701b. Meg. Most true.
701b. ΜΕ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
Ath. Next after this form of liberty would come that which refuses to be subject to the rulers; and, following on that, the shirking of submission to one’s parents and elders and their admonitions; then, as the penultimate stage, comes the effort to disregard the laws; while the last stage of all is to lose all respect for oaths or pledges or divinities,—wherein men display and reproduce the character of the Titans of story, who are said to have reverted to their original state, dragging out a painful existence with never any rest from woe.
ΑΘ. ἐφεξῆς δὴ ταύτῃ τῇ ἐλευθερίᾳ ἡ τοῦ μὴ ἐθέλειν τοῖς ἄρχουσι δουλεύειν γίγνοιτʼ ἄν, καὶ ἑπομένη ταύτῃ φεύγειν πατρὸς καὶ μητρὸς καὶ πρεσβυτέρων δουλείαν καὶ νουθέτησιν, καὶ ἐγγὺς τοῦ τέλους οὖσιν νόμων ζητεῖν μὴ ὑπηκόοις εἶναι, πρὸς αὐτῷ δὲ ἤδη τῷ τέλει ὅρκων καὶ πίστεων καὶ τὸ παράπαν θεῶν μὴ φροντίζειν, τὴν λεγομένην παλαιὰν Τιτανικὴν φύσιν ἐπιδεικνῦσι καὶ μιμουμένοις, ἐπὶ τὰ αὐτὰ πάλιν ἐκεῖνα ἀφικομένους, χαλεπὸν αἰῶνα διάγοντας μὴ λῆξαί ποτε κακῶν.
701c. What, again, is our object in saying all this? Evidently, I must, every time, rein in my discourse, like a horse, and not let it run away with me as though it had no bridle in its mouth, and so “get a toss off the donkey” (as the saying goes): consequently, I must once more repeat my question, and ask—“With what object has all this been said?”
701c. τίνος δὴ καὶ ταῦθʼ ἡμῖν αὖ χάριν ἐλέχθη; δεῖν φαίνεται ἔμοιγε οἷόνπερ ἵππον τὸν λόγον ἑκάστοτε ἀναλαμβάνειν, καὶ μὴ καθάπερ ἀχάλινον κεκτημένον τὸ στόμα, βίᾳ ὑπὸ τοῦ λόγου φερόμενον, κατὰ τὴν παροιμίαν ἀπό τινος ὄνου πεσεῖν, ἀλλʼ ἐπανερωτᾶν τὸ νυνδὴ λεχθέν, τὸ τίνος δὴ χάριν ἕνεκα ταῦτα ἐλέχθη;
701d. Meg. Very good.
701d. ΜΕ. καλῶς.
Ath. What has now been said bears on the objects previously stated.
ΑΘ. ταῦτα τοίνυν εἴρηται ἐκείνων ἕνεκα.
Meg. What were they?
ΜΕ. τίνων;
Ath. We said that the lawgiver must aim, in his legislation, at three objectives—to make the State he is legislating for free, and at unity with itself, and possessed of sense. That was so, was it not?
ΑΘ. ἐλέξαμεν ὡς τὸν νομοθέτην δεῖ τριῶν στοχαζόμενον νομοθετεῖν, ὅπως ἡ νομοθετουμένη πόλις ἐλευθέρα τε ἔσται καὶ φίλη ἑαυτῇ καὶ νοῦν ἕξει. ταῦτʼ ἦν· ἦ γάρ;
Meg. Certainly.
ΜΕ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
701e. Ath. With these objects in view, we selected the most despotic of polities and the most absolutely free, and are now enquiring which of these is rightly constituted. When we took a moderate example of each—of despotic rule on the one hand, and liberty on the other,—we observed that there they enjoyed prosperity in the highest degree but when they advanced, the one to the extreme of slavery, the other to the extreme of liberty, then there was no gain to either the one or the other.
701e. ΑΘ. τούτων ἕνεκα δὴ πολιτείας τήν τε δεσποτικωτάτην προελόμενοι καὶ τὴν ἐλευθερικωτάτην, ἐπισκοποῦμεν νυνὶ ποτέρα τούτων ὀρθῶς πολιτεύεται· λαβόντες δὲ αὐτῶν ἑκατέρας μετριότητά τινα, τῶν μὲν τοῦ δεσπόζειν, τῶν δὲ τοῦ ἐλευθεριάσαι, κατείδομεν ὅτι τότε διαφερόντως ἐν αὐταῖς ἐγένετο εὐπραγία, ἐπὶ δὲ τὸ ἄκρον ἀγαγόντων ἑκατέρων, τῶν μὲν δουλείας, τῶν δὲ τοὐναντίου, οὐ συνήνεγκεν οὔτε τοῖς οὔτε τοῖς.
702a. Meg. Most true.
702a. ΜΕ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
Ath. With the same objects in view we surveyed, also, the settling of the Doric host and the homes of Dardanus at the foot of the hills and the colony by the sea and the first men who survived the Flood, together with our previous discourses concerning music and revelry, as well as all that preceded these. The object of all these discourses was to discover how best a State might be managed, and how best the individual citizen might pass his life.
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν αὐτῶν γʼ ἕνεκα καὶ τὸ Δωρικὸν ἐθεασάμεθα κατοικιζόμενον στρατόπεδον καὶ τὰς τοῦ Δαρδάνου ὑπωρείας τε καὶ τὴν ἐπὶ θαλάττῃ κατοίκισιν, καὶ τοὺς πρώτους δὴ τοὺς περιλιπεῖς γενομένους τῆς φθορᾶς, ἔτι δὲ τοὺς ἔμπροσθεν τούτων γενομένους ἡμῖν λόγους περί τε μουσικῆς καὶ μέθης καὶ τὰ τούτων ἔτι πρότερα. ταῦτα γὰρ πάντα εἴρηται τοῦ κατιδεῖν ἕνεκα πῶς ποτʼ ἂν πόλις ἄριστα οἰκοίη, καὶ ἰδίᾳ πῶς ἄν τις βέλτιστα τὸν αὑτοῦ βίον διαγάγοι·
702b. But as to the value of our conclusions, what test can we apply in conversing among ourselves, O Megillus and Clinias?
702b. εἰ δὲ δή τι πεποιήκαμεν προὔργου, τίς ποτʼ ἂν ἔλεγχος γίγνοιτο ἡμῖν πρὸς ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς λεχθείς, ὦ Μέγιλλέ τε καὶ Κλεινία;
Clin. I think, Stranger, that I can perceive one. It is a piece of good luck for me that we have dealt with all these matters in our discourse. For I myself have now come nearly to the point when I shall need them, and my meeting with you and Megillus here was quite opportune. I will make no secret to you of what has befallen me;
ΚΛ. ἐγώ τινα, ὦ ξένε, μοι δοκῶ κατανοεῖν. ἔοικεν κατὰ τύχην τινὰ ἡμῖν τὰ τῶν λόγων τούτων πάντων ὧν διεξήλθομεν γεγονέναι· σχεδὸν γὰρ εἰς χρείαν αὐτῶν ἔγωγʼ ἐλήλυθα τὰ νῦν, καὶ κατά τινα αὖ καιρὸν σύ τε παραγέγονας ἅμα καὶ Μέγιλλος ὅδε.
702c. nay, more, I count it to be a sign from Heaven. The most part of Crete is undertaking to found a colony, and it has given charge of the undertaking to the Cnosians, and the city of Cnosus has entrusted it to me and nine others. We are bidden also to frame laws, choosing such as we please either from our own local laws or from those of other countries, taking no exception to their alien character, provided only that they seem superior. Let us, then, grant this favour to me, and yourselves also;
702c. οὐ γὰρ ἀποκρύψομαι σφὼ τὸ νῦν ἐμοὶ συμβαῖνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ πρὸς οἰωνόν τινα ποιοῦμαι. ἡ γὰρ πλείστη τῆς Κρήτης ἐπιχειρεῖ τινα ἀποικίαν ποιήσασθαι, καὶ προστάττει τοῖς Κνωσίοις ἐπιμεληθῆναι τοῦ πράγματος, ἡ δὲ τῶν Κνωσίων πόλις ἐμοί τε καὶ ἄλλοις ἐννέα· ἅμα δὲ καὶ νόμους τῶν τε αὐτόθι, εἴ τινες ἡμᾶς ἀρέσκουσιν, τίθεσθαι κελεύει, καὶ εἴ τινες ἑτέρωθεν, μηδὲν ὑπολογιζομένους τὸ ξενικὸν αὐτῶν, ἂν βελτίους φαίνωνται. νῦν οὖν ἐμοί τε καὶ ὑμῖν ταύτην δῶμεν χάριν·
702d. let us select from the statements we have made, and build up by arguments the framework of a State, as though we were erecting it from the foundation. In this way we shall be at once investigating our theme, and possibly I may also make use of our framework for the State that is to be formed.
702d. ἐκ τῶν εἰρημένων ἐκλέξαντες, τῷ λόγῳ συστησώμεθα πόλιν, οἷον ἐξ ἀρχῆς κατοικίζοντες, καὶ ἅμα μὲν ἡμῖν οὗ ζητοῦμεν ἐπίσκεψις γενήσεται, ἅμα δὲ ἐγὼ τάχʼ ἂν χρησαίμην εἰς τὴν μέλλουσαν πόλιν ταύτῃ τῇ συστάσει.
Ath. Your proclamation, Clinias, is certainly not a proclamation of war! So, if Megillus has no objection, you may count on me to do all I can to gratify your wish.
ΑΘ. οὐ πόλεμόν γε ἐπαγγέλλεις, ὦ Κλεινία· ἀλλʼ εἰ μή τι Μεγίλλῳ πρόσαντες, τὰ παρʼ ἐμοῦ γε ἡγοῦ σοι πάντα κατὰ νοῦν ὑπάρχειν εἰς δύναμιν.
Clin. It is good to hear that.
ΚΛ. εὖ λέγεις.
Meg. And you can count on me too.
ΜΕ. καὶ μὴν καὶ τὰ παρʼ ἐμοῦ.
702e. Clin. Splendid of you both! But, in the first place, let us try to found the State by word.
702e. ΚΛ. κάλλιστʼ εἰρήκατον. ἀτὰρ πειρώμεθα λόγῳ πρῶτον κατοικίζειν τὴν πόλιν.
704a. Ath. Come now, what is this State going to be, shall we suppose I am not asking for its present name or the name it will have to go by in the future; for this might be derived from the conditions of its settlement, or from some locality, or a river or spring or some local deity might bestow its sacred title on the new State.
704a. ΑΘ. φέρε δή, τίνα δεῖ διανοηθῆναί ποτε τὴν πόλιν ἔσεσθαι; λέγω δὲ οὔτι τοὔνομα αὐτῆς ἐρωτῶν ὅτι ποτʼ ἔστι τὰ νῦν, οὐδὲ εἰς τὸν ἔπειτα χρόνον ὅτι δεήσει καλεῖν αὐτήν— τοῦτο μὲν γὰρ τάχʼ ἂν ἴσως καὶ ὁ κατοικισμὸς αὐτῆς ἤ τις τόπος, ἢ ποταμοῦ τινος ἢ κρήνης ἢ θεῶν ἐπωνυμία τῶν ἐν τῷ τόπῳ, προσθείη τὴν αὑτῶν φήμην καινῇ γενομένῃ τῇ πόλει— τόδε δὲ περὶ αὐτῆς ἐστιν ὃ βουλόμενος μᾶλλον ἐπερωτῶ, πότερον ἐπιθαλαττίδιος ἔσται τις ἢ χερσαία.
704b. The point of my question about it is rather this,—is it to be an inland State, or situated on the sea-coast?Clin. The State which I mentioned just now, Stranger, lies about eighty stades, roughly speaking, from the sea.Ath. Well, has it harbors on the sea-board side, or is it quite without harbors?Clin. It has excellent harbors on that side, Stranger, none better.
704b. ΚΛ. σχεδόν, ὦ ξένε, ἀπέχει θαλάττης γε ἡ πόλις, ἧς πέρι τὰ νυνδὴ λεχθέντα ἡμῖν, εἴς τινας ὀγδοήκοντα σταδίους.ΑΘ. τί δέ; λιμένες ἆρʼ εἰσὶν κατὰ ταῦτα αὐτῆς, ἢ τὸ παράπαν ἀλίμενος;ΚΛ. εὐλίμενος μὲν οὖν ταύτῃ γε ὡς δυνατόν ἐστιν μάλιστα, ὦ ξένε.
704c. Ath. Dear me! how unfortunate! But what of the surrounding country? Is it productive in all respects, or deficient in some products?Clin. There is practically nothing that it is deficient in.Ath. Will there be any State bordering close on it?Clin. None at all, and that is the reason for settling it. Owing to emigration from this district long ago, the country has lain desolate for ever so long.Ath. How about plains, mountains and forests? What extent of each of these does it contain?
704c. ΑΘ. παπαί, οἷον λέγεις. τί δὲ περὶ αὐτὴν ἡ χώρα; πότερα πάμφορος ἢ καί τινων ἐπιδεής;ΚΛ. σχεδὸν οὐδενὸς ἐπιδεής.ΑΘ. γείτων δὲ αὐτῆς πόλις ἆρʼ ἔσται τις πλησίον;ΚΛ. οὐ πάνυ, διὸ καὶ κατοικίζεται· παλαιὰ γάρ τις ἐξοίκησις ἐν τῷ τόπῳ γενομένη τὴν χώραν ταύτην ἔρημον ἀπείργασται χρόνον ἀμήχανον ὅσον.ΑΘ. τί δὲ πεδίων τε καὶ ὀρῶν καὶ ὕλης; πῶς μέρος ἑκάστων ἡμῖν εἴληχεν;ΚΛ. προσέοικε τῇ τῆς ἄλλης Κρήτης φύσει ὅλῃ.
704d. Clin. As a whole, it resembles in character the rest of Crete.Ath. You would call it hilly rather than level?Clin. Certainly.
704d. ΑΘ. τραχυτέραν αὐτὴν ἢ πεδιεινοτέραν ἂν λέγοις.ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
705. Ath. Then it would not be incurably unfit for the acquisition of virtue. For if the State was to be on the sea-coast, and to have fine harbors, and to be deficient in many products, instead of productive of everything,—in that case it would need a mighty savior and divine lawgivers, if, with such a character, it was to avoid having a variety of luxurious and depraved habits. As things are, however, there is consolation in the fact of that eighty stades. Still, it lies unduly near the sea, and the more so because, as you say, its harbors are good; that, however, we must make the best of.
705. ΑΘ. οὐ τοίνυν ἀνίατός γε ἂν εἴη πρὸς ἀρετῆς κτῆσιν. εἰ μὲν γὰρ ἐπιθαλαττία τε ἔμελλεν εἶναι καὶ εὐλίμενος καὶ μὴ πάμφορος ἀλλʼ ἐπιδεὴς πολλῶν, μεγάλου τινὸς ἔδει σωτῆρός τε αὐτῇ καὶ νομοθετῶν θείων τινῶν, εἰ μὴ πολλά τε ἔμελλεν ἤθη καὶ ποικίλα καὶ φαῦλα ἕξειν τοιαύτη φύσει γενομένη· νῦν δὲ παραμύθιον ἔχει τὸ τῶν ὀγδοήκοντα σταδίων. ἐγγύτερον μέντοι τοῦ δέοντος κεῖται τῆς θαλάττης, σχεδὸν ὅσον εὐλιμενωτέραν αὐτὴν φῂς εἶναι, ὅμως δὲ ἀγαπητὸν καὶ τοῦτο.
705a. For the sea is, in very truth,a right briny and bitter neighbor,although there is sweetness in its proximity for the uses of daily life; for by filling the markets of the city with foreign merchandise and retail trading, and breeding in men’s souls knavish and tricky ways, it renders the city faithless and loveless, not to itself only, but to the rest of the world as well. But in this respect our State has compensation in the fact that it is all-productive; and since it is hilly, it cannot be highly productive as well as all-productive; if it were, and supplied many exports, it would be flooded in return with gold and silver money—the one condition of all, perhaps, that is most fatal, in a State, to the acquisition of noble and just habits of life,—as we said, if you remember, in our previous discourse.
705a. πρόσοικος γὰρ θάλαττα χώρᾳ τὸ μὲν παρʼ ἑκάστην ἡμέραν ἡδύ, μάλα γε μὴν ὄντως ἁλμυρὸν καὶ πικρὸν γειτόνημα· ἐμπορίας γὰρ καὶ χρηματισμοῦ διὰ καπηλείας ἐμπιμπλᾶσα αὐτήν, ἤθη παλίμβολα καὶ ἄπιστα ταῖς ψυχαῖς ἐντίκτουσα, αὐτήν τε πρὸς αὑτὴν τὴν πόλιν ἄπιστον καὶ ἄφιλον ποιεῖ καὶ πρὸς τοὺς ἄλλους ἀνθρώπους ὡσαύτως. παραμύθιον δὲ δὴ πρὸς ταῦτα καὶ τὸ πάμφορος εἶναι κέκτηται, τραχεῖα δὲ οὖσα δῆλον ὡς οὐκ ἂν πολύφορός τε εἴη καὶ πάμφορος ἅμα·
705b. Clin. We remember, and we endorse what you said both then and now. Ath. Well, then, how is our district off for timber for ship-building?Clin. There is no fir to speak of, nor pine, and but little cypress; nor could one find much larch or plane, which shipwrights are always obliged to use for the interior fittings of ships.Ath. Those, two, are natural features which would not be bad for the country.Clin. Why so? Ath. That a State should not find it easy to copy its enemies in bad habits is a good thing.Clin. To which of our statements does this observation allude?Ath. My dear Sir, keep a watch on me, with an eye cast back on our opening statement about the Cretan laws. It asserted that those laws aimed at one single object; and whereas you declared that this object was military strength, I made the rejoinder that, while it was right that such enactments should have virtue for their aim, I did not at all approve of that aim being restricted to a part, instead of applying to the whole.
705b. τοῦτο γὰρ ἔχουσα, πολλὴν ἐξαγωγὴν ἂν παρεχομένη, νομίσματος ἀργυροῦ καὶ χρυσοῦ πάλιν ἀντεμπίμπλαιτʼ ἄν, οὗ μεῖζον κακὸν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν πόλει ἀνθʼ ἑνὸς ἓν οὐδὲν ἂν γίγνοιτο εἰς γενναίων καὶ δικαίων ἠθῶν κτῆσιν, ὡς ἔφαμεν, εἰ μεμνήμεθα, ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν λόγοις.ΚΛ. ἀλλὰ μεμνήμεθα, καὶ συγχωροῦμεν τότε λέγειν ἡμᾶς ὀρθῶς καὶ τὰ νῦν. ΑΘ. τί δὲ δή; ναυπηγησίμης ὕλης ὁ τόπος ἡμῖν τῆς χώρας πῶς ἔχει;ΚΛ. οὐκ ἔστιν οὔτε τις ἐλάτη λόγου ἀξία οὔτʼ αὖ πεύκη, κυπάριττός τε οὐ πολλή· πίτυν τʼ αὖ καὶ πλάτανον ὀλίγην ἂν εὕροι τις, οἷς δὴ πρὸς τὰ τῶν ἐντὸς τῶν πλοίων μέρη ἀναγκαῖον τοῖς ναυπηγοῖς χρῆσθαι ἑκάστοτε.ΑΘ. καὶ ταῦτα οὐκ ἂν κακῶς ἔχοι τῇ χώρᾳ τῆς φύσεως.ΚΛ. τί δή;ΑΘ. μιμήσεις πονηρὰς μιμεῖσθαι τοὺς πολεμίους μὴ ῥᾳδίως δύνασθαί τινα πόλιν ἀγαθόν. ΚΛ. εἰς δὴ τί τῶν εἰρημένων βλέψας εἶπες ὃ λέγεις;ΑΘ. ὦ δαιμόνιε, φύλαττέ με εἰς τὸ κατʼ ἀρχὰς εἰρημένον ἀποβλέπων, τὸ περὶ τῶν Κρητικῶν νόμων ὡς πρὸς ἕν τι βλέποιεν, καὶ δὴ καὶ τοῦτʼ ἐλεγέτην αὐτὸ εἶναι σφὼ τὸ πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον, ἐγὼ δὲ ὑπολαβὼν εἶπον ὡς ὅτι μὲν εἰς ἀρετήν ποι βλέποι τὰ τοιαῦτα νόμιμα κείμενα, καλῶς ἔχοι, τὸ δὲ ὅτι πρὸς μέρος ἀλλʼ οὐ πρὸς πᾶσαν σχεδόν, οὐ πάνυ συνεχώρουν·
705e. So do you now, in turn, keep a watch on my present lawmaking, as you follow it, in case I should enact any law either not tending to virtue at all, or tending only to a part of it.
705e. νῦν οὖν ὑμεῖς μοι τῆς παρούσης νομοθεσίας ἀντιφυλάξατε ἑπόμενοι, ἐὰν ἄρα τι μὴ πρὸς ἀρετὴν τεῖνον ἢ πρὸς ἀρετῆς μόριον νομοθετῶ.
706. Ath. For I lay it down as an axiom that no law is rightly enacted which does not aim always, like an archer, at that object, and that alone, which is constantly accompanied by something ever-beautiful,—passing over every other object, be it wealth or anything else of the kind that is devoid of beauty.
706. ΑΘ. τοῦτον γὰρ δὴ τίθεσθαι τὸν νόμον ὀρθῶς ὑποτίθεμαι μόνον, ὃς ἂν δίκην τοξότου ἑκάστοτε στοχάζηται τούτου ὅτῳ ἂν συνεχῶς τούτων ἀεὶ καλόν τι συνέπηται μόνῳ, τὰ δὲ ἄλλα σύμπαντα παραλείπῃ, ἐάντε τις πλοῦτος ἐάντε ἄρα τι τῶν ἄλλων τῶν τοιούτων ὂν τυγχάνῃ ἄνευ τῶν προειρημένων.
706a. To illustrate how the evil imitation of enemies, which I spoke of, comes about, when people dwell by the sea and are vexed by enemies, I will give you an example (though with no wish, of course, to recall to you painful memories). When Minos, once upon a time, reduced the people of Attica to a grievous payment of tribute, he was very powerful by sea, whereas they possessed no warships at that time such as they have now, nor was their country so rich in timber that they could easily supply themselves with a naval force.
706a. τὴν δὲ δὴ μίμησιν ἔλεγον τὴν τῶν πολεμίων τὴν κακὴν τοιάνδε γίγνεσθαι, ὅταν οἰκῇ μέν τις πρὸς θαλάττῃ, λυπῆται δʼ ὑπὸ πολεμίων, οἷον—φράσω γὰρ οὔτι μνησικακεῖν βουλόμενος ὑμῖν—Μίνως γὰρ δή ποτε τοὺς οἰκοῦντας τὴν Ἀττικὴν παρεστήσατο εἰς χαλεπήν τινα φορὰν δασμοῦ, δύναμιν πολλὴν κατὰ θάλατταν κεκτημένος, οἱ δʼ οὔτε πω πλοῖα ἐκέκτηντο, καθάπερ νῦν, πολεμικά, οὔτʼ αὖ τὴν χώραν πλήρη ναυπηγησίμων ξύλων ὥστʼ εὐμαρῶς ναυτικὴν παρασχέσθαι δύναμιν·
706b. Hence they were unable quickly to copy the naval methods of their enemies and drive them off by becoming sailors themselves. And indeed it would have profited them to lose seventy times seven children rather than to become marines instead of staunch foot-soldiers; for marines are habituated to jumping ashore frequently and running back at full speed to their ships, and they think no shame of not dying boldly at their posts when the enemy attack; and excuses are readily made for them, as a matter of course, when they fling away their arms and betake themselves to what they describe as “no dishonorable flight.”
706b. οὔκουν οἷοί τʼ ἐγένοντο διὰ μιμήσεως ναυτικῆς αὐτοὶ ναῦται γενόμενοι εὐθὺς τότε τοὺς πολεμίους ἀμύνασθαι. ἔτι γὰρ ἂν πλεονάκις ἑπτὰ ἀπολέσαι παῖδας αὐτοῖς συνήνεγκεν, πρὶν ἀντὶ πεζῶν ὁπλιτῶν μονίμων ναυτικοὺς γενομένους ἐθισθῆναι, πυκνὰ ἀποπηδῶντας, δρομικῶς εἰς τὰς ναῦς ταχὺ πάλιν ἀποχωρεῖν, καὶ δοκεῖν μηδὲν αἰσχρὸν ποιεῖν μὴ τολμῶντας ἀποθνῄσκειν μένοντας ἐπιφερομένων πολεμίων, ἀλλʼ εἰκυίας αὐτοῖς γίγνεσθαι προφάσεις καὶ σφόδρα ἑτοίμας ὅπλα τε ἀπολλῦσιν καὶ φεύγουσι δή τινας οὐκ αἰσχράς, ὥς φασιν, φυγάς.
706c. These “exploits” are the usual result of employing naval soldiery, and they merit, not “infinite praise,” but precisely the opposite;
706c. ταῦτα γὰρ ἐκ ναυτικῆς ὁπλιτείας ῥήματα φιλεῖ συμβαίνειν, οὐκ ἄξια ἐπαίνων πολλάκις μυρίων, ἀλλὰ τοὐναντίον·
706d. for one ought never to habituate men to base habits, and least of all the noblest section of the citizens. That such an institution is not a noble one might have been learnt even from Homer. For he makes Odysseus abuse Agamemnon for ordering the Achaeans to haul down their ships to the sea, when they were being pressed in fight by the Trojans; and in his wrath he speaks thus:— Dost bid our people hale their fair-benched shipsSeaward, when war and shouting close us round?
706d. ἔθη γὰρ πονηρὰ οὐδέποτε ἐθίζειν δεῖ, καὶ ταῦτα τὸ τῶν πολιτῶν βέλτιστον μέρος. ἦν δέ που τοῦτό γε καὶ παρʼ Ὁμήρου λαβεῖν, ὅτι τὸ ἐπιτήδευμα ἦν τὸ τοιοῦτον οὐ καλόν. Ὀδυσσεὺς γὰρ αὐτῷ λοιδορεῖ τὸν Ἀγαμέμνονα, τῶν Ἀχαιῶν τότε ὑπὸ τῶν Τρώων κατεχομένων τῇ μάχῃ, κελεύοντα τὰς ναῦς εἰς τὴν θάλατταν καθέλκειν, ὁ δὲ χαλεπαίνει τε αὐτῷ καὶ λέγει— ὃς κέλεαι πολέμοιο συνεσταότος καὶ ἀυτῆςνῆας ἐυσέλμους ἅλαδʼ ἕλκειν, ὄφρʼ ἔτι μᾶλλονΤρωσὶ μὲν εὐκτὰ γένηται ἐελδομένοισί περ ἔμπης,ἡμῖν δʼ αἰπὺς ὄλεθρος ἐπιρρέπῃ·
706e. So shall the Trojans see their prayers fulfilled,And so on us shall sheer destruction fall!For, when the ships are seaward drawn, no moreWill our Achaeans hold the battle up,But, backward glancing, they will quit the fray:
706e. οὐ γὰρ Ἀχαιοίσχήσουσιν πολέμου νηῶν ἅλαδʼ ἑλκομενάων,ἀλλʼ ἀποπαπτανέουσιν, ἐρωήσουσι δὲ χάρμης·
707a. Thus baneful counsel such as thine will prove.
707a. ἔνθα κε σὴ βουλὴ δηλήσεται, οἷʼ ἀγορεύεις.
707. Ath. So Homer, too, was aware of the fact that triremes lined up in the sea alongside of infantry fighting on land are a bad thing: why, even lions, if they had habits such as these, would grow used to running away from does! Moreover, States dependent upon navies for their power give honors, as rewards for their safety, to a section of their forces that is not the finest; for they owe their safety to the arts of the pilot, the captain and the rower— men of all kinds and not too respectable,—so that it would be impossible to assign the honors to each of them rightly.
707. ΑΘ. ταῦτʼ οὖν ἐγίγνωσκε καὶ ἐκεῖνος, ὅτι κακὸν ἐν θαλάττῃ τριήρεις ὁπλίταις παρεστῶσαι μαχομένοις· καὶ λέοντες ἂν ἐλάφους ἐθισθεῖεν φεύγειν τοιούτοις ἔθεσι χρώμενοι. πρὸς δὲ τούτοις αἱ διὰ τὰ ναυτικὰ πόλεων δυνάμεις ἅμα σωτηρίᾳ τιμὰς οὐ τῷ καλλίστῳ τῶν πολεμικῶν ἀποδιδόασιν· διὰ κυβερνητικῆς γὰρ καὶ πεντηκονταρχίας καὶ ἐρετικῆς, καὶ παντοδαπῶν καὶ οὐ πάνυ σπουδαίων ἀνθρώπων γιγνομένης, τὰς τιμὰς ἑκάστοις οὐκ ἂν δύναιτο ὀρθῶς ἀποδιδόναι τις.
707b. Yet, without rectitude in this, how can it still be right with a State?
707b. καίτοι πῶς ἂν ἔτι πολιτεία γίγνοιτο ὀρθὴ τούτου στερομένη;
Clin. It is well-nigh impossible. None the less, Stranger, it was the sea-fight at Salamis, fought by the Greeks against the barbarians, which, as we Cretans at least affirm, saved Greece.
ΚΛ. σχεδὸν ἀδύνατον. ἀλλὰ μήν, ὦ ξένε, τήν γε περὶ Σαλαμῖνα ναυμαχίαν τῶν Ἑλλήνων πρὸς τοὺς βαρβάρους γενομένην ἡμεῖς γε οἱ Κρῆτες τὴν Ἑλλάδα φαμὲν σῶσαι.
Ath. Yes, that is what is said by most of the Greeks and barbarians.
ΑΘ. καὶ γὰρ οἱ πολλοὶ τῶν Ἑλλήνων τε καὶ βαρβάρων λέγουσι ταῦτα.
707c. But we—that is, I myself and our friend Megillus—affirm that it was the land-battle of Marathon which began the salvation of Greece, and that of Plataea which completed it; and we affirm also that, whereas these battles made the Greeks better, the sea-fights made them worse,—if one may use such an expression about battles that helped at that time to save us (for I will let you count Artemisium also as a sea-fight, as well as Salamis). Since, however, our present object is political excellence, it is the natural character of a country and its legal arrangements that we are considering; so that we differ from most people in not regarding mere safety and existence as the most precious thing men can possess, but rather the gaining of all possible goodness and the keeping of it throughout life.
707c. ἡμεῖς δέ, ὦ φίλε, ἐγώ τε καὶ ὅδε, Μέγιλλος, φαμὲν τὴν πεζὴν μάχην τὴν ἐν Μαραθῶνι γενομένην καὶ ἐν Πλαταιαῖς, τὴν μὲν ἄρξαι τῆς σωτηρίας τοῖς Ἕλλησι, τὴν δὲ τέλος ἐπιθεῖναι, καὶ τὰς μὲν βελτίους τοὺς Ἕλληνας ποιῆσαι, τὰς δὲ οὐ βελτίους, ἵνʼ οὕτως λέγωμεν περὶ τῶν τότε συσσωσασῶν ἡμᾶς μαχῶν· πρὸς γὰρ τῇ περὶ Σαλαμῖνα τὴν περὶ τὸ Ἀρτεμίσιόν σοι προσθήσω κατὰ θάλατταν μάχην.
707d. This too, I believe, was stated by us before.
707d. ἀλλὰ γὰρ ἀποβλέποντες νῦν πρὸς πολιτείας ἀρετήν, καὶ χώρας φύσιν σκοπούμεθα καὶ νόμων τάξιν, οὐ τὸ σῴζεσθαί τε καὶ εἶναι μόνον ἀνθρώποις τιμιώτατον ἡγούμενοι, καθάπερ οἱ πολλοί, τὸ δʼ ὡς βελτίστους γίγνεσθαί τε καὶ εἶναι τοσοῦτον χρόνον ὅσον ἂν ὦσιν· εἴρηται δʼ ἡμῖν οἶμαι καὶ τοῦτο ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν.
Ath. Then let us consider only this,—whether we are traversing by the same road which we took then, as being the best for states in the matter of settlements and modes of legislation.
ΑΘ. τοῦτο τοίνυν σκοπώμεθα μόνον, εἰ κατὰ τὴν αὐτὴν ὁδὸν ἐρχόμεθα βελτίστην οὖσαν πόλεσι κατοικίσεων πέρι καὶ νομοθεσιῶν.
Clin. The best by far.
ΚΛ. καὶ πολύ γε.
Ath. In the next place tell me this: who are the people that are to be settled? Will they comprise all that wish to go from any part of Crete, supposing that there has grown up in every city a surplus population too great for the country’s food supply? For you are not; I presume, collecting all who wish to go from Greece;
ΑΘ. λέγε δὴ τοίνυν τὸ τούτοις ἑξῆς· τίς ὁ κατοικιζόμενος ὑμῖν λεὼς ἔσται; πότερον ἐξ ἁπάσης Κρήτης ὁ ἐθέλων, ὡς ὄχλου τινὸς ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν ἑκάσταις γεγενημένου πλείονος ἢ κατὰ τὴν ἐκ τῆς γῆς τροφήν; οὐ γάρ που τὸν βουλόμενόν γε Ἑλλήνων συνάγετε.
708. Ath. although I do, indeed, see in your country settlers from Argos, Aegina, and other parts of Greece.
708. ΑΘ. καίτοι τινὰς ὑμῖν ἔκ τε Ἄργους ὁρῶ καὶ Αἰγίνης καὶ ἄλλοθεν τῶν Ἑλλήνων εἰς τὴν χώραν κατῳκισμένους.
708a. So tell us now from what quarters the present expedition of citizens is likely to be drawn.
708a. τὸ δὲ δὴ παρὸν ἡμῖν λέγε πόθεν ἔσεσθαι φῂς στρατόπεδον τῶν πολιτῶν τὰ νῦν;
Clin. It will probably be from the whole of Crete and of the rest of the Greeks, they seem most ready to admit people from the Peloponnese as fellow-settlers. For it is quite true, as you said just now, that we have some here from Argos, amongst them being the most famous of our clans, the Gortynian, which is a colony from Gortys, in the Peloponnese.
ΚΛ. ἔκ τε Κρήτης συμπάσης ἔοικεν γενήσεσθαι, καὶ τῶν ἄλλων δὲ Ἑλλήνων μάλιστά μοι φαίνονται τοὺς ἀπὸ Πελοποννήσου προσδέξασθαι συνοίκους. καὶ γὰρ ὃ νῦν δὴ λέγεις, ἀληθὲς φράζεις, ὡς ἐξ Ἄργους εἰσίν, καὶ τό γε μάλιστʼ εὐδοκιμοῦν τὰ νῦν ἐνθάδε γένος, τὸ Γορτυνικόν· ἐκ Γόρτυνος γὰρ τυγχάνει ἀπῳκηκὸς ταύτης τῆς Πελοποννησιακῆς.
708b. Ath. It would not be equally easy for States to conduct settlements in other cases as in those when, like a swarm of bees, a single clan goes out from a single country and settles, as a friend coming from friends, being either squeezed out by lack of room or forced by some other such pressing need. At times, too, the violence of civil strife might compel a whole section of a State to emigrate; and on one occasion an entire State went into exile, when it was totally crushed by an overpowering attack.
708b. ΑΘ. οὐ τοίνυν εὔκολος ὁμοίως γίγνοιτʼ ἂν ὁ κατοικισμὸς ταῖς πόλεσιν, ὅταν μὴ τὸν τῶν ἐσμῶν γίγνηται τρόπον, ἓν γένος ἀπὸ μιᾶς ἰὸν χώρας οἰκίζηται, φίλον παρὰ φίλων, στενοχωρίᾳ τινὶ πολιορκηθὲν γῆς ἤ τισιν ἄλλοις τοιούτοις παθήμασιν ἀναγκασθέν. ἔστιν δʼ ὅτε καὶ στάσεσιν βιαζόμενον ἀναγκάζοιτʼ ἂν ἑτέρωσε ἀποξενοῦσθαι πόλεώς τι μόριον· ἤδη δέ ποτε καὶ συνάπασα πόλις τινῶν ἔφυγεν, ἄρδην κρείττονι κρατηθεῖσα πολέμῳ. ταῦτʼ οὖν πάντʼ ἐστὶ τῇ μὲν ῥᾴω κατοικίζεσθαί τε καὶ νομοθετεῖσθαι, τῇ δὲ χαλεπώτερα.
708c. All such cases are in one way easier to manage, as regards settling and legislation, but in another way harder. In the case where the race is one, with the same language and laws, this unity makes for friendliness, since it shares also in sacred rites and all matters of religion; but such a body does not easily tolerate laws or polities which differ from those of its homeland. Again, where such a body has seceded owing to civil strife due to the badness of the laws, but still strives to retain, owing to long habit, the very customs which caused its former ruin, then, because of this, it proves a difficult and intractable subject for the person who has control of its settlement and its laws.
708c. τὸ μὲν γὰρ ἕν τι εἶναι γένος ὁμόφωνον καὶ ὁμόνομον ἔχει τινὰ φιλίαν, κοινωνὸν ἱερῶν ὂν καὶ τῶν τοιούτων πάντων, νόμους δʼ ἑτέρους καὶ πολιτείας ἄλλας τῶν οἴκοθεν οὐκ εὐπετῶς ἀνέχεται, τὸ δʼ ἐνίοτε πονηρίᾳ νόμων ἐστασιακὸς καὶ διὰ συνήθειαν ζητοῦν ἔτι χρῆσθαι τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἤθεσιν διʼ ἃ καὶ πρότερον ἐφθάρη, χαλεπὸν τῷ κατοικίζοντι καὶ νομοθετοῦντι καὶ δυσπειθὲς γίγνεται·
708d. On the other hand, the clan that is formed by fusion of various elements would perhaps be more ready to submit to new laws, but to cause it to share in one spirit and pant (as they say) in unison like a team of horses would be a lengthy task and most difficult. But in truth legislation and the settlement of States are tasks that require men perfect above all other men in goodness.
708d. τὸ δʼ αὖ παντοδαπὸν ἐς ταὐτὸν συνερρυηκὸς γένος ὑπακοῦσαι μέν τινων νόμων καινῶν τάχα ἂν ἐθελήσειε μᾶλλον, τὸ δὲ συμπνεῦσαι, καὶ καθάπερ ἵππων ζεῦγος καθʼ ἕνα εἰς ταὐτόν, τὸ λεγόμενον, συμφυσῆσαι, χρόνου πολλοῦ καὶ παγχάλεπον. ἀλλʼ ὄντως ἐστὶν νομοθεσία καὶ πόλεων οἰκισμοὶ πάντων τελεώτατον πρὸς ἀρετὴν ἀνδρῶν.
Clin. Very probably; but tell us still more clearly the purport of these observations.
ΚΛ. εἰκός· ὅπῃ δʼ αὖ βλέπων τοῦτʼ εἴρηκας, φράζʼ ἔτι σαφέστερον.
708e. Ath. My good Sir, in returning to the subject of lawgivers in our investigation, I may probably have to cast a slur on them; but if what I say is to the point, then there will be no harm in it. Yet why should I vex myself? For practically all human affairs seem to be in this same plight.Clin. What is it you refer to? Ath. I was on the point of saying that no man ever makes laws, but chances and accidents of all kinds, occurring in all sorts of ways, make all our laws for us.
708e. ΑΘ. ὠγαθέ, ἔοικα περὶ νομοθετῶν ἐπανιὼν καὶ σκοπῶν ἅμα ἐρεῖν τι καὶ φαῦλον· ἀλλʼ ἐὰν πρὸς καιρόν τινα λέγωμεν, πρᾶγμʼ οὐδὲν γίγνοιτʼ ἂν ἔτι. καίτοι τί ποτε δυσχεραίνω; σχεδὸν γάρ τοι πάντα οὕτως ἔοικʼ ἔχειν τὰ ἀνθρώπινα.ΚΛ. τοῦ δὴ πέρι λέγεις;
709a. For either it is a war that violently upsets polities and changes laws, or it is the distress due to grievous poverty. Diseases, too, often force on revolutions, owing to the inroads of pestilences and recurring bad seasons prolonged over many years. Foreseeing all this, one might deem it proper to say—as I said just now—that no mortal man frames any law, but human affairs are nearly all matters of pure chance.
709a. ΑΘ. ἔμελλον λέγειν ὡς οὐδείς ποτε ἀνθρώπων οὐδὲν νομοθετεῖ, τύχαι δὲ καὶ συμφοραὶ παντοῖαι πίπτουσαι παντοίως νομοθετοῦσι τὰ πάντα ἡμῖν. ἢ γὰρ πόλεμός τις βιασάμενος ἀνέτρεψε πολιτείας καὶ μετέβαλε νόμους, ἢ πενίας χαλεπῆς ἀπορία· πολλὰ δὲ καὶ νόσοι ἀναγκάζουσι καινοτομεῖν, λοιμῶν τε ἐμπιπτόντων, καὶ χρόνον ἐπὶ πολὺν ἐνιαυτῶν πολλῶν πολλάκις ἀκαιρίαι. ταῦτα δὴ πάντα προϊδών τις ᾄξειεν ἂν εἰπεῖν ὅπερ ἐγὼ νυνδή, τὸ θνητὸν μὲν μηδένα νομοθετεῖν μηδέν, τύχας δʼ εἶναι σχεδὸν ἅπαντα τὰ ἀνθρώπινα πράγματα·
709b. But the fact is that, although one may appear to be quite right in saying this about sea-faring and the arts of the pilot, the physician, and the general, yet there really is something else that we may say with equal truth about these same things.
709b. τὸ δʼ ἔστιν περί τε ναυτιλίαν καὶ κυβερνητικὴν καὶ ἰατρικὴν καὶ στρατηγικὴν πάντα ταῦτʼ εἰπόντα δοκεῖν εὖ λέγειν, ἀλλὰ γὰρ ὁμοίως αὖ καὶ τόδε ἔστιν λέγοντα εὖ λέγειν ἐν τοῖς αὐτοῖς τούτοις.
Clin. What is that?
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον;
Ath. That God controls all that is, and that Chance and Occasion co-operate with God in the control of all human affairs. It is, however, less harsh to admit that these two must be accompanied by a third factor, which is Art. For that the pilots’ art should cooperate with Occasion—verily I, for one, should esteem that a great advantage.
ΑΘ. ὡς θεὸς μὲν πάντα, καὶ μετὰ θεοῦ τύχη καὶ καιρός, τἀνθρώπινα διακυβερνῶσι σύμπαντα. ἡμερώτερον μὴν τρίτον συγχωρῆσαι τούτοις δεῖν ἕπεσθαι τέχνην·
709c. Is it not so?Clin. It is.Ath. Then we must grant that this is equally true in the other cases also, by parity of reasoning, including the case of legislation. When all the other conditions are present which a country needs to possess in the way of fortune if it is ever to be happily settled, then every such State needs to meet with a lawgiver who holds fast to truth.
709c. καιρῷ γὰρ χειμῶνος συλλαβέσθαι κυβερνητικὴν ἢ μή, μέγα πλεονέκτημα ἔγωγʼ ἂν θείην. ἢ πῶς;ΚΛ. οὕτως.ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις ὡσαύτως κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν ἂν ἔχοι λόγον, καὶ δὴ καὶ νομοθεσίᾳ ταὐτὸν τοῦτο δοτέον· τῶν ἄλλων συμπιπτόντων, ὅσα δεῖ χώρᾳ συντυχεῖν, εἰ μέλλοι ποτὲ εὐδαιμόνως οἰκήσειν, τὸν νομοθέτην ἀληθείας ἐχόμενον τῇ τοιαύτῃ παραπεσεῖν ἑκάστοτε πόλει δεῖν.ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
709d. Clin. Very true.Ath. Would not, then, the man who possessed art in regard to each of the crafts mentioned be able to pray aright for that condition which, if it were given by Chance, would need only the supplement of his own art?Clin. Certainly.Ath. And if all the other craftsmen mentioned just now were bidden to state the object of their prayers, they could do so, could they not?Clin. Of course.Ath. And the lawgiver, I suppose, could do likewise?Clin. I suppose so.Ath. “Come now, O lawgiver,” let us say to him, “what are we to give you, and what condition of State, to enable you, when you receive it, thence-forward to manage the State by yourself satisfactorily?”
709d. ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ὅ γε πρὸς ἕκαστόν τι τῶν εἰρημένων ἔχων τὴν τέχνην κἂν εὔξασθαί που δύναιτο ὀρθῶς, τί παρὸν αὐτῷ διὰ τύχης, τῆς τέχνης ἂν μόνον ἐπιδέοι;ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.ΑΘ. οἵ τε ἄλλοι γε δὴ πάντες οἱ νυνδὴ ῥηθέντες, κελευόμενοι τὴν αὑτῶν εὐχὴν εἰπεῖν, εἴποιεν ἄν. ἦ γάρ;ΚΛ. τί μήν;ΑΘ. ταὐτὸν δὴ καὶ νομοθέτης οἶμαι δράσειεν.ΚΛ. ἔγωγʼ οἶμαι.ΑΘ. φέρε δή, νομοθέτα, πρὸς αὐτὸν φῶμεν, τί σοι καὶ πῶς πόλιν ἔχουσαν δῶμεν, ὃ λαβὼν ἕξεις ὥστʼ ἐκ τῶν λοιπῶν αὐτὸς τὴν πόλιν ἱκανῶς διοικῆσαι;
709e. Clin. What is the next thing that can rightly be said?
709e. ΚΛ. τί μετὰ τοῦτʼ εἰπεῖν ὀρθῶς ἔστιν ἄρα;
Ath. You mean, do you not, on the side of the lawgiver?
ΑΘ. τοῦ νομοθέτου φράζομεν τοῦτο, ἦ γάρ;
710. Ath. This is what he will say: “Give me the State under a monarchy; and let the monarch be young, and possessed by nature of a good memory, quick intelligence, courage and nobility of manner; and let that quality, which we formerly mentioned as the necessary accompaniment of all the parts of virtue, attend now also on our monarch’s soul, if the rest of his qualities are to be of any value.”
710. ΑΘ. τόδε· τυραννουμένην μοι δότε τὴν πόλιν, φήσει· τύραννος δʼ ἔστω νέος καὶ μνήμων καὶ εὐμαθὴς καὶ ἀνδρεῖος καὶ μεγαλοπρεπὴς φύσει· ὃ δὲ καὶ ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν ἐλέγομεν δεῖν ἕπεσθαι σύμπασιν τοῖς τῆς ἀρετῆς μέρεσι, καὶ νῦν τῇ τυραννουμένῃ ψυχῇ τοῦτο συνεπέσθω, ἐὰν μέλλῃ τῶν ἄλλων ὑπαρχόντων ὄφελος εἶναί τι.
710a. Clin. Temperance, as I think, Megillus, is what the Stranger indicates as the necessary accompaniment. Is it not?
710a. ΚΛ. σωφροσύνην μοι δοκεῖ φράζειν, ὦ Μέγιλλε, δεῖν εἶναι τὴν συνεπομένην ὁ ξένος. ἦ γάρ;
Ath. Yes, Clinias; temperance, that is, of the ordinary kind not the kind men mean when they use academic language and identify temperance with wisdom, but that kind which by natural instinct springs up at birth in children and animals, so that some are not incontinent, others continent, in respect of pleasures; and of this we said that, when isolated from the numerous so-called “goods,” it was of no account.
ΑΘ. τὴν δημώδη γε, ὦ Κλεινία, καὶ οὐχ ἥν τις σεμνύνων ἂν λέγοι, φρόνησιν προσαναγκάζων εἶναι τὸ σωφρονεῖν, ἀλλʼ ὅπερ εὐθὺς παισὶν καὶ θηρίοις, τοῖς μὲν ἀκρατῶς ἔχειν πρὸς τὰς ἡδονάς, σύμφυτον ἐπανθεῖ, τοῖς δὲ ἐγκρατῶς· ὃ καὶ μονούμενον ἔφαμεν τῶν πολλῶν ἀγαθῶν λεγομένων οὐκ ἄξιον εἶναι λόγου.
710b. You understand, of course, what I mean.
710b. ἔχετε γὰρ ὃ λέγω που.
Clin. Certainly.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Ath. Let our monarch, then, possess this natural quality in addition to the other qualities mentioned, if the State is to acquire in the quickest and best way possible the constitution it needs for the happiest kind of life. For there does not exist, nor could there ever arise, a quicker and better form of constitution than this.
ΑΘ. ταύτην τοίνυν ἡμῖν ὁ τύραννος τὴν φύσιν ἐχέτω πρὸς ἐκείναις ταῖς φύσεσιν, εἰ μέλλει πόλις ὡς δυνατόν ἐστι τάχιστα καὶ ἄριστα σχήσειν πολιτείαν ἣν λαβοῦσα εὐδαιμονέστατα διάξει. θάττων γὰρ ταύτης καὶ ἀμείνων πολιτείας διάθεσις οὔτʼ ἔστιν οὔτʼ ἄν ποτε γένοιτο.
710c. Clin. How and by what argument, Stranger, could one convince oneself that to say this is to speak the truth?
710c. ΚΛ. πῶς δὴ καὶ τίνι λόγῳ τοῦτο, ὦ ξένε, λέγων ἄν τις ὀρθῶς λέγειν αὑτὸν πείθοι;
Ath. It is quite easy to perceive at least this, Clinias, that the facts stand by nature’s ordinance in the way described.
ΑΘ. ῥᾴδιόν που τοῦτό γε νοεῖν ἐστʼ, ὦ Κλεινία, κατὰ φύσιν ὡς ἔστι τοῦθʼ οὕτω.
Clin. In what way do you mean? On condition, do you say, that there should be a monarch who was young, temperate, quick at learning, with a good memory, brave and of a noble manner?
ΚΛ. πῶς λέγεις; εἰ τύραννος γένοιτο, φῄς, νέος, σώφρων, εὐμαθής, μνήμων, ἀνδρεῖος, μεγαλοπρεπής;
Ath. Add also “fortunate,”—not in other respects, but only in this, that in his time there should arise a praiseworthy lawgiver, and that, by a piece of good fortune, the two of them should meet; for if this were so, then God would have done nearly everything that he does when he desires that a State should be eminently prosperous.
ΑΘ. εὐτυχής, πρόσθες, μὴ κατʼ ἄλλο, ἀλλὰ τὸ γενέσθαι τε ἐπʼ αὐτοῦ νομοθέτην ἄξιον ἐπαίνου, καί τινα τύχην εἰς ταὐτὸν ἀγαγεῖν αὐτῷ·
710d. The second best condition is that there should arise two such rulers; then comes the third best, with three rulers; and so on, the difficulty increasing in proportion as the number becomes greater, and vice versa.
710d. γενομένου γὰρ τούτου, πάντα σχεδὸν ἀπείργασται τῷ θεῷ, ἅπερ ὅταν βουληθῇ διαφερόντως εὖ πρᾶξαί τινα πόλιν. δεύτερον δέ, ἐάν ποτέ τινες δύο ἄρχοντες γίγνωνται τοιοῦτοι, τρίτον δʼ αὖ καὶ κατὰ λόγον ὡσαύτως χαλεπώτερον ὅσῳ πλείους, ὅσῳ δʼ ἐναντίον, ἐναντίως.
Clin. You mean, apparently, that the best State would arise from a monarchy, when it has a first-rate lawgiver and a virtuous monarch, and these are the conditions under which the change into such a State could be effected most easily and quickly; and, next to this, from an oligarchy— or what is it you mean?
ΚΛ. ἐκ τυραννίδος ἀρίστην φῂς γενέσθαι πόλιν ἄν, ὡς φαίνῃ, μετὰ νομοθέτου γε ἄκρου καὶ τυράννου κοσμίου, καὶ ῥᾷστά τε καὶ τάχιστʼ ἂν μεταβαλεῖν εἰς τοῦτο ἐκ τοῦ τοιούτου, δεύτερον δὲ ἐξ ὀλιγαρχίας—ἢ πῶς λέγεις;—καὶ τὸ τρίτον ἐκ δημοκρατίας.
710e. Ath. Not at all: the easiest step is from a monarchy, the next easiest from a monarchic constitution, the third from some form of democracy. An oligarchy, which comes fourth in order, would admit of the growth of the best State only with the greatest difficulty, since it has the largest number of rulers.
710e. ΑΘ. οὐδαμῶς, ἀλλʼ ἐκ τυραννίδος μὲν πρῶτον, δεύτερον δὲ ἐκ βασιλικῆς πολιτείας, τρίτον δὲ ἔκ τινος δημοκρατίας. τὸ δὲ τέταρτον, ὀλιγαρχία, τὴν τοῦ τοιούτου γένεσιν χαλεπώτατα δύναιτʼ ἂν προσδέξασθαι· πλεῖστοι γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ δυνάσται γίγνονται.
711. Ath. What I say is that the change takes place when nature supplies a true lawgiver, and when it happens that his policy is shared by the most powerful persons in the State;
711. ΑΘ. λέγομεν δὴ ταῦτα γίγνεσθαι τότε, ὅταν ἀληθὴς μὲν νομοθέτης γένηται φύσει, κοινὴ δὲ αὐτῷ τις συμβῇ ῥώμη πρὸς τοὺς ἐν τῇ πόλει μέγιστον δυναμένους·
711a. and wherever the State authorities are at once strongest and fewest in number, then and there the changes are usually carried out with speed and facility.
711a. οὗ δʼ ἂν τοῦτο ἀριθμῷ μὲν βραχύτατον, ἰσχυρότατον δέ, καθάπερ ἐν τυραννίδι, γένηται, ταύτῃ καὶ τότε τάχος καὶ ῥᾳστώνη τῆς μεταβολῆς γίγνεσθαι φιλεῖ.
Clin. How so? We do not understand.
ΚΛ. πῶς; οὐ γὰρ μανθάνομεν.
Ath. Yet surely it has been stated not once, I imagine, but many times over. But you, very likely, have never so much as set eyes on a monarchical State.
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν εἴρηταί γʼ ἡμῖν οὐχ ἅπαξ ἀλλʼ οἶμαι πολλάκις· ὑμεῖς δὲ τάχα οὐδὲ τεθέασθε τυραννουμένην πόλιν.
Clin. No, nor have I any craving for such a sight.
ΚΛ. οὐδέ γε ἐπιθυμητὴς ἔγωγʼ εἰμὶ τοῦ θεάματος.
711b. Ath. You would, however, see in it an illustration of what we spoke of just now.
711b. ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν τοῦτό γʼ ἂν ἴδοις ἐν αὐτῇ τὸ νυνδὴ λεγόμενον.
Clin. What was that?
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον;
Ath. The fact that a monarch, when he decides to change the moral habits of a State, needs no great efforts nor a vast length of time, but what he does need is to lead the way himself first along the desired path, whether it be to urge the citizens towards virtue’s practices or the contrary; by his personal example he should first trace out the right lines, giving praise and honor to these things, blame to those, and degrading the disobedient according to their several deeds.
ΑΘ. οὐδὲν δεῖ πόνων οὐδέ τινος παμπόλλου χρόνου τῷ τυράννῳ μεταβαλεῖν βουληθέντι πόλεως ἤθη, πορεύεσθαι δὲ αὐτὸν δεῖ πρῶτον ταύτῃ, ὅπῃπερ ἂν ἐθελήσῃ, ἐάντε πρὸς ἀρετῆς ἐπιτηδεύματα, προτρέπεσθαι τοὺς πολίτας, ἐάντε ἐπὶ τοὐναντίον, αὐτὸν πρῶτον πάντα ὑπογράφοντα τῷ πράττειν, τὰ μὲν ἐπαινοῦντα καὶ τιμῶντα, τὰ δʼ αὖ πρὸς ψόγον ἄγοντα, καὶ τὸν μὴ πειθόμενον ἀτιμάζοντα καθʼ ἑκάστας τῶν πράξεων.
711c. Clin. Yes, we may perhaps suppose that the rest of the citizens will quickly follow the ruler who adopts such a combination of persuasion and force.
711c. ΚΛ. καὶ πῶς οἰόμεθα ταχὺ συνακολουθήσειν τοὺς ἄλλους πολίτας τῷ τὴν τοιαύτην πειθὼ καὶ ἅμα βίαν εἰληφότι;
Ath. Let none, my friends, persuade us that a State could ever change its laws more quickly or more easily by any other way than by the personal guidance of the rulers: no such thing could ever occur, either now or hereafter. Indeed, that is not the result which we find it difficult or impossible to bring about; what is difficult to bring about is rather that result which has taken place but rarely throughout long ages, and which, whenever it does take place in a State, produces in that State countless blessings of every kind.
ΑΘ. μηδεὶς ἡμᾶς πειθέτω, ὦ φίλοι, ἄλλῃ θᾶττον καὶ ῥᾷον μεταβάλλειν ἄν ποτε πόλιν τοὺς νόμους ἢ τῇ τῶν δυναστευόντων ἡγεμονίᾳ, μηδὲ νῦν γε ἄλλῃ γίγνεσθαι μηδʼ αὖθίς ποτε γενήσεσθαι. καὶ γὰρ οὖν ἡμῖν οὐ τοῦτʼ ἐστὶν ἀδύνατον οὐδὲ χαλεπῶς ἂν γενόμενον·
711d. Clin. What result do you mean?Ath. Whenever a heaven-sent desire for temperate and just institutions arises in those who hold high positions,—whether as monarchs, or because of conspicuous eminence of wealth or birth, or, haply, as displaying the character of Nestor, of whom it is said that, while he surpassed all men in the force of his eloquence, still more did he surpass them in temperance.
711d. ἀλλὰ τόδʼ ἐστὶ τὸ χαλεπὸν γενέσθαι, καὶ ὀλίγον δὴ τὸ γεγονὸς ἐν τῷ πολλῷ χρόνῳ, ὅταν δὲ συμβῇ, μυρία καὶ πάντʼ ἐν πόλει ἀγαθὰ ἀπεργάζεται, ἐν ᾗ ποτʼ ἂν ἐγγένηται.ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον δὴ λέγεις;ΑΘ. ὅταν ἔρως θεῖος τῶν σωφρόνων τε καὶ δικαίων ἐπιτηδευμάτων ἐγγένηται μεγάλαις τισὶν δυναστείαις, ἢ κατὰ μοναρχίαν δυναστευούσαις ἢ κατὰ πλούτων ὑπεροχὰς διαφερούσαις ἢ γενῶν, ἢ τὴν Νέστορος ἐάν ποτέ τις ἐπανενέγκῃ φύσιν, ὃν τῇ τοῦ λέγειν ῥώμῃ φασὶ πάντων διενεγκόντα ἀνθρώπων πλέον ἔτι τῷ σωφρονεῖν διαφέρειν.
711e. That was, as they say, in the Trojan age, certainly not in our time; still, if any such man existed, or shall exist, or exists among us now, blessed is the life he leads, and blessed are they who join in listening to the words of temperance that proceed out of his mouth.
711e. τοῦτʼ οὖν ἐπὶ μὲν Τροίας, ὥς φασι, γέγονεν, ἐφʼ ἡμῶν δὲ οὐδαμῶς, εἰ δʼ οὖν γέγονεν ἢ καὶ γενήσεται τοιοῦτος ἢ νῦν ἡμῶν ἔστιν τις, μακαρίως μὲν αὐτὸς ζῇ, μακάριοι δὲ οἱ συνήκοοι τῶν ἐκ τοῦ σωφρονοῦντος στόματος ἰόντων λόγων.
712. Ath. So likewise of power in general, the same rule holds good: whenever the greatest power coincides in man with wisdom and temperance, then the germ of the best polity is planted; but in no other way will it ever come about. Regard this as a myth oracularly uttered, and let us take it as proved that the rise of a well-governed State is in one way difficult, but in another way—given, that is, the condition we mention—it is easier by far and quicker than anything else.
712. ΑΘ. ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ συμπάσης δυνάμεως ὁ αὐτὸς πέρι λόγος, ὡς ὅταν εἰς ταὐτὸν τῷ φρονεῖν τε καὶ σωφρονεῖν ἡ μεγίστη δύναμις ἐν ἀνθρώπῳ συμπέσῃ, τότε πολιτείας τῆς ἀρίστης καὶ νόμων τῶν τοιούτων φύεται γένεσις, ἄλλως δὲ οὐ μή ποτε γένηται. ταῦτα μὲν οὖν καθαπερεὶ μῦθός τις λεχθεὶς κεχρησμῳδήσθω, καὶ ἐπιδεδείχθω τῇ μὲν χαλεπὸν ὂν τὸ πόλιν εὔνομον γίγνεσθαι, τῇ δʼ, εἴπερ γένοιτο ὃ λέγομεν, πάντων τάχιστόν τε καὶ ῥᾷστον μακρῷ.
712b. Ath. Let us apply the oracle to your State, and so try, like greybeard boys, to model its laws by our discourse.
712b. ΑΘ. πειρώμεθα προσαρμόττοντες τῇ πόλει σοι, καθάπερ παῖδες πρεσβῦται, πλάττειν τῷ λόγῳ τοὺς νόμους.
Clin. Yes, let us proceed, and delay no longer.
ΚΛ. ἴωμεν δὴ καὶ μὴ μέλλωμεν ἔτι.
Ath. Let us invoke the presence of the God at the establishment of the State; and may he hearken, and hearkening may he come, propitious and kindly to us-ward, to help us in the fashioning of the State and its laws.
ΑΘ. θεὸν δὴ πρὸς τὴν τῆς πόλεως κατασκευὴν ἐπικαλώμεθα· ὁ δὲ ἀκούσειέν τε, καὶ ἀκούσας ἵλεως εὐμενής τε ἡμῖν ἔλθοι συνδιακοσμήσων τήν τε πόλιν καὶ τοὺς νόμους.
Clin. Yes, may he come!
ΚΛ. ἔλθοι γὰρ οὖν.
Ath. Well, what form of polity is it that we intend to impose upon the State?
ΑΘ. ἀλλὰ τίνα δή ποτε πολιτείαν ἔχομεν ἐν νῷ τῇ πόλει προστάττειν;
712c. Clin. What, in particular, do you refer to? Explain still more clearly. I mean, is it a democracy, an oligarchy, an aristocracy, or a monarchy? For certainly you cannot mean a tyranny: that we can never suppose.
712c. ΚΛ. οἷον δὴ τί λέγεις βουληθείς; φράζʼ ἔτι σαφέστερον. οἷον δημοκρατίαν τινὰ ἢ ὀλιγαρχίαν ἢ ἀριστοκρατίαν ἢ βασιλικήν; οὐ γὰρ δὴ τυραννίδα γέ που λέγοις ἄν, ὥς γʼ ἡμεῖς ἂν οἰηθεῖμεν.
Ath. Come now, which of you two would like to answer me first and tell me to which of these kinds his own polity at home belongs?
ΑΘ. φέρε δὴ τοίνυν, πότερος ὑμῶν ἀποκρίνασθαι πρότερος ἂν ἐθέλοι, τὴν οἴκοι πολιτείαν εἰπὼν τίς τούτων ἐστίν;
Meg. Is it not proper that I, as the elder, should answer first?
ΜΕ. μῶν οὖν τὸν πρεσβύτερον ἐμὲ δικαιότερον εἰπεῖν πρότερον;
712d. Clin. No doubt.
712d. ΚΛ. ἴσως.
Meg. In truth, Stranger, when I reflect on the Lacedaemonian polity, I am at a loss to tell you by what name one should describe it. It seems to me to resemble a tyranny, since the board of ephors it contains is a marvellously tyrannical feature; yet sometimes it strikes me as, of all States, the nearest to a democracy. Still, it would be totally absurd to deny that it is an aristocracy;
ΜΕ. καὶ μὴν συννοῶν γε, ὦ ξένε, τὴν ἐν Λακεδαίμονι πολιτείαν οὐκ ἔχω σοι φράζειν οὕτως ἥντινα προσαγορεύειν αὐτὴν δεῖ. καὶ γὰρ τυραννίδι δοκεῖ μοι προσεοικέναι—τὸ γὰρ τῶν ἐφόρων θαυμαστὸν ὡς τυραννικὸν ἐν αὐτῇ γέγονε —καί τις ἐνίοτέ μοι φαίνεται πασῶν τῶν πόλεων δημοκρατουμένη μάλιστʼ ἐοικέναι. τὸ δʼ αὖ μὴ φάναι ἀριστοκρατίαν αὐτὴν εἶναι παντάπασιν ἄτοπον·
712e. while it includes, moreover, a life monarchy, and that the most ancient of monarchies, as is affirmed, not only by ourselves, but by all the world. But now that I am questioned thus suddenly, I am really, as I said, at a loss to say definitely to which of these polities it belongs.
712e. καὶ μὲν δὴ βασιλεία γε διὰ βίου τʼ ἐστὶν ἐν αὐτῇ καὶ ἀρχαιοτάτη πασῶν καὶ πρὸς πάντων ἀνθρώπων καὶ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν λεγομένη. ἐγὼ δὲ οὕτω νῦν ἐξαίφνης ἂν ἐρωτηθείς, ὄντως, ὅπερ εἶπον, οὐκ ἔχω διορισάμενος εἰπεῖν τίς τούτων ἐστὶν τῶν πολιτειῶν.
Clin. And I, Megillus, find myself equally perplexed; for I find it very difficult to affirm that our Cnosian polity is any one of these.
ΚΛ. ταὐτόν σοι πάθος, ὦ Μέγιλλε, καταφαίνομαι πεπονθέναι· πάνυ γὰρ ἀπορῶ τὴν ἐν Κνωσῷ πολιτείαν τούτων τινὰ διισχυριζόμενος εἰπεῖν.
713. Ath. Yes, my good Sirs; for you do, in fact, partake in a number of polities. But those we named just now are not polities, but arrangements of States which rule or serve parts of themselves, and each is named after the ruling power.
713. ΑΘ. ὄντως γάρ, ὦ ἄριστοι, πολιτειῶν μετέχετε· ἃς δὲ ὠνομάκαμεν νῦν, οὐκ εἰσὶν πολιτεῖαι, πόλεων δὲ οἰκήσεις δεσποζομένων τε καὶ δουλευουσῶν μέρεσιν ἑαυτῶν τισι, τὸ τοῦ δεσπότου δὲ ἑκάστη προσαγορεύεται κράτος.
713a. But if the State ought to be named after any such thing, the name it should have borne is that of the God who is the true ruler of rational men.
713a. χρῆν δʼ εἴπερ του τοιούτου τὴν πόλιν ἔδει ἐπονομάζεσθαι, τὸ τοῦ ἀληθῶς τῶν τὸν νοῦν ἐχόντων δεσπόζοντος θεοῦ ὄνομα λέγεσθαι.
Clin. Who is that God?
ΚΛ. τίς δʼ ὁ θεός;
Ath. May we, then, do a little more story-telling, if we are to answer this question suitably?
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν μύθῳ σμικρά γʼ ἔτι προσχρηστέον, εἰ μέλλομεν ἐμμελῶς πως δηλῶσαι τὸ νῦν ἐρωτώμενον;
Clin. Should we not do so?
ΚΛ. οὐκοῦν χρὴ ταύτῃ δρᾶν;
Ath. We should. Long ages before even those cities existed whose formation we have described above, there existed in the time of Cronos, it is said, a most prosperous government and settlement, on which the best of the States now existing is modelled.
ΑΘ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. τῶν γὰρ δὴ πόλεων ὧν ἔμπροσθε τὰς συνοικήσεις διήλθομεν, ἔτι προτέρα τούτων πάμπολυ λέγεταί τις ἀρχή τε καὶ οἴκησις γεγονέναι ἐπὶ Κρόνου μάλʼ εὐδαίμων, ἧς μίμημα ἔχουσά ἐστιν ἥτις τῶν νῦν ἄριστα οἰκεῖται.
713b. Clin. Evidently it is most important to hear about it.Ath. I, for one, think so; and that is why I have introduced the mention of it.Meg. You were perfectly right to do so; and, since your story is pertinent, you will be quite right in going on with it to the end.
713b. ΚΛ. σφόδρʼ ἄν, ὡς ἔοικʼ, εἴη περὶ αὐτῆς δέον ἀκούειν.ΑΘ. ἐμοὶ γοῦν φαίνεται· διὸ καὶ παρήγαγον αὐτὴν εἰς τὸ μέσον τοῖς λόγοις.ΚΛ. ὀρθότατά γε δρῶν· καὶ τόν γε ἑξῆς περαίνων ἂν μῦθον, εἴπερ προσήκων ἐστίν, μάλʼ ὀρθῶς ἂν ποιοίης.
713c. Ath. I must do as you say. Well, then, tradition tells us how blissful was the life of men in that age, furnished with everything in abundance, and of spontaneous growth. And the cause thereof is said to have been this: Cronos was aware of the fact that no human being (as we have explained ) is capable of having irresponsible control of all human affairs without becoming filled with pride and injustice; so, pondering this fact, he then appointed as kings and rulers for our cities, not men, but beings of a race that was nobler and more divine, namely, daemons.
713c. ΑΘ. δραστέον ὡς λέγετε. φήμην τοίνυν παραδεδέγμεθα τῆς τῶν τότε μακαρίας ζωῆς ὡς ἄφθονά τε καὶ αὐτόματα πάντʼ εἶχεν. ἡ δὲ τούτων αἰτία λέγεται τοιάδε τις. γιγνώσκων ὁ Κρόνος ἄρα, καθάπερ ἡμεῖς διεληλύθαμεν, ὡς ἀνθρωπεία φύσις οὐδεμία ἱκανὴ τὰ ἀνθρώπινα διοικοῦσα αὐτοκράτωρ πάντα, μὴ οὐχ ὕβρεώς τε καὶ ἀδικίας μεστοῦσθαι, ταῦτʼ οὖν διανοούμενος ἐφίστη τότε βασιλέας τε καὶ ἄρχοντας ταῖς πόλεσιν ἡμῶν, οὐκ ἀνθρώπους ἀλλὰ γένους θειοτέρου τε καὶ ἀμείνονος, δαίμονας, οἷον νῦν ἡμεῖς δρῶμεν τοῖς ποιμνίοις καὶ ὅσων ἥμεροί εἰσιν ἀγέλαι·
713d. He acted just as we now do in the case of sheep and herds of tame animals: we do not set oxen as rulers over oxen, or goats over goats, but we, who are of a nobler race, ourselves rule over them. In like manner the God, in his love for humanity, set over us at that time the nobler race of daemons who, with much comfort to themselves and much to us, took charge of us and furnished peace and modesty and orderliness and justice without stint, and thus made the tribes of men free from feud and happy.
713d. οὐ βοῦς βοῶν οὐδὲ αἶγας αἰγῶν ἄρχοντας ποιοῦμεν αὐτοῖσί τινας, ἀλλʼ ἡμεῖς αὐτῶν δεσπόζομεν, ἄμεινον ἐκείνων γένος. ταὐτὸν δὴ καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἄρα καὶ φιλάνθρωπος ὤν, τὸ γένος ἄμεινον ἡμῶν ἐφίστη τὸ τῶν δαιμόνων, ὃ διὰ πολλῆς μὲν αὐτοῖς ῥᾳστώνης, πολλῆς δʼ ἡμῖν, ἐπιμελούμενον ἡμῶν, εἰρήνην τε καὶ αἰδῶ καὶ εὐνομίαν καὶ ἀφθονίαν δίκης παρεχόμενον, ἀστασίαστα καὶ εὐδαίμονα τὰ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀπηργάζετο γένη.
714. Ath. And even today this tale has a truth to tell, namely, that wherever a State has a mortal, and no god, for ruler, there the people have no rest from ills and toils; and it deems that we ought by every means to imitate the life of the age of Cronos, as tradition paints it, and order both our homes and our States in obedience to the immortal element within us, giving to reason’s ordering the name of “law.”
714. ΑΘ. λέγει δὴ καὶ νῦν οὗτος ὁ λόγος, ἀληθείᾳ χρώμενος, ὡς ὅσων ἂν πόλεων μὴ θεὸς ἀλλά τις ἄρχῃ θνητός, οὐκ ἔστιν κακῶν αὐτοῖς οὐδὲ πόνων ἀνάφυξις· ἀλλὰ μιμεῖσθαι δεῖν ἡμᾶς οἴεται πάσῃ μηχανῇ τὸν ἐπὶ τοῦ Κρόνου λεγόμενον βίον, καὶ ὅσον ἐν ἡμῖν ἀθανασίας ἔνεστι, τούτῳ πειθομένους δημοσίᾳ καὶ ἰδίᾳ τάς τʼ οἰκήσεις καὶ τὰς πόλεις διοικεῖν, τὴν τοῦ νοῦ διανομὴν ἐπονομάζοντας νόμον.
714a. But if an individual man or an oligarchy or a democracy, possessed of a soul which strives after pleasures and lusts and seeks to surfeit itself therewith, having no continence and being the victim of a plague that is endless and insatiate of evil,— if such an one shall rule over a State or an individual by trampling on the laws, then there is (as I said just now) no means of salvation.
714a. εἰ δʼ ἄνθρωπος εἷς ἢ ὀλιγαρχία τις, ἢ καὶ δημοκρατία ψυχὴν ἔχουσα ἡδονῶν καὶ ἐπιθυμιῶν ὀρεγομένην καὶ πληροῦσθαι τούτων δεομένην, στέγουσαν δὲ οὐδὲν ἀλλʼ ἀνηνύτῳ καὶ ἀπλήστῳ κακῷ νοσήματι συνεχομένην, ἄρξει δὴ πόλεως ἤ τινος ἰδιώτου καταπατήσας ὁ τοιοῦτος τοὺς νόμους, ὃ νυνδὴ ἐλέγομεν, οὐκ ἔστι σωτηρίας μηχανή. σκοπεῖν δὴ δεῖ τοῦτον τὸν λόγον ἡμᾶς, ὦ Κλεινία, πότερον αὐτῷ πεισόμεθα ἢ πῶς δράσομεν.
714b. This, then, is the statement, Clinias, which we have to examine, to see whether we believe it, or what we are to do.Clin. We must, of course, believe it.Ath. Are you aware that, according to some, there are as many kinds of laws as there are kinds of constitutions? And how many constitutions are commonly recognized we have recently recounted. Please do not suppose that the problem now raised is one of small importance; rather it is of the highest importance. For we are again faced with the problem as to what ought to be the aim of justice and injustice. The assertion of the people I refer to is this,— that the laws ought not to aim either at war or at goodness in general, but ought to have regard to the benefit of the established polity, whatever it may be, so that it may keep in power forever and never be dissolved; and that the natural definition of justice is best stated in this way.
714b. ΚΛ. ἀνάγκη δήπου πείθεσθαι.ΑΘ. ἐννοεῖς οὖν ὅτι νόμων εἴδη τινές φασιν εἶναι τοσαῦτα ὅσαπερ πολιτειῶν, πολιτειῶν δὲ ἄρτι διεληλύθαμεν ὅσα λέγουσιν οἱ πολλοί; μὴ δὴ φαύλου πέρι νομίσῃς εἶναι τὴν νῦν ἀμφισβήτησιν, περὶ δὲ τοῦ μεγίστου· τὸ γὰρ δίκαιον καὶ ἄδικον οἷ χρὴ βλέπειν, πάλιν ἡμῖν ἀμφισβητούμενον ἐλήλυθεν. οὔτε γὰρ πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον οὔτε πρὸς ἀρετὴν ὅλην βλέπειν δεῖν φασι τοὺς νόμους, ἀλλʼ ἥτις ἂν καθεστηκυῖα ᾖ πολιτεία, ταύτῃ ἰδεῖν τὸ συμφέρον, ὅπως ἄρξει τε ἀεὶ καὶ μὴ καταλυθήσεται, καὶ τὸν φύσει ὅρον τοῦ δικαίου λέγεσθαι κάλλισθʼ οὕτω.
714c. Clin. In what way?Ath. That justice is “what benefits the stronger.”.Clin. Explain yourself more clearly.Ath. This is how it is:—the laws (they say) in a State are always enacted by the stronger power? Is it not so?Clin. That is quite true.Ath. Do you suppose, then (so they argue), that a democracy or any other government—even a tyrant—if it has gained the mastery, will of its own accord set up laws with any other primary aim than that of securing the permanence of its own authority? Clin. Certainly not.Ath. Then the lawgiver will style these enactments “justice,” and will punish every transgressor as guilty of injustice.Clin. That is certainly probable.Ath. So these enactments will thus and herein always constitute justice.Clin. That is, at any rate, what the argument asserts.
714c. ΚΛ. πῶς;ΑΘ. ὅτι τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον ἐστίν.ΚΛ. λέγʼ ἔτι σαφέστερον.ΑΘ. ὧδε. τίθεται δήπου, φασίν, τοὺς νόμους ἐν τῇ πόλει ἑκάστοτε τὸ κρατοῦν. ἦ γάρ;ΚΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν οἴει, φασίν, ποτὲ δῆμον νικήσαντα, ἤ τινα πολιτείαν ἄλλην, ἢ καὶ τύραννον, θήσεσθαι ἑκόντα πρὸς ἄλλο τι πρῶτον νόμους ἢ τὸ συμφέρον ἑαυτῷ τῆς ἀρχῆς τοῦ μένειν;ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ ἄν;ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ὃς ἂν ταῦτα τὰ τεθέντα παραβαίνῃ, κολάσει ὁ θέμενος ὡς ἀδικοῦντα, δίκαια εἶναι ταῦτʼ ἐπονομάζων;ΚΛ. ἔοικε γοῦν.ΑΘ. ταῦτʼ ἄρʼ ἀεὶ καὶ οὕτω καὶ ταύτῃ τὸ δίκαιον ἂν ἔχοι.ΚΛ. φησὶ γοῦν οὗτος ὁ λόγος.ΑΘ. ἔστι γὰρ τοῦτο ἓν ἐκείνων τῶν ἀξιωμάτων ἀρχῆς πέρι.