθεσιν ἀποβλάπτωσι τὰς φύσεις εἰς τὸ δυνατόν.τὰ δὲ μαθήματά που διττά, ὥς γʼ εἰπεῖν, χρήσασθαι συμβαίνοι ἄν, τὰ μὲν ὅσα περὶ τὸ σῶμα γυμναστικῆς, τὰ δʼ εὐψυχίας χάριν μουσικῆς.
795d. The lessons may, for practical convenience, be divided under two heads—the gymnastical, which concern the body, and the musical, which aim at goodness of soul. Of gymnastic there are two kinds, dancing and wrestling. Of dancing there is one branch in which the style of the Muse is imitated, preserving both freedom and nobility, and another which aims at physical soundness, agility and beauty by securing for the various parts and members of the body the proper degree of flexibility and extension and bestowing also the rhythmical motion which belongs to each, and which accompanies the whole of dancing and is diffused throughout it completely.
795d. τὰ δὲ γυμναστικῆς αὖ δύο, τὸ μὲν ὄρχησις, τὸ δὲ πάλη. τῆς ὀρχήσεως δὲ ἄλλη μὲν Μούσης λέξιν μιμουμένων, τό τε μεγαλοπρεπὲς φυλάττοντας ἅμα καὶ ἐλεύθερον, ἄλλη δέ, εὐεξίας ἐλαφρότητός τε ἕνεκα καὶ κάλλους, τῶν τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ μελῶν καὶ μερῶν τὸ προσῆκον καμπῆς τε καὶ ἐκτάσεως, καὶ ἀποδιδομένης ἑκάστοις αὐτοῖς αὑτῶν εὐρύθμου κινήσεως, διασπειρομένης ἅμα καὶ συνακολουθούσης εἰς πᾶσαν τὴν ὄρχησιν ἱκανῶς.ΑΘ. καὶ δὴ τά γε κατὰ πάλην ἃ μὲν Ἀνταῖος ἢ Κερκύων ἐν τέχναις ἑαυτῶν συνεστήσαντο φιλονικίας ἀχρήστου χάριν, ἢ πυγμῆς Ἐπειὸς ἢ Ἄμυκος, οὐδὲν χρήσιμα ἐπὶ πολέμου κοινωνίαν ὄντα, οὐκ ἄξια λόγῳ κοσμεῖν·
796a. Ath. As to the devices introduced by Antaeus or Cercyon in the art of wrestling for the sake of empty glory, or in boxing by Epeius or Amycus, since they are useless in the business of war, they merit no eulogy. But the exercises of stand-up wrestling, with the twisting free of neck, hands and sides, when practiced with ardor and with a firm and graceful pose, and directed towards strength and health,—these must not be omitted, since they are useful for all purposes; but we must charge both the pupils and their teachers— when we reach this point in our legislation—that the latter should impart these lessons gently, and the former receive them gratefully.
796a. τὰ δὲ ἀπʼ ὀρθῆς πάλης, ἀπʼ αὐχένων καὶ χειρῶν καὶ πλευρῶν ἐξειλήσεως, μετὰ φιλονικίας τε καὶ καταστάσεως διαπονούμενα μετʼ εὐσχήμονος ῥώμης τε καὶ ὑγιείας ἕνεκα, ταῦτʼ εἰς πάντα ὄντα χρήσιμα οὐ παρετέον, ἀλλὰ προστακτέον μαθηταῖς τε ἅμα καὶ τοῖς διδάξουσιν, ὅταν ἐνταῦθʼ ὦμεν τῶν νόμων, τοῖς μὲν πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα εὐμενῶς δωρεῖσθαι, τοῖς δὲ παραλαμβάνειν ἐν χάρισιν.
796b. Nor should we omit such mimic dances as are fitting for use by our choirs,—for instance, the sword-dance of the Curetes here in Crete, and that of the Dioscori in Lacedaemon; and at Athens, too, our Virgin-Lady gladdened by the pastime of the dance deemed it not seemly to sport with empty hands, but rather to tread the measure vested in full panoply.
796b. οὐδʼ ὅσα ἐν τοῖς χοροῖς ἐστιν αὖ μιμήματα προσήκοντα μιμεῖσθαι παρετέον, κατὰ μὲν τὸν τόπον τόνδε Κουρήτων ἐνόπλια παίγνια, κατὰ δὲ Λακεδαίμονα Διοσκόρων. ἡ δὲ αὖ που παρʼ ἡμῖν κόρη καὶ δέσποινα, εὐφρανθεῖσα τῇ τῆς χορείας παιδιᾷ, κεναῖς χερσὶν οὐκ ᾠήθη δεῖν ἀθύρειν, πανοπλίᾳ δὲ παντελεῖ κοσμηθεῖσα, οὕτω τὴν ὄρχησιν διαπεραίνειν·
796c. These examples it would well become the boys and girls to copy, and so cultivate the favor of the goddess, alike for service in war and for use at festivals. It shall be the rule for the children, from the age of six until they reach military age, whenever they approach any god and form processions, to be always equipped with arms and horses, and with dance and march, now quick, now slow, to make their supplications to the gods and the children of gods.
796c. ἃ δὴ πάντως μιμεῖσθαι πρέπον ἂν εἴη κόρους τε ἅμα καὶ κόρας, τὴν τῆς θεοῦ χάριν τιμῶντας, πολέμου τʼ ἐν χρείᾳ καὶ ἑορτῶν ἕνεκα. τοῖς δέ που παισὶν εὐθύς τε καὶ ὅσον ἂν χρόνον μήπω εἰς πόλεμον ἴωσιν, πᾶσι θεοῖς προσόδους τε καὶ πομπὰς ποιουμένους μεθʼ ὅπλων τε καὶ ἵππων ἀεὶ κοσμεῖσθαι δέον ἂν εἴη, θάττους τε καὶ βραδυτέρας ἐν ὀρχήσεσι καὶ ἐν πορείᾳ τὰς ἱκετείας ποιουμένους πρὸς θεούς τε καὶ θεῶν παῖδας.
796d. Contests, too, and preliminary trials must be carried out with a view to the objects stated, if at all; for these objects are useful both in peace and war, alike for the State and for private families; but all other kinds of work and play and bodily exercise are not worthy of a gentleman. And now, O Megillus and Clinias, I have pretty fully described that gymnastic training which—as I said early in our discourse—requires description: here it is in its full completeness. So if you know of a better gymnastic than this, disclose it.
796d. καὶ ἀγῶνας δὴ καὶ προαγῶνας, εἴ τινων, οὐκ ἄλλων ἢ τούτων ἕνεκα προαγωνιστέον· οὗτοι γὰρ καὶ ἐν εἰρήνῃ καὶ κατὰ πόλεμον χρήσιμοι εἴς τε πολιτείαν καὶ ἰδίους οἴκους, οἱ δὲ ἄλλοι πόνοι τε καὶ παιδιαὶ καὶ σπουδαὶ κατὰ σώματα οὐκ ἐλευθέρων, ὦ Μέγιλλέ τε καὶ Κλεινία.ἣν εἶπον γυμναστικὴν ἐν τοῖς πρώτοις λόγοις ὅτι δέοι διεξελθεῖν, σχεδὸν δὴ διελήλυθα τὰ νῦν, καὶ ἔσθʼ αὕτη παντελής· εἰ δέ τινα ταύτης ὑμεῖς ἔχετε βελτίω, θέντες εἰς κοινὸν λέγετε.
796e. Clin. It is no easy thing, Stranger, to reject your account of gymnastic training and competition, and produce a better one.
796e. ΚΛ. οὐ ῥᾴδιον, ὦ ξένε, παρέντας ταῦτα ἄλλα ἔχειν βελτίω τούτων περὶ γυμναστικῆς ἅμα καὶ ἀγωνίας εἰπεῖν.
Ath. The subject which comes next to this, and deals with the gifts of Apollo and the Muses, is one which we previously thought we had done with, and that the only subject left was gymnastic; but I plainly see now, not only what still remains to be said to everybody, but also that it ought to come first. Let us, then, state these points in order.
ΑΘ. τὸ τοίνυν τούτοις ἑξῆς περὶ τὰ τῶν Μουσῶν τε καὶ Ἀπόλλωνος δῶρα, τότε μέν, ὡς ἅπαντα εἰρηκότες, ᾠόμεθα καταλείπειν μόνα τὰ περὶ γυμναστικῆς· νῦν δʼ ἔστιν δῆλα ἅ τʼ ἐστὶν καὶ ὅτι πρῶτα πᾶσιν ῥητέα. λέγωμεν τοίνυν ἑξῆς αὐτά.
Clin. By all means let us do so.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν λεκτέον.
797a. Ath. Give ear to me now, albeit ye have already done so in the past. None the less, one must take great heed, now as before, both in the telling and in the hearing of a thing that is supremely strange and novel. To make the statement that I am going to make is an alarming task; yet I will summon up my courage, and not shrink from it.
797a. ΑΘ. ἀκούσατε δέ μου, προακηκοότες μὲν καὶ ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν· ὅμως δὲ τό γε σφόδρα ἄτοπον καὶ ἄηθες διευλαβεῖσθαι δεῖ λέγοντα καὶ ἀκούοντα, καὶ δὴ καὶ νῦν. ἐρῶ μὲν γὰρ ἐγὼ λόγον οὐκ ἄφοβον εἰπεῖν, ὅμως δέ πῃ θαρρήσας οὐκ ἀποστήσομαι.
Clin. What is the statement you refer to, Stranger?
ΚΛ. τίνα δὴ τοῦτον, ὦ ξένε, λέγεις;
Ath. I assert that there exists in every State a complete ignorance about children’s games—how that they are of decisive importance for legislation, as determining whether the laws enacted are to be permanent or not. For when the program of games is prescribed and secures that the same children always play the same games and delight in the same toys in the same way and under the same conditions, it allows the real and serious laws also to remain undisturbed; but when these games vary and suffer innovations, amongst other constant alterations the children are always shifting their fancy from one game to another, so that neither in respect of their own bodily gestures nor in respect of their equipment have they any fixed and acknowledged standard of propriety and impropriety; but the man they hold in special honor is he who is always innovating or introducing some novel device in the matter of form or color or something of the sort; whereas it would be perfectly true to say that a State can have no worse pest than a man of that description, since he privily alters the characters of the young, and causes them to contemn what is old and esteem what is new.
ΑΘ. φημὶ κατὰ πάσας πόλεις τὸ τῶν παιδιῶν γένος ἠγνοῆσθαι σύμπασιν ὅτι κυριώτατόν ἐστι περὶ θέσεως νόμων, ἢ μονίμους εἶναι τοὺς τεθέντας ἢ μή. ταχθὲν μὲν γὰρ αὐτὸ καὶ μετασχὸν τοῦ τὰ αὐτὰ κατὰ τὰ αὐτὰ καὶ ὡσαύτως ἀεὶ τοὺς αὐτοὺς παίζειν τε καὶ εὐθυμεῖσθαι τοῖς αὐτοῖς παιγνίοις, ἐᾷ καὶ τὰ σπουδῇ κείμενα νόμιμα μένειν ἡσυχῇ, κινούμενα δὲ τὰ αὐτὰ καὶ καινοτομούμενα, μεταβολαῖς τε ἄλλαις ἀεὶ χρώμενα, καὶ μηδέποτε ταὐτὰ φίλα προσαγορευόντων τῶν νέων, μήτʼ ἐν σχήμασιν τοῖς τῶν αὑτῶν σωμάτων μήτε ἐν τοῖς ἄλλοις σκεύεσιν ὁμολογουμένως αὐτοῖς ἀεὶ κεῖσθαι τό τʼ εὔσχημον καὶ ἄσχημον, ἀλλὰ τόν
797c. And I repeat again that there is no greater mischief a State can suffer than such a dictum and doctrine: just listen while I tell you how great an evil it is.
797c. τι νέον ἀεὶ καινοτομοῦντα καὶ εἰσφέροντα τῶν εἰωθότων ἕτερον κατά τε σχήματα καὶ χρώματα καὶ πάντα ὅσα τοιαῦτα, τοῦτον τιμᾶσθαι διαφερόντως, τούτου πόλει λώβην οὐκ εἶναι μείζω φαῖμεν ἂν ὀρθότατα λέγοντες· λανθάνειν γὰρ τῶν νέων τὰ ἤθη μεθιστάντα καὶ ποιεῖν τὸ μὲν ἀρχαῖον παρʼ αὐτοῖς ἄτιμον, τὸ δὲ νέον ἔντιμον. τούτου δὲ πάλιν αὖ λέγω τοῦ τε ῥήματος καὶ τοῦ δόγματος οὐκ εἶναι ζημίαν μείζω πάσαις πόλεσιν· ἀκούσατε δὲ ὅσον φημὶ αὔτʼ εἶναι κακόν.
Clin. Do you mean the way people rail at antiquity in States?
ΚΛ. ἦ τὸ ψέγεσθαι τὴν ἀρχαιότητα λέγεις ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν;
Ath. Precisely.
ΑΘ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Clin. That is a theme on which you will find us no grudging listeners, but the most sympathetic possible.
ΚΛ. οὐ φαύλους τοίνυν ἡμᾶς ἂν ἀκροατὰς πρὸς αὐτὸν τὸν λόγον ἔχοις ἂν τοῦτον, ἀλλʼ ὡς δυνατὸν εὐμενεστάτους.
Ath. I should certainly expect it to be so.
ΑΘ. εἰκὸς γοῦν.
Clin. Only say on.
ΚΛ. λέγε μόνον.
Ath. Come now, let us listen to one another and address one another on this subject with greater care than ever. Nothing, as we shall find, is more perilous than change in respect of everything, save only what is bad,—in respect of seasons, winds, bodily diet, mental disposition, everything in short with the solitary exception, as I said just now, of the bad.
ΑΘ. ἴτε δή, μειζόνως αὐτὸν ἀκούσωμέν τε ἡμῶν αὐτῶν καὶ πρὸς ἀλλήλους οὕτως εἴπωμεν. μεταβολὴν γὰρ δὴ πάντων πλὴν κακῶν πολὺ σφαλερώτατον εὑρήσομεν ἐν ὥραις πάσαις, ἐν πνεύμασιν, ἐν διαίταις σωμάτων, ἐν τρόποις ψυχῶν, ἐν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οὐ τοῖς μέν, τοῖς δʼ οὔ, πλήν, ὅτιπερ εἶπον νυνδή, κακοῖς·
797e. Accordingly, if one considers the human body, and sees how it grows used to all kinds of meats and drinks and exercises, even though at first upset by them, and how presently out of these very materials it grows flesh that is akin to them, and acquiring thus a familiar acquaintance with, and fondness for, all this diet, lives a most healthy and pleasant life;
797e. ὥστε, εἴ τις ἀποβλέψειε πρὸς σώματα, ὡς πᾶσι μὲν σιτίοις, πᾶσι δʼ αὖ ποτοῖς καὶ πόνοις συνήθη γιγνόμενα, καὶ τὸ πρῶτον ταραχθέντα ὑπʼ αὐτῶν, ἔπειτʼ ἐξ αὐτῶν τούτων ὑπὸ χρόνου σάρκας φύσαντα οἰκείας τούτοις, φίλα τε καὶ συνήθη καὶ γνώριμα γενόμενα ἁπάσῃ ταύτῃ τῇ διαίτῃ πρὸς ἡδονὴν καὶ ὑγίειαν ἄριστα διάγει,
798. Ath. and further, should a man be forced again to change back to one of the highly-reputed diets, how he is upset and ill at first, and recovers with difficulty as he gets used again to the food,—it is precisely the same, we must suppose, with the intellects of men and the nature of their souls. For if there exist laws under which men have been reared up and which (by the blessing of Heaven) have remained unaltered for many centuries, so that there exists no recollection or report of their ever having been different from what they now are,—then the whole soul is forbidden by reverence and fear to alter any of the things established of old.
798. ΑΘ. καὶ ἄν ποτʼ ἄρα ἀναγκασθῇ μεταβάλλειν αὖθις ἡντινοῦν τῶν εὐδοκίμων διαιτῶν, τό γε κατʼ ἀρχὰς συνταραχθεὶς ὑπὸ νόσων μόγις ποτὲ κατέστη, τὴν συνήθειαν τῇ τροφῇ πάλιν ἀπολαβών, ταὐτὸν δὴ δεῖ νομίζειν τοῦτο γίγνεσθαι καὶ περὶ τὰς τῶν ἀνθρώπων διανοίας τε ἅμα καὶ τὰς τῶν ψυχῶν φύσεις. οἷς γὰρ ἂν ἐντραφῶσιν νόμοις καὶ κατά τινα θείαν εὐτυχίαν ἀκίνητοι γένωνται μακρῶν καὶ πολλῶν χρόνων, ὡς μηδένα ἔχειν μνείαν μηδὲ ἀκοὴν τοῦ ποτε ἄλλως αὐτὰ σχεῖν ἢ καθάπερ νῦν ἔχει, σέβεται καὶ φοβεῖται πᾶσα ἡ ψυχὴ τό τι κινεῖν τῶν τότε καθεστώτων.
798b. By hook or by crook, then, the lawgiver must devise a means whereby this shall be true of his State. Now here is where I discover the means desired:—Alterations in children’s games are regarded by all lawgivers (as we said above ) as being mere matters of play, and not as the causes of serious mischief; hence, instead of forbidding them, they give in to them and adopt them. They fail to reflect that those children who innovate in their games grow up into men different from their fathers; and being thus different themselves, they seek a different mode of life, and having sought this, they come to desire other institutions and laws; and none of them dreads the consequent approach of that result which we described just now as the greatest of all banes to a State.
798b. μηχανὴν δὴ δεῖ τὸν νομοθέτην ἐννοεῖν ἁμόθεν γέ ποθεν ὅντινα τρόπον τοῦτʼ ἔσται τῇ πόλει. τῇδʼ οὖν ἔγωγε εὑρίσκω. τὰς παιδιὰς πάντες διανοοῦνται κινουμένας τῶν νέων, ὅπερ ἔμπροσθεν ἐλέγομεν, παιδιὰς ὄντως εἶναι καὶ οὐ τὴν μεγίστην ἐξ αὐτῶν σπουδὴν καὶ βλάβην συμβαίνειν, ὥστε οὐκ ἀποτρέπουσιν ἀλλὰ συνέπονται ὑπείκοντες, καὶ οὐ λογίζονται τόδε, ὅτι τούτους ἀνάγκη τοὺς παῖδας τοὺς ἐν ταῖς παιδιαῖς νεωτερίζοντας ἑτέρους ἄνδρας τῶν ἔμπροσθεν γενέσθαι παίδων, γενομένους δὲ ἄλλους, ἄλλον βίον ζητεῖν, ζητήσαντας δέ, ἑτέρων ἐπιτηδευμάτων καὶ νόμων ἐπιθυμῆσαι, καὶ μετὰ τοῦτο ὡς ἥξοντος τοῦ νυνδὴ λεγομένου μεγίστου κακοῦ πόλεσιν
798d. The evil wrought by changes in outward forms would be of less importance; but frequent changes in matters involving moral approval and disapproval are, as I maintain, of extreme importance, and require the utmost caution.
798d. οὐδεὶς αὐτῶν φοβεῖται. τὰ μὲν οὖν ἄλλα ἐλάττω μεταβαλλόμενα κακὰ διεξεργάζοιτʼ ἄν, ὅσα περὶ σχήματα πάσχει τὸ τοιοῦτον· ὅσα δὲ περὶ τὰ τῶν ἠθῶν ἐπαίνου τε καὶ ψόγου πέρι πυκνὰ μεταπίπτει, πάντων, οἴομαι, μέγιστά τε καὶ πλείστης εὐλαβείας δεόμενα ἂν εἴη.
Clin. Most certainly.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Ath. Well, then, do we still put our trust in those former statements of ours, in which we said that matters of rhythm and music generally are imitations of the manners of good or bad men?
ΑΘ. τί οὖν; τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν λόγοις πιστεύομεν, οἷς ἐλέγομεν ὡς τὰ περὶ τοὺς ῥυθμοὺς καὶ πᾶσαν μουσικήν ἐστιν τρόπων μιμήματα βελτιόνων καὶ χειρόνων ἀνθρώπων;
798e. Or how do we stand?
798e. ἢ πῶς;
Clin. Our view at least remains unaltered.
ΚΛ. οὐδαμῶς ἄλλως πως τό γε παρʼ ἡμῖν δόγμα ἔχον ἂν εἴη.
Ath. We assert, then, that every means must be employed, not only to prevent our children from desiring to copy different models in dancing or singing, but also to prevent anyone from tempting them by the inducement of pleasures of all sorts.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν, φαμέν, ἅπασαν μηχανητέον μηχανὴν ὅπως ἂν ἡμῖν οἱ παῖδες μήτε ἐπιθυμῶσιν ἄλλων μιμημάτων ἅπτεσθαι κατὰ ὀρχήσεις ἢ κατὰ μελῳδίας, μήτε τις αὐτοὺς πείσῃ προσάγων παντοίας ἡδονάς;
Clin. Quite right.
ΚΛ. ὀρθότατα λέγεις.
799a. Ath. To attain this end, can any one of us suggest a better device than that of the Egyptians?
799a. ΑΘ. ἔχει τις οὖν ἡμῶν ἐπὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα βελτίω τινα τέχνην τῆς τῶν Αἰγυπτίων;
Clin. What device is that?
ΚΛ. ποίας δὴ λέγεις;
Ath. The device of consecrating all dancing and all music. First, they should ordain the sacred feasts, by drawing up an annual list of what feasts are to be held, and on what dates, and in honor of what special gods and children of gods and daemons; and they should ordain next what hymn is to be sung at each of the religious sacrifices, and with what dances each such sacrifice is to be graced; these ordinances should be first made by certain persons, and then the whole body of citizens, after making a public sacrifice to the Fates and all the other deities, should consecrate with a libation these ordinances—dedicating each of the hymns to their respective gods and divinities.
ΑΘ. τοῦ καθιερῶσαι πᾶσαν μὲν ὄρχησιν, πάντα δὲ μέλη, τάξαντας πρῶτον μὲν τὰς ἑορτάς, συλλογισαμένους εἰς τὸν ἐνιαυτὸν ἅστινας ἐν οἷς χρόνοις καὶ οἷστισιν ἑκάστοις τῶν θεῶν καὶ παισὶ τούτων καὶ δαίμοσι γίγνεσθαι χρεών, μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο, ἐπὶ τοῖς τῶν θεῶν θύμασιν ἑκάστοις ἣν ᾠδὴν δεῖ ἐφυμνεῖσθαι, καὶ χορείαις ποίαισιν γεραίρειν τὴν τότε θυσίαν, τάξαι μὲν πρῶτόν τινας, ἃ δʼ ἂν ταχθῇ, Μοίραις καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις πᾶσι θεοῖς θύσαντας κοινῇ πάντας τοὺς πολίτας, σπένδοντας καθιεροῦν ἑκάστας τὰς ᾠδὰς ἑκάστοις τῶν θεῶν καὶ τῶν ἄλλων·
799b. And if any man proposes other hymns or dances besides these for any god, the priests and priestesses will be acting in accordance with both religion and law when, with the help of the Law-wardens, they expel him from the feast; and if the man resists expulsion, he shall be liable, so long as he lives, to be prosecuted for impiety by anyone who chooses.
799b. ἂν δὲ παρʼ αὐτά τίς τῳ θεῶν ἄλλους ὕμνους ἢ χορείας προσάγῃ, τοὺς ἱερέας τε καὶ τὰς ἱερείας μετὰ νομοφυλάκων ἐξείργοντας ὁσίως ἐξείργειν καὶ κατὰ νόμον, τὸν δὲ ἐξειργόμενον, ἂν μὴ ἑκὼν ἐξείργηται, δίκας ἀσεβείας διὰ βίου παντὸς τῷ ἐθελήσαντι παρέχειν.
Clin. That is right.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς.
799c. Ath. Since we find ourselves now dealing with this theme, let us behave as befits ourselves.
799c. ΑΘ. πρὸς τούτῳ δὴ νῦν γενόμενοι τῷ λόγῳ, πάθωμεν τὸ πρέπον ἡμῖν αὐτοῖς.
Clin. In what respect?
ΚΛ. τοῦ πέρι λέγεις;
Ath. Every young man—not to speak of old men—on hearing or seeing anything unusual and strange, is likely to avoid jumping to a hasty and impulsive solution of his doubts about it, and to stand still; just as a man who has come to a crossroads and is not quite sure of his way, if he be travelling alone, will question himself, or if travelling with others, will question them too about the matter in doubt, and refuse to proceed until he has made sure by investigation of the direction of his path.
ΑΘ. πᾶς που νέος, μὴ ὅτι πρεσβύτης, ἰδὼν ἂν ἢ καὶ ἀκούσας ὁτιοῦν τῶν ἐκτόπων καὶ μηδαμῇ πως συνήθων, οὐκ ἄν ποτέ που τὸ ἀπορηθὲν περὶ αὐτῶν συγχωρήσειεν ἐπιδραμὼν οὕτως εὐθύς, στὰς δʼ ἄν, καθάπερ ἐν τριόδῳ γενόμενος καὶ μὴ σφόδρα κατειδὼς ὁδόν, εἴτε μόνος εἴτε μετʼ ἄλλων τύχοι πορευόμενος, ἀνέροιτʼ ἂν αὑτὸν καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους τὸ ἀπορούμενον, καὶ οὐκ ἂν πρότερον ὁρμήσειεν, πρίν πῃ βεβαιώσαιτο τὴν σκέψιν τῆς πορείας ὅπῃ ποτὲ φέρει.
799d. We must now do likewise. In our discourse about laws, the point which has now occurred to us being strange, we are bound to investigate it closely; and in a matter so weighty we, at our age, must not lightly assume or assert that we can make any reliable statement about it on the spur of the moment.
799d. καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸ παρὸν ἡμῖν ὡσαύτως ποιητέον· ἀτόπου γὰρ τὰ νῦν ἐμπεπτωκότος λόγου περὶ νόμων, ἀνάγκη που σκέψιν πᾶσαν ποιήσασθαι, καὶ μὴ ῥᾳδίως οὕτως περὶ τοσούτων τηλικούτους ὄντας φάναι διισχυριζομένους ἐν τῷ παραχρῆμά τι σαφὲς ἂν εἰπεῖν ἔχειν.
Clin. That is very true.
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
799e. Ath. We shall, therefore, devote some time to this subject, and only when we have investigated it thoroughly shall we regard our conclusions as certain. But lest we be uselessly hindered from completing the ordinance which accompanies the laws with which we are now concerned, let us proceed to their conclusion. For very probably (if Heaven so will) this exposition, when completely brought to its conclusion, may also clear up the problem now before us.
799e. ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν τούτῳ μὲν χρόνον δώσομεν, βεβαιώσομεν δὲ τότε αὐτό, ὁπόταν σκεψώμεθα ἱκανῶς· ἵνα δὲ μὴ τὴν ἑπομένην τάξιν τοῖς νόμοις τοῖς νῦν ἡμῖν παροῦσι διαπεράνασθαι κωλυθῶμεν μάτην, ἴωμεν πρὸς τὸ τέλος αὐτῶν. τάχα γὰρ ἴσως, εἰ θεὸς ἐθέλοι, κἂν ἡ διέξοδος αὕτη ὅλη σχοῦσα τέλος ἱκανῶς ἂν μηνύσειε καὶ τὸ νῦν διαπορούμενον.
Clin. Well said, Stranger: let us do just as you say.
ΚΛ. ἄριστʼ, ὦ ξένε, λέγεις, καὶ ποιῶμεν οὕτως ὡς εἴρηκας.
800. Ath. Let the strange fact be granted, we say, that our hymns are now made into “nomes” (laws), just as the men of old, it would seem, gave this name to harp-tunes,— so that they, too, perhaps, would not wholly disagree with our present suggestion, but one of them may have divined it vaguely, as in a dream by night or a waking vision: anyhow, let this be the decree on the matter:—In violation of public tunes and sacred songs and the whole choristry of the young, just as in violation of any other “nome” (law), no person shall utter a note or move a limb in the dance.
800. ΑΘ. δεδόχθω μὲν δή, φαμέν, τὸ ἄτοπον τοῦτο, νόμους τὰς ᾠδὰς ἡμῖν γεγονέναι, καὶ καθάπερ οἱ παλαιοὶ τότε περὶ κιθαρῳδίαν οὕτω πως, ὡς ἔοικεν, ὠνόμασαν—ὥστε τάχʼ ἂν οὐδʼ ἐκεῖνοι παντάπασί γʼ ἂν ἀφεστῶτες εἶεν τοῦ νῦν λεγομένου, καθʼ ὕπνον δὲ οἷόν πού τις ἢ καὶ ὕπαρ ἐγρηγορὼς ὠνείρωξεν μαντευόμενος αὐτό—τὸ δʼ οὖν δόγμα περὶ αὐτοῦ τοῦτʼ ἔστω·
800a. He that obeys shall be free of all penalty; but he that disobeys shall (as we said just now) be punished by the Law-wardens, the priestesses and the priests. Shall we now lay down these enactments in our statement?
800a. παρὰ τὰ δημόσια μέλη τε καὶ ἱερὰ καὶ τὴν τῶν νέων σύμπασαν χορείαν μηδεὶς μᾶλλον ἢ παρʼ ὁντινοῦν ἄλλον τῶν νόμων φθεγγέσθω μηδʼ ἐν ὀρχήσει κινείσθω. καὶ ὁ μὲν τοιοῦτος ἀζήμιος ἀπαλλαττέσθω, τὸν δὲ μὴ πειθόμενον, καθάπερ ἐρρήθη νυνδή, νομοφύλακές τε καὶ ἱέρειαι καὶ ἱερῆς κολαζόντων. κείσθω δὲ νῦν ἡμῖν ταῦτα τῷ λόγῳ;
Clin. Yes, lay them down.
ΚΛ. κείσθω.
Ath. How shall we enact these rules by law in such a way as to escape ridicule? Let us consider yet another point concerning them. The safest plan is to begin by framing in our discourse some typical cases, so to call them; one such case I may describe in this way. Suppose that, when a sacrifice is being performed and the offerings duly burned, some private worshipper—a son or a brother —when standing beside the altar and the offering, should blaspheme most blasphemously, would not his voice bring upon his father and the rest of the family a feeling of despair and evil forebodings?
ΑΘ. τίνα δὴ τρόπον αὐτὰ νομοθετῶν τις μὴ παντάπασιν καταγέλαστος γίγνοιτʼ ἄν; ἴδωμεν δὴ τὸ τοιόνδʼ ἔτι περὶ αὐτά. ἀσφαλέστατον καθάπερ ἐκμαγεῖʼ ἄττʼ αὐτοῖσιν πρῶτον πλάσασθαι τῷ λόγῳ, λέγω δὲ ἓν μὲν τῶν ἐκμαγείων εἶναι τοιόνδε τι· θυσίας γενομένης καὶ ἱερῶν καυθέντων κατὰ νόμον, εἴ τῴ τις, φαμέν, ἰδίᾳ παραστὰς τοῖς βωμοῖς τε καὶ ἱεροῖς, ὑὸς ἢ καὶ ἀδελφός, βλασφημοῖ πᾶσαν βλασφημίαν, ἆρʼ οὐκ, ἂν φαῖμεν, ἀθυμίαν καὶ κακὴν ὄτταν καὶ μαντείαν πατρὶ καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις ἂν οἰκείοις φθέγγοιτο ἐντιθείς;
800c. Clin. It would.
800c. ΚΛ. τί μήν;
Ath. Well, in our part of the world this is what happens, one may almost say, in nearly every one of the States. Whenever a magistrate holds a public sacrifice, the next thing is for a crowd of choirs— not merely one—to advance and take their stand, not at a distance from the altars, but often quite close to them; and then they let out a flood of blasphemy over the sacred offerings, racking the souls of their audience with words, rhythms and tunes most dolorous, and the man that succeeds at once in drawing most tears from the sacrificing city carries off the palm of victory.
ΑΘ. ἐν τοίνυν τοῖς παρʼ ἡμῖν τόποις τοῦτʼ ἐστὶν ταῖς πόλεσι γιγνόμενον ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν σχεδὸν ὀλίγου πάσαις· δημοσίᾳ γάρ τινα θυσίαν ὅταν ἀρχή τις θύσῃ, μετὰ ταῦτα χορὸς οὐχ εἷς ἀλλὰ πλῆθος χορῶν ἥκει, καὶ στάντες οὐ πόρρω τῶν βωμῶν ἀλλὰ παρʼ αὐτοὺς ἐνίοτε, πᾶσαν βλασφημίαν τῶν ἱερῶν καταχέουσιν, ῥήμασί τε καὶ ῥυθμοῖς καὶ γοωδεστάταις ἁρμονίαις συντείνοντες τὰς τῶν ἀκροωμένων ψυχάς, καὶ ὃς ἂν δακρῦσαι μάλιστα τὴν θύσασαν παραχρῆμα ποιήσῃ πόλιν, οὗτος τὰ νικητήρια φέρει.
800d. Must we not reject such a custom as this? For if it is ever really necessary that the citizens should listen to such doleful strains, it would be more fitting that the choirs that attend should be hired from abroad, and that not on holy days but only on fast-days— just as a corpse is escorted with Carian music by hired mourners.
800d. τοῦτον δὴ τὸν νόμον ἆρʼ οὐκ ἀποψηφιζόμεθα; καὶ εἴ ποτʼ ἄρα δεῖ τοιούτων οἴκτων γίγνεσθαι τοὺς πολίτας ἐπηκόους, ὁπόταν ἡμέραι μὴ καθαραί τινες ἀλλὰ ἀποφράδες ὦσιν, τόθʼ ἥκειν δέον ἂν εἴη μᾶλλον χορούς τινας ἔξωθεν μεμισθωμένους ᾠδούς, οἷον οἱ περὶ τοὺς τελευτήσαντας μισθούμενοι Καρικῇ τινι μούσῃ προπέμπουσι τοὺς τελευτήσαντας;
800e. Such music would also form the fitting accompaniment for hymns of this kind; and the garb befitting these funeral hymns would not be any crowns nor gilded ornaments, but just the opposite, for I want to get done with this subject as soon as I can. Only I would have us ask ourselves again this single question,—are we satisfied to lay this down as our first typical rule for hymns?
800e. τοιοῦτόν που πρέπον ἂν εἴη καὶ περὶ τὰς τοιαύτας ᾠδὰς γιγνόμενον, καὶ δὴ καὶ στολή γέ που ταῖς ἐπικηδείοις ᾠδαῖς οὐ στέφανοι πρέποιεν ἂν οὐδʼ ἐπίχρυσοι κόσμοι, πᾶν δὲ τοὐναντίον, ἵνʼ ὅτι τάχιστα περὶ αὐτῶν λέγων ἀπαλλάττωμαι. τὸ δὲ τοσοῦτον ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς ἐπανερωτῶ πάλιν, τῶν ἐκμαγείων ταῖς ᾠδαῖς εἰ πρῶτον ἓν τοῦθʼ ἡμῖν ἀρέσκον κείσθω.
Clin. What rule?
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον;
801. Ath. That of auspicious speech; and must we have a kind of hymn that is altogether in all respects auspicious?
801. ΑΘ. εὐφημία, καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸ τῆς ᾠδῆς γένος εὔφημον ἡμῖν πάντῃ πάντως ὑπαρχέτω;
801a. Or shall I ordain that it shall be so, without further questioning?
801a. ἢ μηδὲν ἐπανερωτῶ, τιθῶ δὲ τοῦτο οὕτως;
Clin. By all means ordain it so; for that is a law carried by a unanimous vote.
ΚΛ. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν τίθει· νικᾷ γὰρ πάσαισι ταῖς ψήφοις οὗτος ὁ νόμος.
Ath. What then, next to auspicious speech, should be the second law of music? Is it not that prayers should be made on each occasion to those gods to whom offering is made?
ΑΘ. τίς δὴ μετʼ εὐφημίαν δεύτερος ἂν εἴη νόμος μουσικῆς; ἆρʼ οὐκ εὐχὰς εἶναι τοῖς θεοῖς οἷς θύομεν ἑκάστοτε;
Clin. Certainly.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Ath. The third law, I suppose, will be this,—that the poets, knowing that prayers are requests addressed to gods, must take the utmost care lest unwittingly they request a bad thing as though it were a good thing; for if such a prayer were made, it would prove, I fancy, a ludicrous blunder.
ΑΘ. τρίτος δʼ οἶμαι νόμος, ὅτι γνόντας δεῖ τοὺς ποιητὰς ὡς εὐχαὶ παρὰ θεῶν αἰτήσεις εἰσίν, δεῖ δὴ τὸν νοῦν αὐτοὺς σφόδρα προσέχειν μή ποτε λάθωσιν κακὸν ὡς ἀγαθὸν αἰτούμενοι·
801b. Clin. Of course.Ath. Did not our argument convince us, a little while ago, that no Plutus either in gold or in silver should dwell enshrined within the State?Clin. It did.Ath. What then shall we say that this statement serves to illustrate? Is it not this,—that the tribe of poets is not wholly capable of discerning very well what is good and what not?
801b. γελοῖον γὰρ δὴ τὸ πάθος οἶμαι τοῦτʼ ἂν γίγνοιτο, εὐχῆς τοιαύτης γενομένης.ΚΛ. τί μήν;ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ἡμεῖς ἔμπροσθεν σμικρὸν τῷ λόγῳ ἐπείσθημεν ὡς οὔτε ἀργυροῦν δεῖ πλοῦτον οὔτε χρυσοῦν ἐν πόλει ἱδρυμένον ἐνοικεῖν;ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.ΑΘ. τίνος οὖν ποτε παράδειγμα εἰρῆσθαι φῶμεν τοῦτον τὸν λόγον; ἆρʼ οὐ τοῦδε, ὅτι τὸ τῶν ποιητῶν γένος οὐ πᾶν ἱκανόν ἐστι γιγνώσκειν σφόδρα τά τε ἀγαθὰ καὶ μή;
801c. For surely when a poet, suffering from this error, composes prayers either in speech or in song, he will be making our citizens contradict ourselves in their prayers for things of the greatest moment; yet this, as we have said, is an error than which few are greater. So shall we also lay down this as one of our laws and typical cases regarding music?
801c. ποιήσας οὖν δήπου τὶς ποιητὴς ῥήμασιν ἢ καὶ κατὰ μέλος τοῦτο ἡμαρτημένον, εὐχὰς οὐκ ὀρθάς, ἡμῖν τοὺς πολίτας περὶ τῶν μεγίστων εὔχεσθαι τἀναντία ποιήσει· καίτοι τούτου, καθάπερ ἐλέγομεν, οὐ πολλὰ ἁμαρτήματα ἀνευρήσομεν μείζω. θῶμεν δὴ καὶ τοῦτον τῶν περὶ μοῦσαν νόμων καὶ τύπων ἕνα;
Clin. What law? Explain it to us more clearly.
ΚΛ. τίνα; σαφέστερον εἰπὲ ἡμῖν.
Ath. The law that the poet shall compose nothing which goes beyond the limits of what the State holds to be legal and right, fair and good; nor shall he show his compositions to any private person until they have first been shown to the judges appointed to deal with these matters, and to the Law-wardens, and have been approved by them.
ΑΘ. τὸν ποιητὴν παρὰ τὰ τῆς πόλεως νόμιμα καὶ δίκαια ἢ καλὰ ἢ ἀγαθὰ μηδὲν ποιεῖν ἄλλο, τὰ δὲ ποιηθέντα μὴ ἐξεῖναι τῶν ἰδιωτῶν μηδενὶ πρότερον δεικνύναι, πρὶν ἂν αὐτοῖς τοῖς περὶ ταῦτα ἀποδεδειγμένοις κριταῖς καὶ τοῖς νομοφύλαξιν δειχθῇ καὶ ἀρέσῃ·
801d. And in fact we have judges appointed in those whom we selected to be the legislators of music and in the supervisor of education. Well then, I repeat my question,—is this to be laid down as our third law, typical case, and example? What think you?Clin. Be it laid down by all means.Ath. Next to these, it will be most proper to sing hymns and praise to the gods, coupled with prayers; and after the gods will come prayers combined with praise to daemons and heroes, as is befitting to each.Clin. To be sure.
801d. σχεδὸν δὲ ἀποδεδειγμένοι εἰσὶν ἡμῖν οὓς εἱλόμεθα νομοθέτας περὶ τὰ μουσικὰ καὶ τὸν τῆς παιδείας ἐπιμελητήν. τί οὖν; ὃ πολλάκις ἐρωτῶ, κείσθω νόμος ἡμῖν καὶ τύπος ἐκμαγεῖόν τε τρίτον τοῦτο; ἢ πῶς δοκεῖ;ΚΛ. κείσθω· τί μήν;
801e. Ath. This done, we may proceed at once without scruple to formulate this law:—all citizens who have attained the goal of life and have wrought with body or soul noble works and toilsome, and have been obedient to the laws, shall be regarded as fitting objects for praise.Clin. Certainly.
801e. ΑΘ. μετά γε μὴν ταῦτα ὕμνοι θεῶν καὶ ἐγκώμια κεκοινωνημένα εὐχαῖς ᾄδοιτʼ ἂν ὀρθότατα, καὶ μετὰ θεοὺς ὡσαύτως περὶ δαίμονάς τε καὶ ἥρωας μετʼ ἐγκωμίων εὐχαὶ γίγνοιντʼ ἂν τούτοις πᾶσιν πρέπουσαι.ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;ΑΘ. μετά γε μὴν ταῦτʼ ἤδη νόμος ἄνευ φθόνων εὐθὺς γίγνοιτʼ ἂν ὅδε· τῶν πολιτῶν ὁπόσοι τέλος ἔχοιεν τοῦ βίου, κατὰ σώματα ἢ κατὰ ψυχὰς ἔργα ἐξειργασμένοι καλὰ καὶ ἐπίπονα καὶ τοῖς νόμοις εὐπειθεῖς γεγονότες, ἐγκωμίων αὐτοὺς τυγχάνειν πρέπον ἂν εἴη.ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
802a. Ath. But truly it is not safe to honor with hymns and praises those still living, before they have traversed the whole of life and reached a noble end. All such honors shall be equally shared by women as well as men who have been conspicuous for their excellence. As to the songs and the dances, this is the fashion in which they should be arranged. Among the compositions of the ancients there exist many fine old pieces of music, and likewise dances, from which we may select without scruple for the constitution we are founding such as are fitting and proper.
802a. ΑΘ. τούς γε μὴν ἔτι ζῶντας ἐγκωμίοις τε καὶ ὕμνοις τιμᾶν οὐκ ἀσφαλές, πρὶν ἂν ἅπαντά τις τὸν βίον διαδραμὼν τέλος ἐπιστήσηται καλόν· ταῦτα δὲ πάντα ἡμῖν ἔστω κοινὰ ἀνδράσιν τε καὶ γυναιξὶν ἀγαθοῖς καὶ ἀγαθαῖς διαφανῶς γενομένοις. τὰς δὲ ᾠδάς τε καὶ ὀρχήσεις οὑτωσὶ χρὴ καθίστασθαι. πολλὰ ἔστιν παλαιῶν παλαιὰ περὶ μουσικὴν καὶ καλὰ ποιήματα, καὶ δὴ καὶ τοῖς σώμασιν ὀρχήσεις ὡσαύτως, ὧν οὐδεὶς φθόνος ἐκλέξασθαι τῇ καθισταμένῃ πολιτείᾳ τὸ πρέπον καὶ ἁρμόττον·
802b. To examine these and make the selection, we shall choose out men not under fifty years of age; and whichever of the ancient songs are approved we shall adopt, but whichever fail to reach our standard, or are altogether unsuitable, we shall either reject entirely or revise and remodel. For this purpose we shall call in the advice of poets and musicians, and make use of their poetical ability, without, however, trusting to their tastes or their wishes, except in rare instances; and by thus expounding the intentions of the lawgiver, we shall organize to his satisfaction dancing, singing, and the whole of choristry.
802b. δοκιμαστὰς δὲ τούτων ἑλομένους τὴν ἐκλογὴν ποιεῖσθαι μὴ νεωτέρους πεντήκοντα ἐτῶν, καὶ ὅτι μὲν ἂν ἱκανὸν εἶναι δόξῃ τῶν παλαιῶν ποιημάτων, ἐγκρίνειν, ὅτι δʼ ἂν ἐνδεὲς ἢ τὸ παράπαν ἀνεπιτήδειον, τὸ μὲν ἀποβάλλεσθαι παντάπασιν, τὸ δʼ ἐπανερόμενον ἐπιρρυθμίζειν, ποιητικοὺς ἅμα καὶ μουσικοὺς ἄνδρας παραλαβόντας, χρωμένους αὐτῶν ταῖς δυνάμεσιν τῆς ποιήσεως, ταῖς δὲ ἡδοναῖς καὶ ἐπιθυμίαις μὴ ἐπιτρέποντας ἀλλʼ ἤ τισιν ὀλίγοις, ἐξηγουμένους δὲ τὰ τοῦ νομοθέτου βουλήματα, ὅτι μάλιστα ὄρχησίν τε καὶ ᾠδὴν καὶ πᾶσαν χορείαν συστήσασθαι κατὰ τὸν αὐτῶν νοῦν.
802c. In truth, every unregulated musical pursuit becomes, when brought under regulation, a thousand times better, even when no honeyed strains are served up: all alike provide pleasure. For if a man has been reared from childhood up to the age of steadiness and sense in the use of music that is sober and regulated, then he detests the opposite kind whenever he hears it, and calls it “vulgar”; whereas if he has been reared in the common honeyed kind of music, he declares the opposite of this to be cold and unpleasing.
802c. πᾶσα δʼ ἄτακτός γε τάξιν λαβοῦσα περὶ μοῦσαν διατριβὴ καὶ μὴ παρατιθεμένης τῆς γλυκείας μούσης ἀμείνων μυρίῳ· τὸ δʼ ἡδὺ κοινὸν πάσαις. ἐν ᾗ γὰρ ἂν ἐκ παίδων τις μέχρι τῆς ἑστηκυίας τε καὶ ἔμφρονος ἡλικίας διαβιῷ, σώφρονι μὲν μούσῃ καὶ τεταγμένῃ, ἀκούων δὲ τῆς ἐναντίας, μισεῖ καὶ ἀνελεύθερον αὐτὴν προσαγορεύει, τραφεὶς δʼ ἐν τῇ κοινῇ καὶ γλυκείᾳ, ψυχρὰν καὶ ἀηδῆ τὴν ταύτῃ ἐναντίαν εἶναί φησιν·
802d. Hence, as we said just now, in respect of the pleasure or displeasure they cause neither kind excels the other; where the superiority lies is in the fact that the one kind always makes those who are reared in it better, the other worse.
802d. ὥστε, ὅπερ ἐρρήθη νυνδή, τό γε τῆς ἡδονῆς ἢ ἀηδίας περὶ ἑκατέρας οὐδὲν πεπλεονέκτηκεν, ἐκ περιττοῦ δὲ ἡ μὲν βελτίους, ἡ δὲ χείρους τοὺς ἐν αὐτῇ τραφέντας ἑκάστοτε παρέχεται.
Clin. Finely spoken!
ΚΛ. καλῶς εἴρηκας.
Ath. Further, it will be right for the lawgiver to set apart suitable songs for males and females by making a rough division of them; and he must necessarily adapt them to harmonies and rhythms, for it would be a horrible thing for discord to exist between theme and tune, meter and rhythm, as a result of providing the songs with unsuitable accompaniments.
ΑΘ. ἔτι δὲ θηλείαις τε πρεπούσας ᾠδὰς ἄρρεσί τε χωρίσαι που δέον ἂν εἴη τύπῳ τινὶ διορισάμενον, καὶ ἁρμονίαισιν δὴ καὶ ῥυθμοῖς προσαρμόττειν ἀναγκαῖον·
802e. So the lawgiver must of necessity ordain at least the outline of these. And while it is necessary for him to assign both words and music for both types of song as defined by the natural difference of the two sexes, he must also clearly declare wherein the feminine type consists. Now we may affirm that what is noble and of a manly tendency is masculine, while that which inclines rather to decorum and sedateness is to be regarded rather as feminine both in law and in discourse.
802e. δεινὸν γὰρ ὅλῃ γε ἁρμονίᾳ ἀπᾴδειν ἢ ῥυθμῷ ἀρρυθμεῖν, μηδὲν προσήκοντα τούτων ἑκάστοις ἀποδιδόντα τοῖς μέλεσιν. ἀναγκαῖον δὴ καὶ τούτων τὰ σχήματά γε νομοθετεῖν. ἔστιν δὲ ἀμφοτέροις μὲν ἀμφότερα ἀνάγκῃ κατεχόμενα ἀποδιδόναι, τὰ δὲ τῶν θηλειῶν αὐτῷ τῷ τῆς φύσεως ἑκατέρου διαφέροντι, τούτῳ δεῖ καὶ διασαφεῖν. τὸ δὴ μεγαλοπρεπὲς οὖν καὶ τὸ πρὸς τὴν ἀνδρείαν ῥέπον ἀρρενωπὸν φατέον εἶναι, τὸ δὲ πρὸς τὸ κόσμιον καὶ σῶφρον μᾶλλον ἀποκλῖνον θηλυγενέστερον ὡς ὂν παραδοτέον ἔν τε τῷ νόμῳ καὶ λόγῳ. ΑΘ.τάξις μὲν δή τις αὕτη·
803a. Ath. Such then is our regulation of the matter. We have next to discuss the question of the teaching and imparting of these subjects—how, by whom, and when each of them should be practiced. Just as a shipwright at the commencement of his building outlines the shape of his vessel by laying down her keel, so I appear to myself to be doing just the same—trying to frame, that is, the shapes of lives according to the modes of their souls, and thus literally laying down their keels, by rightly considering by what means and by what modes of living we shall best navigate our barque of life through this voyage of existence.
803a. τούτων δὲ αὐτῶν διδασκαλία καὶ παράδοσις λεγέσθω τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο, τίνα τρόπον χρὴ καὶ οἷστισιν καὶ πότε πράττειν ἕκαστα αὐτῶν. οἷον δή τις ναυπηγὸς τὴν τῆς ναυπηγίας ἀρχὴν καταβαλλόμενος τὰ τροπιδεῖα ὑπογράφεται τῶν πλοίων σχήματα, ταὐτὸν δή μοι κἀγὼ φαίνομαι ἐμαυτῷ δρᾶν, τὰ τῶν βίων πειρώμενος σχήματα διαστήσασθαι κατὰ τρόπους τοὺς τῶν ψυχῶν, ὄντως αὐτῶν τὰ τροπιδεῖα καταβάλλεσθαι, ποίᾳ μηχανῇ καὶ τίσιν ποτὲ τρόποις συνόντες τὸν βίον ἄριστα διὰ τοῦ πλοῦ τούτου τῆς ζωῆς διακομισθησόμεθα, τοῦτο σκοπεῖν ὀρθῶς.
803b. And notwithstanding that human affairs are unworthy of earnest effort, necessity counsels us to be in earnest; and that is our misfortune. Yet, since we are where we are, it is no doubt becoming that we should show this earnestness in a suitable direction. But no doubt I may be faced—and rightly faced—with the question, “What do I mean by this?”
803b. ἔστι δὴ τοίνυν τὰ τῶν ἀνθρώπων πράγματα μεγάλης μὲν σπουδῆς οὐκ ἄξια, ἀναγκαῖόν γε μὴν σπουδάζειν· τοῦτο δὲ οὐκ εὐτυχές. ἐπειδὴ δὲ ἐνταῦθά ἐσμεν, εἴ πως διὰ προσήκοντός τινος αὐτὸ πράττοιμεν, ἴσως ἂν ἡμῖν σύμμετρον ἂν εἴη. λέγω δὲ δὴ τί ποτε; ἴσως μεντἄν τίς μοι τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ ὑπολαβὼν ὀρθῶς ὑπολάβοι.
803c. Clin. Certainly.
803c. ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Ath. What I assert is this,—that a man ought to be in serious earnest about serious things, and not about trifles; and that the object really worthy of all serious and blessed effort is God, while man is contrived, as we said above, to be a plaything of God, and the best part of him is really just that; and thus I say that every man and woman ought to pass through life in accordance with this character, playing at the noblest of pastimes, being otherwise minded than they now are.
ΑΘ. φημὶ χρῆναι τὸ μὲν σπουδαῖον σπουδάζειν, τὸ δὲ μὴ σπουδαῖον μή, φύσει δὲ εἶναι θεὸν μὲν πάσης μακαρίου σπουδῆς ἄξιον, ἄνθρωπον δέ, ὅπερ εἴπομεν ἔμπροσθεν, θεοῦ τι παίγνιον εἶναι μεμηχανημένον, καὶ ὄντως τοῦτο αὐτοῦ τὸ βέλτιστον γεγονέναι· τούτῳ δὴ δεῖν τῷ τρόπῳ συνεπόμενον καὶ παίζοντα ὅτι καλλίστας παιδιὰς πάντʼ ἄνδρα καὶ γυναῖκα οὕτω διαβιῶναι, τοὐναντίον ἢ νῦν διανοηθέντας.
803d. Clin. How so?
803d. ΚΛ. πῶς;
Ath. Now they imagine that serious work should be done for the sake of play; for they think that it is for the sake of peace that the serious work of war needs to be well conducted. But as a matter of fact we, it would seem, do not find in war, either as existing or likely to exist, either real play or education worthy of the name, which is what we assert to be in our eyes the most serious thing. It is the life of peace that everyone should live as much and as well as he can. What then is the right way? We should live out our lives playing at certain pastimes—sacrificing, singing and dancing—so as to be able to win Heaven’s favor and to repel our foes and vanquish them in fight.
ΑΘ. νῦν μέν που τὰς σπουδὰς οἴονται δεῖν ἕνεκα τῶν παιδιῶν γίγνεσθαι· τὰ γὰρ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον ἡγοῦνται σπουδαῖα ὄντα τῆς εἰρήνης ἕνεκα δεῖν εὖ τίθεσθαι. τὸ δʼ ἦν ἐν πολέμῳ μὲν ἄρα οὔτʼ οὖν παιδιὰ πεφυκυῖα οὔτʼ αὖ παιδεία ποτὲ ἡμῖν ἀξιόλογος, οὔτε οὖσα οὔτʼ ἐσομένη, ὃ δή φαμεν ἡμῖν γε εἶναι σπουδαιότατον· δεῖ δὴ τὸν κατʼ εἰρήνην βίον ἕκαστον πλεῖστόν τε καὶ ἄριστον διεξελθεῖν. τίς οὖν ὀρθότης; παίζοντά ἐστιν διαβιωτέον τινὰς δὴ παιδιάς, θύοντα καὶ ᾄδοντα καὶ ὀρχούμενον, ὥστε τοὺς μὲν θεοὺς ἵλεως αὑτῷ παρασκευάζειν δυνατὸν εἶναι, τοὺς δʼ ἐχθροὺς ἀμύνεσθαι καὶ νικᾶν μαχόμενον·
804. Ath. By means of what kinds of song and dance both these aims may be effected,—this has been, in part, stated in outline, and the paths of procedure have been marked out, in the belief that the poet is right when he says— Telemachus, thine own wit will in partInstruct thee, and the rest will Heaven supply;For to the will of Heaven thou owest birthAnd all thy nurture, I would fain believe.
804. ΑΘ. ὁποῖα δὲ ᾄδων ἄν τις καὶ ὀρχούμενος ἀμφότερα ταῦτα πράττοι, τὸ μὲν τῶν τύπων εἴρηται καὶ καθάπερ ὁδοὶ τέτμηνται καθʼ ἃς ἰτέον, προσδοκῶντα καὶ τὸν ποιητὴν εὖ λέγειν τὸ— Τηλέμαχʼ, ἄλλα μὲν αὐτὸς ἐνὶ φρεσὶ σῇσι νοήσεις,ἄλλα δὲ καὶ δαίμων ὑποθήσεται·
804a. It behoves our nurslings also to be of this same mind, and to believe that what we have said is sufficient, and that the heavenly powers will suggest to them all else that concerns sacrifice and the dance,— in honor of what gods and at what seasons respectively they are to play and win their favor, and thus mold their lives according to the shape of their nature, inasmuch as they are puppets for the most part, yet share occasionally in truth.
804a. οὐ γὰρ ὀίωοὔ σε θεῶν ἀέκητι γενέσθαι τε τραφέμεν τε.ταὐτὸν δὴ καὶ τοὺς ἡμετέρους τροφίμους δεῖ διανοουμένους τὰ μὲν εἰρημένα ἀποχρώντως νομίζειν εἰρῆσθαι, τὰ δὲ καὶ τὸν δαίμονά τε καὶ θεὸν αὐτοῖσιν ὑποθήσεσθαι θυσιῶν τε πέρι καὶ χορειῶν, οἷστισί τε καὶ ὁπότε ἕκαστα ἑκάστοις προσπαίζοντές τε καὶ ἱλεούμενοι κατὰ τὸν τρόπον τῆς φύσεως διαβιώσονται, θαύματα ὄντες τὸ πολύ, σμικρὰ δὲ ἀληθείας ἄττα μετέχοντες.
804b. Meg. You have a very mean opinion, Stranger, of the human race.
804b. ΜΕ. παντάπασι τὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων γένος ἡμῖν, ὦ ξένε, διαφαυλίζεις.
Ath. Marvel not, Megillus, but forgive me. For when I spoke thus, I had my mind set on God, and was feeling the emotion to which I gave utterance. Let us grant, however, if you wish, that the human race is not a mean thing, but worthy of serious attention.
ΑΘ. μὴ θαυμάσῃς, ὦ Μέγιλλε, ἀλλὰ σύγγνωθί μοι· πρὸς γὰρ τὸν θεὸν ἀπιδὼν καὶ παθὼν εἶπον ὅπερ εἴρηκα νῦν. ἔστω δʼ οὖν τὸ γένος ἡμῶν μὴ φαῦλον, εἴ σοι φίλον, σπουδῆς δέ τινος ἄξιον.τὸ δʼ ἑξῆς τούτοις, οἰκοδομίαι μὲν εἴρηνται γυμνασίων ἅμα καὶ διδασκαλείων κοινῶν τριχῇ κατὰ μέσην τὴν πόλιν, ἔξωθεν δὲ ἵππων αὖ τριχῇ περὶ τὸ ἄστυ γυμνάσιά τε καὶ εὐρυχώρια, τοξικῆς τε καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἀκροβολισμῶν ἕνεκα διακεκοσμημένα, μαθήσεώς τε ἅμα καὶ μελέτης τῶν νέων·
804c. To pursue our subject,—we have described buildings for public gymnasia as well as schools in three divisions within the city, and also in three divisions round about the City training-grounds and race-courses for horses, arranged for archery and other long-distance shooting, and for the teaching and practicing of the youth: if, however, our previous description of these was inadequate, let them now be described and legally regulated. In all these establishments there should reside teachers attracted by pay from abroad for each several subject, to instruct the pupils in all matters relating to war and to music; and no father shall either send his son as a pupil or keep him away from the training-school at his own sweet will, but every “man jack” of them all (as the saying goes) must, so far as possible, be compelled to be educated, inasmuch as they are children of the State even more than children of their parents.
804c. εἰ δʼ ἄρα μὴ τότε ἱκανῶς ἐρρήθησαν, νῦν εἰρήσθω τῷ λόγῳ μετὰ νόμων. ἐν δὲ τούτοις πᾶσιν διδασκάλους ἑκάστων πεπεισμένους μισθοῖς οἰκοῦντας ξένους διδάσκειν τε πάντα ὅσα πρὸς τὸν πόλεμόν ἐστιν μαθήματα τοὺς φοιτῶντας ὅσα τε πρὸς μουσικήν, οὐχ ὃν μὲν ἂν ὁ πατὴρ βούληται, φοιτῶντα, ὃν δʼ ἂν μή, ἐῶντα τὰς παιδείας, ἀλλὰ τὸ λεγόμενον πάντʼ ἄνδρα καὶ παῖδα κατὰ τὸ δυνατόν, ὡς τῆς πόλεως μᾶλλον ἢ τῶν γεννητόρων ὄντας, παιδευτέον ἐξ ἀνάγκης.
804d. For females, too, my law will lay down the same regulations as for men, and training of an identical kind.
804d. τὰ αὐτὰ δὲ δὴ καὶ περὶ θηλειῶν ὁ μὲν ἐμὸς νόμος ἂν εἴποι πάντα ὅσαπερ καὶ περὶ τῶν ἀρρένων, ἴσα καὶ τὰς θηλείας ἀσκεῖν δεῖν·
804e. I will unhesitatingly affirm that neither riding nor gymnastics, which are proper for men, are improper for women.
804e. καὶ οὐδὲν φοβηθεὶς εἴποιμʼ ἂν τοῦτον τὸν λόγον οὔτε ἱππικῆς οὔτε γυμναστικῆς, ὡς ἀνδράσι μὲν πρέπον ἂν εἴη, γυναιξὶ δὲ οὐκ ἂν πρέπον.
805. Ath. I believe the old tales I have heard, and I know now of my own observation, that there are practically countless myriads of women called Sauromatides, in the district of Pontus, upon whom equally with men is imposed the duty of handling bows and other weapons, as well as horses, and who practice it equally.
805. ΑΘ.ἀκούων μὲν γὰρ δὴ μύθους παλαιοὺς πέπεισμαι, τὰ δὲ νῦν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οἶδα ὅτι μυριάδες ἀναρίθμητοι γυναικῶν εἰσι τῶν περὶ τὸν Πόντον, ἃς Σαυρομάτιδας καλοῦσιν, αἷς οὐχ ἵππων μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ τόξων καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ὅπλων κοινωνία καὶ τοῖς ἀνδράσιν ἴση προστεταγμένη ἴσως ἀσκεῖται.
805a. In addition to this I allege the following argument. Since this state of things can exist, I affirm that the practice which at present prevails in our districts is a most irrational one—namely, that men and women should not all follow the same pursuits with one accord and with all their might. For thus from the same taxation and trouble there arises and exists half a State only instead of a whole one, in nearly every instance; yet surely this would be a surprising blunder for a lawgiver to commit.
805a. λογισμὸν δὲ πρὸς τούτοις περὶ τούτων τοιόνδε τινὰ ἔχω· φημί, εἴπερ ταῦτα οὕτω συμβαίνειν ἐστὶν δυνατά, πάντων ἀνοητότατα τὰ νῦν ἐν τοῖς παρʼ ἡμῖν τόποις γίγνεσθαι τὸ μὴ πάσῃ ῥώμῃ πάντας ὁμοθυμαδὸν ἐπιτηδεύειν ἄνδρας γυναιξὶν ταὐτά. σχεδὸν γὰρ ὀλίγου πᾶσα ἡμίσεια πόλις ἀντὶ διπλασίας οὕτως ἔστιν τε καὶ γίγνεται ἐκ τῶν αὐτῶν τελῶν καὶ πόνων·
805b. Clin. So it would seem; yet truly a vast number of the things now mentioned, Stranger, are in conflict with our ordinary polities.Ath. Well, but I said that we should allow the argument to run its full course, and when this is done we should adopt the conclusion we approve.Clin. In this you spoke most reasonably; and you have made me now chide myself for what I said. So say on now what seems good to you.
805b. καίτοι θαυμαστὸν ἂν ἁμάρτημα νομοθέτῃ τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ γίγνοιτο.ΚΛ. ἔοικέν γε· ἔστι μέντοι πάμπολλα ἡμῖν, ὦ ξένε, παρὰ τὰς εἰωθυίας πολιτείας τῶν νῦν λεγομένων. ἀλλὰ γὰρ εἰπὼν τὸν μὲν λόγον ἐᾶσαι διεξελθεῖν, εὖ διελθόντος δέ, οὕτω τὸ δοκοῦν αἱρεῖσθαι δεῖν, μάλα εἶπές τε ἐμμελῶς, πεποίηκάς τέ με τὰ νῦν αὐτὸν ἐμαυτῷ ἐπιπλήττειν ὅτι ταῦτα εἴρηκα·
805c. Ath. What seems good to me, Clinias, as I said before, is this,—that if the possibility of such a state of things taking place had not been sufficiently proved by facts, then it might have been possible to gainsay our statement; but as it is, the man who rejects our law must try some other method, nor shall we be hereby precluded from asserting in our doctrine that the female sex must share with the male, to the greatest extent possible, both in education and in all else.
805c. λέγε οὖν τὸ μετὰ ταῦτα ὅτι σοι κεχαρισμένον ἐστίν.ΑΘ. τόδε ἔμοιγε, ὦ Κλεινία, ὃ καὶ πρόσθεν εἶπον, ὡς, εἰ μὲν ταῦτα ἦν μὴ ἱκανῶς ἔργοις ἐληλεγμένα ὅτι δυνατά ἐστι γίγνεσθαι, τάχα ἦν ἄν τι καὶ ἀντειπεῖν τῷ λόγῳ, νῦν δὲ ἄλλο τί που ζητητέον ἐκείνῳ τῷ τοῦτον τὸν νόμον μηδαμῇ δεχομένῳ, τὸ δʼ ἡμέτερον διακέλευμα ἐν τούτοις οὐκ ἀποσβήσεται τὸ μὴ οὐ λέγειν ὡς δεῖ παιδείας τε καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ὅτι μάλιστα κοινωνεῖν τὸ θῆλυ γένος ἡμῖν τῷ τῶν ἀρρένων γένει.