817. Ath. Let such, then, be the regulations for all those laughable amusements which we all call “comedy,” as laid down both by law and by argument.
817. ΑΘ. ὅσα μὲν οὖν περὶ γέλωτά ἐστιν παίγνια, ἃ δὴ κωμῳδίαν πάντες λέγομεν, οὕτως τῷ νόμῳ καὶ λόγῳ κείσθω·
817a. Now as to what are called our “serious” poets, the tragedians,—suppose that some of them were to approach us and put some such question as this,—“O Strangers, are we, or are we not, to pay visits to your city and country, and traffic in poetry? Or what have you decided to do about this?” What would be the right answer to make to these inspired persons regarding the matter? In my judgment, this should be the answer, —“Most excellent of Strangers, we ourselves, to the best of our ability, are the authors of a tragedy at once superlatively fair and good; at least, all our polity is framed as a representation of the fairest and best life, which is in reality, as we assert, the truest tragedy.
817a. τῶν δὲ σπουδαίων, ὥς φασι, τῶν περὶ τραγῳδίαν ἡμῖν ποιητῶν, ἐάν ποτέ τινες αὐτῶν ἡμᾶς ἐλθόντες ἐπανερωτήσωσιν οὑτωσί πως· ὦ ξένοι, πότερον φοιτῶμεν ὑμῖν εἰς τὴν πόλιν τε καὶ χώραν ἢ μή, καὶ τὴν ποίησιν φέρωμέν τε καὶ ἄγωμεν, ἢ πῶς ὑμῖν δέδοκται περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα δρᾶν; — τί οὖν ἂν πρὸς ταῦτα ὀρθῶς ἀποκριναίμεθα τοῖς θείοις ἀνδράσιν;
817b. Thus we are composers of the same things as yourselves, rivals of yours as artists and actors of the fairest drama, which, as our hope is, true law, and it alone, is by nature competent to complete. Do not imagine, then, that we will ever thus lightly allow you to set up your stage beside us in the marketplace, and give permission to those imported actors of yours, with their dulcet tones and their voices louder than ours, to harangue women and children and the whole populace, and to say not the same things as we say about the same institutions, but, on the contrary, things that are, for the most part, just the opposite. In truth, both we ourselves and the whole State would be absolutely mad, were it to allow you to do as I have said, before the magistrates had decided whether or not your compositions are deserving of utterance and suited for publication.
817b. ἐμοὶ μὲν γὰρ δοκεῖ τάδε· ὦ ἄριστοι, φάναι, τῶν ξένων, ἡμεῖς ἐσμὲν τραγῳδίας αὐτοὶ ποιηταὶ κατὰ δύναμιν ὅτι καλλίστης ἅμα καὶ ἀρίστης· πᾶσα οὖν ἡμῖν ἡ πολιτεία συνέστηκε μίμησις τοῦ καλλίστου καὶ ἀρίστου βίου, ὃ δή φαμεν ἡμεῖς γε ὄντως εἶναι τραγῳδίαν τὴν ἀληθεστάτην. ποιηταὶ μὲν οὖν ὑμεῖς, ποιηταὶ δὲ καὶ ἡμεῖς ἐσμὲν τῶν αὐτῶν, ὑμῖν ἀντίτεχνοί τε καὶ ἀνταγωνισταὶ τοῦ καλλίστου δράματος, ὃ δὴ νόμος ἀληθὴς μόνος ἀποτελεῖν πέφυκεν, ὡς ἡ παρʼ ἡμῶν ἐστιν ἐλπίς· μὴ δὴ δόξητε ἡμᾶς ῥᾳδίως γε οὕτως ὑμᾶς ποτε παρʼ ἡμῖν ἐάσειν σκηνάς τε πήξαντας κατʼ ἀγορὰν καὶ καλλιφώνους ὑποκριτὰς εἰσαγαγομένους, μεῖζον φθεγγομένους ἡμῶν, ἐπιτρέψειν ὑμῖν δημηγορεῖν πρὸς παῖδάς τε καὶ γυναῖκας καὶ τὸν πάντα ὄχλον, τῶν αὐτῶν λέγοντας ἐπιτηδευμάτων πέρι μὴ τὰ αὐτὰ ἅπερ ἡμεῖς, ἀλλʼ ὡς τὸ πολὺ καὶ ἐναντία τὰ πλεῖστα. σχεδὸν γάρ τοι κἂν μαινοίμεθα τελέως ἡμεῖς τε καὶ ἅπασα ἡ πόλις, ἡτισοῦν ὑμῖν ἐπιτρέποι δρᾶν τὰ νῦν λεγόμενα, πρὶν κρῖναι τὰς ἀρχὰς εἴτε ῥητὰ καὶ ἐπιτήδεια πεποιήκατε λέγειν εἰς τὸ μέσον εἴτε μή.
817d. So now, ye children and offspring of Muses mild, do ye first display your chants side by side with ours before the rulers; and if your utterances seem to be the same as ours or better, then we will grant you a chorus, but if not, my friends, we can never do so.”
817d. νῦν οὖν, ὦ παῖδες μαλακῶν Μουσῶν ἔκγονοι, ἐπιδείξαντες τοῖς ἄρχουσι πρῶτον τὰς ὑμετέρας παρὰ τὰς ἡμετέρας ᾠδάς, ἂν μὲν τὰ αὐτά γε ἢ καὶ βελτίω τὰ παρʼ ὑμῶν φαίνηται λεγόμενα, δώσομεν ὑμῖν χορόν, εἰ δὲ μή, ὦ φίλοι, οὐκ ἄν ποτε δυναίμεθα.
817e. Let such, then, be the customs ordained to go with the laws regarding all choristry and the learning thereof—keeping distinct those for slaves and those for masters,—if you agree.
817e. ταῦτʼ οὖν ἔστω περὶ πᾶσαν χορείαν καὶ μάθησιν τούτων πέρι συντεταγμένα νόμοις ἔθη, χωρὶς μὲν τὰ τῶν δούλων, χωρὶς δὲ τὰ τῶν δεσποτῶν, εἰ συνδοκεῖ.
Clin. Of course we now agree to it.
ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὐ συνδοκεῖ νῦν γε οὕτως;
818. Ath. There still remain, for the freeborn, three branches of learning: of these the first is reckoning and arithmetic; the second is the art of measuring length and surface and solid; the third deals with the course of the stars, and how they naturally travel in relation to one another.
818. ΑΘ. ἔτι δὴ τοίνυν τοῖς ἐλευθέροις ἔστιν τρία μαθήματα, λογισμοὶ μὲν καὶ τὰ περὶ ἀριθμοὺς ἓν μάθημα, μετρητικὴ δὲ μήκους καὶ ἐπιπέδου καὶ βάθους ὡς ἓν αὖ δεύτερον, τρίτον δὲ τῆς τῶν ἄστρων περιόδου πρὸς ἄλληλα ὡς πέφυκεν πορεύεσθαι.
818a. All these sciences should not be studied with minute accuracy by the majority of pupils, but only by a select few—and who these are we shall say when we have come near the end,—since that will be the proper place: but for the bulk of the pupils, while it would be shameful for most of them not to understand all those parts of them that are most truly termed “necessary,” yet it is not easy nor even at all possible for every student to go into them minutely. The necessary part of them it is impossible to reject, and probably this is what was in the mind of the original author of the proverb, “Not even God will ever be seen fighting against Necessity,”—meaning by this, I suppose, all kinds of necessity that are divine, since in relation to human necessities (to which most people apply the saying when they quote it) it is of all sayings far and away the most fatuous.
818a. ταῦτα δὲ σύμπαντα οὐχ ὡς ἀκριβείας ἐχόμενα δεῖ διαπονεῖν τοὺς πολλοὺς ἀλλά τινας ὀλίγους— οὓς δέ, προϊόντες ἐπὶ τῷ τέλει φράσομεν· οὕτω γὰρ πρέπον ἂν εἴη—τῷ πλήθει δέ, ὅσα αὐτῶν ἀναγκαῖα καί πως ὀρθότατα λέγεται μὴ ἐπίστασθαι μὲν τοῖς πολλοῖς αἰσχρόν, διʼ ἀκριβείας δὲ ζητεῖν πάντα οὔτε ῥᾴδιον οὔτε τὸ παράπαν δυνατόν. τὸ δὲ ἀναγκαῖον αὐτῶν οὐχ οἷόν τε ἀποβάλλειν, ἀλλʼ ἔοικεν ὁ τὸν θεὸν πρῶτον παροιμιασάμενος εἰς ταῦτα ἀποβλέψας εἰπεῖν ὡς οὐδὲ θεὸς ἀνάγκῃ μή ποτε φανῇ μαχόμενος, ὅσαι θεῖαί γε, οἶμαι, τῶν γε ἀναγκῶν εἰσίν·
818b. Clin. What necessities then, Stranger, belong to these sciences, that are not of this sort, but divine?Ath. Those, as I believe, which must be practiced and learned by every god, daemon, and hero, if he is to be competent seriously to supervise mankind: a man certainly would be far from becoming godlike if he were incapable of learning the nature of one and of two, and of even and odd numbers in general, and if he knew nothing at all about counting, and could not count even day and night as distinct objects, and if he were ignorant of the circuit of the sun and moon and all the other stars.
818b. ἐπεὶ τῶν γε ἀνθρωπίνων, εἰς ἃς οἱ πολλοὶ βλέποντες λέγουσι τὸ τοιοῦτον, οὗτος πάντων τῶν λόγων εὐηθέστατός ἐστιν μακρῷ.ΚΛ. τίνες οὖν, ὦ ξένε, αἱ μὴ τοιαῦται ἀνάγκαι τῶν μαθημάτων, θεῖαι δέ;ΑΘ. δοκῶ μέν, ἃς μή τις πράξας μηδὲ αὖ μαθὼν τὸ παράπαν οὐκ ἄν ποτε γένοιτο ἀνθρώποις θεὸς οὐδὲ δαίμων οὐδὲ ἥρως οἷος δυνατὸς ἀνθρώπων ἐπιμέλειαν σὺν σπουδῇ ποιεῖσθαι· πολλοῦ δʼ ἂν δεήσειεν ἄνθρωπός γε θεῖος γενέσθαι μήτε ἓν μήτε δύο μήτε τρία μήθʼ ὅλως ἄρτια καὶ περιττὰ δυνάμενος γιγνώσκειν, μηδὲ ἀριθμεῖν τὸ παράπαν εἰδώς, μηδὲ νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν διαριθμεῖσθαι δυνατὸς ὤν, σελήνης δὲ καὶ ἡλίου καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἄστρων περιφορᾶς ἀπείρως ἔχων.
818d. To suppose, then, that all these studies are not “necessary” for a man who means to understand almost any single one of the fairest sciences, is a most foolish supposition. The first thing we must grasp correctly is this—which of these branches of study must be learnt, and how many, and at what periods, and which of them in conjunction with which, and which by themselves apart from all others, and the method of combining them; this done, and with these studies as introductory, we may proceed to the learning of the rest. For such is the natural order of procedure as determined by Necessity, against whom, as we declare, no god fights now, nor ever will fight.
818d. ταῦτʼ οὖν δὴ πάντα ὡς μὲν οὐκ ἀναγκαῖά ἐστι μαθήματα τῷ μέλλοντι σχεδὸν ὁτιοῦν τῶν καλλίστων μαθημάτων εἴσεσθαι, πολλὴ καὶ μωρία τοῦ διανοήματος· ποῖα δὲ ἕκαστα τούτων καὶ πόσα καὶ πότε μαθητέον, καὶ τί μετὰ τίνος καὶ τί χωρὶς τῶν ἄλλων, καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν τούτων κρᾶσιν, ταῦτά ἐστιν ἃ δεῖ λαβόντα ὀρθῶς πρῶτα, ἐπὶ τἆλλα ἰόντα τούτων ἡγουμένων τῶν μαθημάτων μανθάνειν. οὕτω γὰρ ἀνάγκη φύσει κατείληφεν, ᾗ φαμεν οὐδένα θεῶν οὔτε μάχεσθαι τὰ νῦν οὔτε μαχεῖσθαί ποτε.
818e. Clin. Yes, Stranger, this account of yours does seem to be in accord with nature, and true.
818e. ΚΛ. ἔοικέν γε, ὦ ξένε, νῦν οὕτω πως ῥηθέντα ὀρθῶς εἰρῆσθαι καὶ κατὰ φύσιν ἃ λέγεις.
Ath. That is indeed the truth of the matter, Clinias; but to give legal enactment to this program of ours is difficult. We will, if you agree, enact this more precisely on a later occasion.
ΑΘ. ἔχει μὲν γὰρ οὕτως, ὦ Κλεινία, χαλεπὸν δὲ αὐτὰ προταξάμενον τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ νομοθετεῖν· ἀλλʼ εἰς ἄλλον, εἰ δοκεῖ, χρόνον ἀκριβέστερον ἂν νομοθετησαίμεθα.
Clin. You appear to us, Stranger, to be scared by the neglect of such studies which is the habit in our countries; but you are wrong to be scared. Do not be deterred on that account, but try to proceed with your statement.
ΚΛ. δοκεῖς ἡμῖν, ὦ ξένε, φοβεῖσθαι τὸ τῆς ἡμετέρας περὶ τῶν τοιούτων ἀπειρίας ἔθος. οὔκουν ὀρθῶς φοβῇ· πειρῶ δὴ λέγειν μηδὲν ἀποκρυπτόμενος ἕνεκα τούτων.
819a. Ath. I am indeed scared about the habit you mention, but I am still more alarmed about the people who take up these very sciences for study, and do so badly. Complete and absolute ignorance of them is never alarming, nor is it a very great evil; much more mischievous is a wide variety of knowledge and learning combined with bad training.
819a. ΑΘ. φοβοῦμαι μὲν καὶ ταῦτα ἃ σὺ νῦν λέγεις, μᾶλλον δʼ ἔτι δέδοικα τοὺς ἡμμένους μὲν αὐτῶν τούτων τῶν μαθημάτων, κακῶς δʼ ἡμμένους. οὐδαμοῦ γὰρ δεινὸν οὐδὲ σφοδρὸν ἀπειρία τῶν πάντων οὐδὲ μέγιστον κακόν, ἀλλʼ ἡ πολυπειρία καὶ πολυμαθία μετὰ κακῆς ἀγωγῆς γίγνεται πολὺ τούτων μείζων ζημία.
Clin. That is true.
ΚΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
Ath. One ought to declare, then, that the freeborn children should learn as much of these subjects as the innumerable crowd of children in Egypt learn along with their letters.
ΑΘ. τοσάδε τοίνυν ἑκάστων χρὴ φάναι μανθάνειν δεῖν τοὺς ἐλευθέρους, ὅσα καὶ πάμπολυς ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ παίδων ὄχλος ἅμα γράμμασι μανθάνει.
819b. First, as regards counting, lessons have been invented for the merest infants to learn, by way of play and fun,—modes of dividing up apples and chaplets, so that the same totals are adjusted to larger and smaller groups, and modes of sorting out boxers and wrestlers, in byes and pairs, taking them alternately or consecutively, in their natural order. Moreover, by way of play, the teachers mix together bowls made of gold, bronze, silver and the like, and others distribute them, as I said, by groups of a single kind, adapting the rules of elementary arithmetic to play; and thus they are of service to the pupils for their future tasks of drilling, leading and marching armies, or of household management, and they render them both more helpful in every way to themselves and more alert.
819b. πρῶτον μὲν γὰρ περὶ λογισμοὺς ἀτεχνῶς παισὶν ἐξηυρημένα μαθήματα μετὰ παιδιᾶς τε καὶ ἡδονῆς μανθάνειν, μήλων τέ τινων διανομαὶ καὶ στεφάνων πλείοσιν ἅμα καὶ ἐλάττοσιν ἁρμοττόντων ἀριθμῶν τῶν αὐτῶν, καὶ πυκτῶν καὶ παλαιστῶν ἐφεδρείας τε καὶ συλλήξεως ἐν μέρει καὶ ἐφεξῆς καὶ ὡς πεφύκασι γίγνεσθαι. καὶ δὴ καὶ παίζοντες, φιάλας ἅμα χρυσοῦ καὶ χαλκοῦ καὶ ἀργύρου καὶ τοιούτων τινῶν ἄλλων κεραννύντες, οἱ δὲ καὶ ὅλας πως διαδιδόντες, ὅπερ εἶπον, εἰς παιδιὰν ἐναρμόττοντες τὰς τῶν ἀναγκαίων ἀριθμῶν χρήσεις, ὠφελοῦσι τοὺς μανθάνοντας εἴς τε τὰς τῶν στρατοπέδων τάξεις καὶ ἀγωγὰς καὶ στρατείας καὶ εἰς οἰκονομίας αὖ, καὶ πάντως χρησιμωτέρους αὐτοὺς αὑτοῖς καὶ ἐγρηγορότας μᾶλλον τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἀπεργάζονται· μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα ἐν ταῖς μετρήσεσιν, ὅσα ἔχει μήκη καὶ πλάτη καὶ βάθη, περὶ ἅπαντα ταῦτα ἐνοῦσάν τινα φύσει γελοίαν τε καὶ αἰσχρὰν ἄγνοιαν ἐν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις πᾶσιν, ταύτης ἀπαλλάττουσιν.
819d. The next step of the teachers is to clear away, by lessons in weights and measures, a certain kind of ignorance, both absurd and disgraceful, which is naturally inherent in all men touching lines, surfaces and solids.Clin. What ignorance do you mean, and of what kind is it?Ath. My dear Clinias, when I was told quite lately of our condition in regard to this matter, I was utterly astounded myself: it seemed to me to be the condition of guzzling swine rather than of human beings, and I was ashamed, not only of myself, but of all the Greek world.
819d. ΚΛ. ποίαν δὴ καὶ τίνα λέγεις ταύτην;ΑΘ. ὦ φίλε Κλεινία, παντάπασί γε μὴν καὶ αὐτὸς ἀκούσας ὀψέ ποτε τὸ περὶ ταῦτα ἡμῶν πάθος ἐθαύμασα, καὶ ἔδοξέ μοι τοῦτο οὐκ ἀνθρώπινον ἀλλὰ ὑηνῶν τινων εἶναι μᾶλλον θρεμμάτων, ᾐσχύνθην τε οὐχ ὑπὲρ ἐμαυτοῦ μόνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ ὑπὲρ ἁπάντων τῶν Ἑλλήνων.
819e. Clin. Why? Tell us what you mean, Stranger.
819e. ΚΛ. τοῦ πέρι; λέγʼ ὅτι καὶ φῄς, ὦ ξένε.
Ath. I am doing so. But I can explain it better by putting a question. Answer me briefly: you know what a line is?
ΑΘ. λέγω δή· μᾶλλον δὲ ἐρωτῶν σοι δείξω. καί μοι σμικρὸν ἀπόκριναι· γιγνώσκεις που μῆκος;
Ath. And surface?
ΑΘ. τί δέ; πλάτος;
Clin. Certainly.
ΚΛ. πάντως.
Ath. And do you know that these are two things, and that the third thing, next to these, is the solid?
ΑΘ. ἦ καὶ ταῦτα ὅτι δύʼ ἐστόν, καὶ τρίτον τούτων βάθος;
Clin. I do.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Ath. Do you not, then, believe that all these are commensurable one with another?
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ δοκεῖ σοι ταῦτα εἶναι πάντα μετρητὰ πρὸς ἄλληλα;
820. Ath. And you believe, I suppose, that line is really commensurable with line, surface with surface, and solid with solid?
820. ΑΘ. μῆκός τε οἶμαι πρὸς μῆκος, καὶ πλάτος πρὸς πλάτος, καὶ βάθος ὡσαύτως δυνατὸν εἶναι μετρεῖν φύσει.
820a. Clin. Absolutely.
820a. ΚΛ. σφόδρα γε.
Ath. But supposing that some of them are neither absolutely nor moderately commensurable, some being commensurable and some not, whereas you regard them all as commensurable,—what do you think of your mental state with respect to them?
ΑΘ. εἰ δʼ ἔστι μήτε σφόδρα μήτε ἠρέμα δυνατὰ ἔνια, ἀλλὰ τὰ μέν, τὰ δὲ μή, σὺ δὲ πάντα ἡγῇ, πῶς οἴει πρὸς ταῦτα διακεῖσθαι;
Clin. Evidently it is a sorry state.
ΚΛ. δῆλον ὅτι φαύλως.
Ath. Again, as regards the relation of line and surface to solid, or of surface and line to each other—do not all we Greeks imagine that these are somehow commensurable with one another?
ΑΘ. τί δʼ αὖ μῆκός τε καὶ πλάτος πρὸς βάθος, ἢ πλάτος τε καὶ μῆκος πρὸς ἄλληλα; [ὥστε πῶς] ἆρʼ οὐ διανοούμεθα περὶ ταῦτα οὕτως Ἕλληνες πάντες, ὡς δυνατά ἐστι μετρεῖσθαι πρὸς ἄλληλα ἁμῶς γέ πως;
820b. Clin. Most certainly.
820b. ΚΛ. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
Ath. But if they cannot be thus measured by any way or means, while, as I said, all we Greeks imagine that they can, are we not right in being ashamed for them all, and saying to them, “O most noble Greeks, this is one of those ‘necessary’ things which we said it is disgraceful not to know, although there is nothing very grand in knowing such things.”
ΑΘ. εἰ δʼ ἔστιν αὖ μηδαμῶς μηδαμῇ δυνατά, πάντες δʼ, ὅπερ εἶπον, Ἕλληνες διανοούμεθα ὡς δυνατά, μῶν οὐκ ἄξιον ὑπὲρ πάντων αἰσχυνθέντα εἰπεῖν πρὸς αὐτούς· ὦ βέλτιστοι τῶν Ἑλλήνων, ἓν ἐκείνων τοῦτʼ ἐστὶν ὧν ἔφαμεν αἰσχρὸν μὲν γεγονέναι τὸ μὴ ἐπίστασθαι, τὸ δʼ ἐπίστασθαι τἀναγκαῖα οὐδὲν πάνυ καλόν;
Clin. Of course.
ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
Ath. In addition to these there are other matters, closely related to them, in which we find many errors arising that are nearly akin to the errors mentioned.
ΑΘ. καὶ πρὸς τούτοις γε ἄλλα ἔστιν τούτων συγγενῆ, ἐν οἷς αὖ πολλὰ ἁμαρτήματα ἐκείνων ἀδελφὰ ἡμῖν ἐγγίγνεται τῶν ἁμαρτημάτων.
820c. Clin. What are they?
820c. ΚΛ. ποῖα δή;
Ath. Problems concerning the essential nature of the commensurable and the incommensurable. For students who are not to be absolutely worthless it is necessary to examine these and to distinguish the two kinds, and, by proposing such problems one to another, to compete in a game that is worthy of them,—for this is a much more refined pastime than draughts for old men.
ΑΘ. τὰ τῶν μετρητῶν τε καὶ ἀμέτρων πρὸς ἄλληλα ᾗτινι φύσει γέγονεν. ταῦτα γὰρ δὴ σκοποῦντα διαγιγνώσκειν ἀναγκαῖον ἢ παντάπασιν εἶναι φαῦλον, προβάλλοντά τε ἀλλήλοις ἀεί, διατριβὴν τῆς πεττείας πολὺ χαριεστέραν πρεσβυτῶν διατρίβοντα, φιλονικεῖν ἐν ταῖς τούτων ἀξίαισι σχολαῖς.
820d. Clin. No doubt. And, after all, draughts and these studies do not seem to be so very far apart.
820d. ΚΛ. ἴσως· ἔοικεν γοῦν ἥ τε πεττεία καὶ ταῦτα ἀλλήλων τὰ μαθήματα οὐ πάμπολυ κεχωρίσθαι.
Ath. I assert, then, Clinias, that these subjects must be learnt by the young; for they are, in truth, neither harmful nor hard, and when learnt by way of play they will do no damage at all to our State, but will do it good. Should anyone disagree, however, we must listen to him.
ΑΘ. ταῦτα τοίνυν ἐγὼ μέν, ὦ Κλεινία, φημὶ τοὺς νέους δεῖν μανθάνειν· καὶ γὰρ οὔτε βλαβερὰ οὔτε χαλεπά ἐστιν, μετὰ δὲ παιδιᾶς ἅμα μανθανόμενα ὠφελήσει μέν, βλάψει δὲ ἡμῖν τὴν πόλιν οὐδέν. εἰ δέ τις ἄλλως λέγει, ἀκουστέον.
Clin. Of course.
ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
Ath. Well then, if this is clearly the case, obviously we shall adopt these subjects; but if it seems clearly to be otherwise, we shall rule them out.
ΑΘ. ἀλλὰ μὴν ἂν οὕτω ταῦτα ἔχοντα φαίνηται, δῆλον ὡς ἐγκρινοῦμεν αὐτά, μὴ ταύτῃ δὲ φαινόμενα ἔχειν ἀποκριθήσεται.
820e. Clin. Yes, obviously.
820e. ΚΛ. δῆλον· τί μήν;
Ath. Shall we not, then, lay these down as necessary subjects of instruction, so that there may be no gap in our code of laws? Yet we ought to lay them down provisionally—like pledges capable of redemption—apart from the rest of our constitution, in case they fail to satisfy either us who enact them or you for whom they are enacted.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν νῦν, ὦ ξένε, κείσθω ταῦτα ὡς ὄντα τῶν δεόντων μαθημάτων, ἵνα μὴ διάκενα ἡμῖν ᾖ τὰ τῶν νόμων; κείσθω μέντοι καθάπερ ἐνέχυρα λύσιμα ἐκ τῆς ἄλλης πολιτείας, ἐὰν ἢ τοὺς θέντας ἡμᾶς ἢ καὶ τοὺς θεμένους ὑμᾶς μηδαμῶς φιλοφρονῆται.
Clin. Yes, that is the right way to lay them down.
ΚΛ. δικαίαν λέγεις τὴν θέσιν.
Ath. Consider next whether or not we approve of the children learning astronomy.
ΑΘ. ἄστρων δὴ τὸ μετὰ ταῦτα ὅρα τὴν μάθησιν τοῖς νέοις, ἂν ἡμᾶς ἀρέσκῃ λεχθεῖσα ἢ καὶ τοὐναντίον.
Clin. Just tell us your opinion.
ΚΛ. λέγε μόνον.
Ath. About this there is a very strange fact—indeed, quite intolerable.
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν θαῦμά γε περὶ αὐτά ἐστιν μέγα καὶ οὐδαμῶς οὐδαμῇ ἀνεκτόν.
821a. Clin. What is that?
821a. ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον δή;
Ath. We commonly assert that men ought not to enquire concerning the greatest god and about the universe, nor busy themselves in searching out their causes, since it is actually impious to do so; whereas the right course, in all probability, is exactly the opposite.
ΑΘ. τὸν μέγιστον θεὸν καὶ ὅλον τὸν κόσμον φαμὲν οὔτε ζητεῖν δεῖν οὔτε πολυπραγμονεῖν τὰς αἰτίας ἐρευνῶντας—οὐ γὰρ οὐδʼ ὅσιον εἶναι—τὸ δὲ ἔοικεν πᾶν τούτου τοὐναντίον γιγνόμενον ὀρθῶς ἂν γίγνεσθαι.
Clin. Explain yourself.
ΚΛ. πῶς εἶπες;
Ath. My statement sounds paradoxical, and it might be thought to be unbecoming in an old man; but the fact is that, when a man believes that a science is fair and true and beneficial to the State and altogether well-pleasing to God, he cannot possibly refrain any longer from declaring it.
ΑΘ. παράδοξον μὲν τὸ λεγόμενον, καὶ οὐκ ἂν πρεσβύταις τις οἰηθείη πρέπειν· τὸ δὲ ἐπειδάν τίς τι καλόν τε οἰηθῇ καὶ ἀληθὲς μάθημα εἶναι καὶ πόλει συμφέρον καὶ τῷ θεῷ παντάπασι φίλον, οὐδενὶ δὴ τρόπῳ δυνατόν ἐστιν ἔτι μὴ φράζειν.
821b. Clin. That is reasonable; but what science of this kind shall we find on the subject of stars?
821b. ΚΛ. εἰκότα λέγεις· ἀλλʼ ἄστρων πέρι μάθημα τί τοιοῦτον ἀνευρήσομεν;
Ath. At present, my good sirs, nearly all we Greeks say what is false about those mighty deities, the Sun and Moon.
ΑΘ. ὦ ἀγαθοί, καταψευδόμεθα νῦν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν Ἕλληνες πάντες μεγάλων θεῶν, Ἡλίου τε ἅμα καὶ Σελήνης.
Clin. What is the falsehood?
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον δὴ ψεῦδος;
Ath. We assert that they, and some other stars along with them, never travel along the same path; and we call them “planets.”
ΑΘ. φαμὲν αὐτὰ οὐδέποτε τὴν αὐτὴν ὁδὸν ἰέναι, καὶ ἄλλʼ ἄττα ἄστρα μετὰ τούτων, ἐπονομάζοντες πλανητὰ αὐτά.
821c. Clin. Yes, by Zeus, Stranger, that is true; for I, during my life, have often noticed how Phosphorus and Hesperus and other stars never travel on the same course, but “wander” all ways; but as to the Sun and Moon, we all know that they are constantly doing this.
821c. ΚΛ. νὴ τὸν Δία, ὦ ξένε, ἀληθὲς τοῦτο λέγεις· ἐν γὰρ δὴ τῷ βίῳ πολλάκις ἑώρακα καὶ αὐτὸς τόν τε Ἑωσφόρον καὶ τὸν Ἕσπερον καὶ ἄλλους τινὰς οὐδέποτε ἰόντας εἰς τὸν αὐτὸν δρόμον ἀλλὰ πάντῃ πλανωμένους, τὸν δὲ ἥλιόν που καὶ σελήνην δρῶντας ταῦθʼ ἃ ἀεὶ πάντες συνεπιστάμεθα.
Ath. It is precisely for this reason, Megillus and Clinias, that I now assert that our citizens and our children ought to learn so much concerning all these facts about the gods of Heaven as to enable them not to blaspheme about them, but always to speak piously both at sacrifices and when they pray reverently at prayers.
ΑΘ. ταῦτʼ ἔστι τοίνυν, ὦ Μέγιλλέ τε καὶ Κλεινία, νῦν ἃ δή φημι δεῖν περὶ θεῶν τῶν κατʼ οὐρανὸν τούς γε ἡμετέρους πολίτας τε καὶ τοὺς νέους τὸ μέχρι τοσούτου μαθεῖν περὶ ἁπάντων τούτων, μέχρι τοῦ μὴ βλασφημεῖν περὶ αὐτά, εὐφημεῖν δὲ ἀεὶ θύοντάς τε καὶ ἐν εὐχαῖς εὐχομένους εὐσεβῶς.
821d. Clin. You are right, provided that, in the first place, it is possible to learn the subject you mention; and provided also that learning will make us correct any mistakes we may be making about them now,—then I, too, agree that a subject of such importance should be learned. This being so, do you make every effort to expound the matter, and we will endeavor to follow you and learn.
821d. ΚΛ. τοῦτο μὲν ὀρθόν, εἴ γε πρῶτον μὲν δυνατόν ἐστιν ὃ λέγεις μαθεῖν· εἶτα, εἰ μὴ λέγομέν τι περὶ αὐτῶν ὀρθῶς νῦν, μαθόντες δὲ λέξομεν, συγχωρῶ κἀγὼ τό γε τοσοῦτον καὶ τοιοῦτον ὂν μαθητέον εἶναι. ταῦτʼ οὖν ὡς ἔχοντά ἐσθʼ οὕτω, πειρῶ σὺ μὲν ἐξηγεῖσθαι πάντως, ἡμεῖς δὲ συνέπεσθαί σοι μανθάνοντες.
821e. Ath. Well, the matter I speak of is not an easy one to learn; nor yet is it altogether difficult and demanding very prolonged study. In proof of this—although I was told of it neither in the days of my youth nor long ago, I may be able to explain it to you in a comparatively short time. Whereas, if it had been a difficult subject, I should never have been able to explain it to you at all—I at my age to you at yours.
821e. ΑΘ. ἀλλʼ ἔστι μὲν οὐ ῥᾴδιον ὃ λέγω μαθεῖν, οὐδʼ αὖ παντάπασι χαλεπόν, οὐδέ γέ τινος χρόνου παμπόλλου. τεκμήριον δέ· ἐγὼ τούτων οὔτε νέος οὔτε πάλαι ἀκηκοὼς σφῷν ἂν νῦν οὐκ ἐν πολλῷ χρόνῳ δηλῶσαι δυναίμην. καίτοι χαλεπά γε ὄντα οὐκ ἄν ποτε οἷός τʼ ἦν δηλοῦν τηλικούτοις οὖσι τηλικοῦτος.
822. Clin. Very true. But what is this science which you describe as marvellous and fitting for the young to learn, and which we are ignorant about?
822. ΚΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις. ἀλλὰ τί καὶ φῂς τοῦτο τὸ μάθημα ὃ θαυμαστὸν μὲν λέγεις, προσῆκον δʼ αὖ μαθεῖν τοῖς νέοις, οὐ γιγνώσκειν δὲ ἡμᾶς;
822a. Do try to tell us thus much, at least, about it, with all possible clearness,Ath. I must try. The opinion, my friends, that the Sun and Moon and the rest of the stars “wander” is not correct; the truth is precisely the opposite: each of them always travels in a circle one and the same path,—not many paths, although it appears to move along many paths; and the quickest of the stars is wrongly opined to be the slowest, and vice versa.
822a. πειρῶ περὶ αὐτοῦ τό γε τοσοῦτον φράζειν ὡς σαφέστατα.ΑΘ. πειρατέον. οὐ γάρ ἐστι τοῦτο, ὦ ἄριστοι, τὸ δόγμα ὀρθὸν περὶ σελήνης τε καὶ ἡλίου καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἄστρων, ὡς ἄρα πλανᾶταί ποτε, πᾶν δὲ τοὐναντίον ἔχει τούτου—τὴν αὐτὴν γὰρ αὐτῶν ὁδὸν ἕκαστον καὶ οὐ πολλὰς ἀλλὰ μίαν ἀεὶ κύκλῳ διεξέρχεται, φαίνεται δὲ πολλὰς φερόμενον—τὸ δὲ τάχιστον αὐτῶν ὂν βραδύτατον οὐκ ὀρθῶς αὖ δοξάζεται, τὸ δʼ ἐναντίον ἐναντίως.
822b. If these are the real facts and we imagine otherwise,—well, suppose we held a similar notion about horses racing at Olympia, or about long-distance runners, and proclaimed the quickest to be slowest and the slowest quickest, and sang chants lauding the loser as the winner, why, then, the laudations we bestowed on the runners would be neither right nor acceptable, though they were but mortal men. But in the present case, when we commit the same error about gods, do we not think that what would have been ludicrous and wrong there and then is, here and now and in dealing with this subject, by no means ludicrous and assuredly not pleasing to the gods, when concerning gods we repeat a tale that is false?
822b. ταῦτʼ οὖν εἰ πέφυκεν μὲν οὕτως, ἡμεῖς δὲ μὴ ταύτῃ δόξομεν, εἰ μὲν ἐν Ὀλυμπίᾳ θεόντων ἵππων οὕτως ἢ δολιχοδρόμων ἀνδρῶν διενοούμεθα πέρι, καὶ προσηγορεύομεν τὸν τάχιστον μὲν ὡς βραδύτατον, τὸν δὲ βραδύτατον ὡς τάχιστον, ἐγκώμιά τε ποιοῦντες ᾔδομεν τὸν ἡττώμενον νενικηκότα, οὔτε ὀρθῶς ἂν οὔτʼ οἶμαι προσφιλῶς τοῖς δρομεῦσιν ἡμᾶς ἂν τὰ ἐγκώμια προσάπτειν ἀνθρώποις οὖσιν· νῦν δὲ δὴ περὶ θεοὺς τὰ αὐτὰ ταῦτα ἐξαμαρτανόντων ἡμῶν, ἆρʼ οὐκ οἰόμεθα ⟨ὃ⟩ γελοῖόν τε καὶ οὐκ ὀρθὸν ἐκεῖ γιγνόμενον ἦν ἂν τότε, νῦν ἐνταυθοῖ καὶ ἐν τούτοισι γίγνεσθαι γελοῖον μὲν οὐδαμῶς, οὐ μὴν οὐδὲ θεοφιλές γε, ψευδῆ φήμην ἡμῶν κατὰ θεῶν ὑμνούντων.
822c. Clin. Very true, if the facts are as you say.
822c. ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα, εἴπερ γε οὕτω ταῦτʼ ἐστίν.
Ath. Then, if we demonstrate that they really are so, shall all these subjects be learnt up to the point mentioned, and, failing that demonstration, be left alone? Is that to be our agreement?
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ἂν μὲν δείξωμεν οὕτω ταῦτʼ ἔχοντα, μαθητέα μέχρι γε τούτου τὰ τοιαῦτα πάντα, μὴ δειχθέντων δὲ ἐατέον; καὶ ταῦτα ἡμῖν οὕτω συγκείσθω;
822d. Clin. Certainly.
822d. ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Ath. We may now say that our regulations concerning subjects of education have been completed. The subject of hunting, and similar pursuits, must now be dealt with in a similar manner. The duty laid upon the lawgiver probably goes further than the bare task of enacting laws: in addition to laws, there is something else which falls naturally between advice and law— a thing which has often cropped up in the course of our discussion, as, for example, in connection with the nurture of young children: such matters, we say, should not be left unregulated, but it would be most foolish to regard those regulations as enacted laws.
ΑΘ. ἤδη τοίνυν χρὴ φάναι τέλος ἔχειν τά γε παιδείας μαθημάτων πέρι νόμιμα· περὶ δὲ θήρας ὡσαύτως διανοηθῆναι χρὴ καὶ περὶ ἁπάντων ὁπόσα τοιαῦτα. κινδυνεύει γὰρ δὴ νομοθέτῃ τὸ προσταττόμενον ἐπὶ μεῖζον εἶναι τοῦ νόμους θέντα ἀπηλλάχθαι, ἕτερον δέ τι πρὸς τοῖς νόμοις εἶναι μεταξύ τι νουθετήσεώς τε πεφυκὸς ἅμα καὶ νόμων, ὃ δὴ πολλάκις ἡμῶν ἐμπέπτωκεν τοῖς λόγοις, οἷον περὶ τὴν τῶν σφόδρα νέων παίδων τροφήν·
822e. When, then, the laws and the whole constitution have been thus written down, our praise of the citizen who is preeminent for virtue will not be complete when we say that the virtuous man is he who is the best servant of the laws and the most obedient;
822e. οὐ γὰρ ἄρρητά φαμεν εἶναι, λέγοντές τε αὐτά, ὡς νόμους οἴεσθαι τιθεμένους εἶναι πολλῆς ἀνοίας γέμειν. γεγραμμένων δὴ ταύτῃ τῶν νόμων τε καὶ ὅλης τῆς πολιτείας, οὐ τέλεος ὁ τοῦ διαφέροντος πολίτου πρὸς ἀρετὴν γίγνεται ἔπαινος, ὅταν αὐτόν τις φῇ τὸν ὑπηρετήσαντα τοῖς νόμοις ἄριστα καὶ πειθόμενον μάλιστα, τοῦτον εἶναι τὸν ἀγαθόν·
823. Ath. a more complete statement will be this,—that the virtuous man is he who passes through life consistently obeying the written rules of the lawgiver, as given in his legislation, approbation and disapprobation.
823. ΑΘ.τελεώτερον δὲ ὧδε εἰρημένον, ὡς ἄρα ὃς ἂν τοῖς τοῦ νομοθέτου νομοθετοῦντός τε καὶ ἐπαινοῦντος καὶ ψέγοντος πειθόμενος γράμμασιν διεξέλθῃ τὸν βίον ἄκρατον.
823a. This statement is the most correct way of praising the citizen; and in this way, moreover, the lawgiver must not only write down the laws, but in addition to the laws, and combined with them, he must write down his decisions as to what things are good and what bad; and the perfect citizen must abide by these decisions no less than by the rules enforced by legal penalties. The subject now before us we may adduce as a witness to show more clearly what we mean.
823a. οὗτος ὅ τε λόγος ὀρθότατος εἰς ἔπαινον πολίτου, τόν τε νομοθέτην ὄντως δεῖ μὴ μόνον γράφειν τοὺς νόμους, πρὸς δὲ τοῖς νόμοις, ὅσα καλὰ αὐτῷ δοκεῖ καὶ μὴ καλὰ εἶναι, νόμοις ἐμπεπλεγμένα γράφειν, τὸν δὲ ἄκρον πολίτην μηδὲν ἧττον ταῦτα ἐμπεδοῦν ἢ τὰ ταῖς ζημίαις ὑπὸ νόμων κατειλημμένα. τὸ δὲ δὴ παρὸν ἡμῖν τὰ νῦν ⟨εἰ⟩ οἷον μάρτυρα ἐπαγόμεθα, δηλοῖμεν ἂν ὃ βουλόμεθα μᾶλλον.
823b. Hunting is a large and complex matter, all of which is now generally embraced under this single name. Of the hunting of water-animals there are many varieties, and many of the hunting of fowls; and very many varieties also of hunts of land-animals—not of beasts only, but also, mark you, of men, both in war and often, too, in friendship, a kind of hunt that is partly approved and partly disapproved; and then there are robberies and hunts carried on by pirates and by bands.
823b. θήρα γὰρ πάμπολύ τι πρᾶγμά ἐστι, περιειλημμένον ὀνόματι νῦν σχεδὸν ἑνί. πολλὴ μὲν γὰρ ἡ τῶν ἐνύδρων, πολλὴ δὲ ἡ τῶν πτηνῶν, πάμπολυ δὲ καὶ τὸ περὶ τὰ πεζὰ θηρεύματα, οὐ μόνον θηρίων, ἀλλὰ καὶ τὴν τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀξίαν ἐννοεῖν θήραν, τήν τε κατὰ πόλεμον, πολλὴ δὲ καὶ ἡ κατὰ φιλίαν θηρεύουσα, ἡ μὲν ἔπαινον, ἡ δὲ ψόγον ἔχει· καὶ κλωπεῖαι καὶ λῃστῶν καὶ στρατοπέδων στρατοπέδοις θῆραι.
823c. When the lawgiver is making laws about hunting, he is necessarily bound to make this point clear, and to lay down minatory directions by imposing regulations and penalties for all these kinds. What then ought to be done about these matters? The lawgiver, for his part, will be right in praising or blaming hunting with an eye to the toils and pursuits of the young; and the young man will be right in listening and obeying, and in allowing neither pleasure nor toil to hinder him, and in holding in greater respect the orders that are sanctioned by praise, and carrying them out, rather than those which are enacted by law under threat of penalties.
823c. θήρας δὲ πέρι τιθέντι τῷ νομοθέτῃ τοὺς νόμους οὔτε μὴ δηλοῦν ταῦθʼ οἷόν τε, οὔτε ἐπὶ πᾶσιν τάξεις καὶ ζημίας ἐπιτιθέντα ἀπειλητικὰ νόμιμα τιθέναι. τί δὴ δραστέον περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα; τὸν μέν, τὸν νομοθέτην, ἐπαινέσαι καὶ ψέξαι χρεὼν τὰ περὶ θήρας πρὸς τοὺς τῶν νέων πόνους τε καὶ ἐπιτηδεύματα, τὸν δʼ αὖ νέον ἀκούσαντα πείθεσθαι, καὶ μήθʼ ἡδονὴν μήτε πόνον ἐξείργειν αὐτόν, τῶν δὲ περὶ ἕκαστα ἀπειληθέντων μετὰ ζημίας καὶ νομοθετηθέντων, τὰ μετʼ ἐπαίνου ῥηθέντα μᾶλλον τιμᾶν καὶ προσταχθέντα ἀποτελεῖν.τούτων δὴ προρρηθέντων, ἑξῆς ἂν γίγνοιτο ἔμμετρος ἔπαινος θήρας καὶ ψόγος, ἥτις μὲν βελτίους ἀποτελεῖ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν νέων ἐπαινοῦντος, ψέγοντος δὲ ἣ τἀναντία.
823d. After these prefatory observations there will follow adequate praise and blame of hunting—praise of the kind which renders the souls of the young better, and blame of the kind which does the opposite. Our next step will be to address the young people with prayer—“O friends, would that you might never be seized with any desire or craving for hunting by sea, or for angling, or for ever pursuing water-animals with creels that do your lazy hunting for you, whether you sleep or wake.”
823d. λέγωμεν τοίνυν τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο ἑξῆς προσαγορεύοντες διʼ εὐχῆς τοὺς νέους· ὦ φίλοι, εἴθʼ ὑμᾶς μήτε τις ἐπιθυμία μήτʼ ἔρως τῆς περὶ θάλατταν θήρας ποτὲ λάβοι μηδὲ ἀγκιστρείας μηδʼ ὅλως τῆς τῶν ἐνύδρων ζῴων, μήτε ἐγρηγορόσιν μήτε εὕδουσιν κύρτοις ἀργὸν θήραν διαπονουμένοις.
824. Ath. “And may no longing for man-hunting by sea and piracy overtake you, and render you cruel and lawless hunters; and may the thought of committing robbery in country or city not so much as cross your minds. Neither may there seize upon any of the young the crafty craving for snaring birds— no very gentlemanly pursuit!
824. ΑΘ. μηδʼ αὖ ἄγρας ἀνθρώπων κατὰ θάλατταν λῃστείας τε ἵμερος ἐπελθὼν ὑμῖν θηρευτὰς ὠμοὺς καὶ ἀνόμους ἀποτελοῖ· κλωπείας δʼ ἐν χώρᾳ καὶ πόλει μηδὲ εἰς τὸν ἔσχατον ἐπέλθοι νοῦν ἅψασθαι. μηδʼ αὖ πτηνῶν θήρας αἱμύλος ἔρως οὐ σφόδρα ἐλευθέριος ἐπέλθοι τινὶ νέων.
824a. Thus there is left for our athletes only the hunting and capture of land-animals. Of this branch of hunting, the kind called night-stalking, which is the job of lazy men who sleep in turn, is one that deserves no praise; nor does that kind deserve praise in which there are intervals of rest from toil, when men master the wild force of beasts by nets and traps instead of doing so by the victorious might of a toil-loving soul. Accordingly, the only kind left for all, and the best kind, is the hunting of quadrupeds with horses and dogs and the hunter’s own limbs, when men hunt in person, and subdue all the creatures by means of their own running, striking and shooting—all the men, that is to say, who cultivate the courage that is divine.” Concerning the whole of this subject, the exposition we have now given will serve as the praise and blame; and the law will run thus,—“None shall hinder these truly sacred hunters from hunting wheresoever and howsoever they wish; but the night-trapper who trusts to nets and snares no one shall ever allow to hunt anywhere. The fowler no man shall hinder on fallow land or mountain; but he that finds him on tilled fields or on sacred glebes shall drive him off. The fisherman shall be allowed to hunt in all waters except havens and sacred rivers and pools and lakes, but only on condition that he makes no use of muddying juices.” So now, at last, we may say that all our laws about education are complete.
824a. πεζῶν δὴ μόνον θήρευσίς τε καὶ ἄγρα λοιπὴ τοῖς παρʼ ἡμῖν ἀθληταῖς, ὧν ἡ μὲν τῶν εὑδόντων αὖ κατὰ μέρη, νυκτερεία κληθεῖσα, ἀργῶν ἀνδρῶν, οὐκ ἀξία ἐπαίνου, οὐδʼ ἧττον διαπαύματα πόνων ἔχουσα, ἄρκυσίν τε καὶ πάγαις ἀλλʼ οὐ φιλοπόνου ψυχῆς νίκῃ χειρουμένων τὴν ἄγριον τῶν θηρίων ῥώμην· μόνη δὴ πᾶσιν λοιπὴ καὶ ἀρίστη ἡ τῶν τετραπόδων ἵπποις καὶ κυσὶν καὶ τοῖς ἑαυτῶν θήρα σώμασιν, ὧν ἁπάντων κρατοῦσιν δρόμοις καὶ πληγαῖς καὶ βολαῖς αὐτόχειρες θηρεύοντες, ὅσοις ἀνδρείας τῆς θείας ἐπιμελές.τούτων δὴ πάντων ἔπαινος μὲν πέρι καὶ ψόγος ὁ διειρημένος ἂν εἴη λόγος, νόμος δὲ ὅδε· τούτους μηδεὶς τοὺς ἱεροὺς ὄντως θηρευτὰς κωλυέτω ὅπου καὶ ὅπῃπερ ἂν ἐθέλωσιν κυνηγετεῖν, νυκτερευτὴν δὲ ἄρκυσιν καὶ πλεκταῖς πιστὸν μηδεὶς μηδέποτε ἐάσῃ μηδαμοῦ θηρεῦσαι· τὸν ὀρνιθευτὴν δὲ ἐν ἀργοῖς μὲν καὶ ὄρεσιν μὴ κωλυέτω, ἐν ἐργασίμοις δὲ καὶ ἱεροῖς ἀγρίοις ἐξειργέτω ὁ προστυγχάνων, ἐνυγροθηρευτὴν δέ, πλὴν ἐν λιμέσιν καὶ ἱεροῖς ποταμοῖς τε καὶ ἕλεσι καὶ λίμναις, ἐν τοῖς ἄλλοις δὲ ἐξέστω θηρεύειν, μὴ χρώμενον ὀπῶν ἀναθολώσει μόνον.νῦν οὖν ἤδη πάντα χρὴ φάναι τέλος ἔχειν τά γε παιδείας πέρι νόμιμα.
Clin. You may rightly say so.
ΚΛ. καλῶς ἂν λέγοις.
828a. Ath. Our next task is, with the help of the Delphic oracles, to arrange and ordain by law the festivals, prescribing what sacrifices, and to what deities, it will be good and right for the State to offer: the times and the number of them, however, it is, no doubt, our own business to ordain by ourselves.
828a. ΑΘ. τούτων μὴν ἐχόμενά ἐστιν τάξασθαι μὲν καὶ νομοθετήσασθαι ἑορτὰς μετὰ τῶν ἐκ Δελφῶν μαντειῶν, αἵτινες θυσίαι καὶ θεοῖς οἷστισιν ἄμεινον καὶ λῷον θυούσῃ τῇ πόλει γίγνοιντʼ ἄν· πότε δὲ καὶ πόσαι τὸν ἀριθμόν, σχεδὸν ἴσως ἡμέτερον ἂν νομοθετεῖν ἔνιά γʼ αὐτῶν εἴη.
Clin. Very likely, as regards the number of them.
ΚΛ. τάχʼ ἂν τὸν ἀριθμόν.
Ath. Then let us first state the number. There shall be not less than 365 feasts, so that some one official may always be doing sacrifice to some god or daemon on behalf of the State, the people, and their property.
ΑΘ. τὸν ἀριθμὸν δὴ λέγωμεν πρῶτον· ἔστωσαν γὰρ τῶν μὲν πέντε καὶ ἑξήκοντα καὶ τριακοσίων μηδὲν ἀπολείπουσαι, ὅπως ἂν μία γέ τις ἀρχὴ θύῃ θεῶν ἢ δαιμόνων τινὶ ἀεὶ ὑπὲρ πόλεώς τε καὶ αὐτῶν καὶ κτημάτων.
828b. The interpreters, the priests, the priestesses and the prophets shall assemble, and, in company with the Law-wardens, they shall ordain what the lawgiver is obliged to omit: moreover, these same persons shall determine wherein such omissions consist. For the law will state that there are twelve feasts to the twelve gods who give their names to the several tribes:
828b. ταῦτα δὲ συνελθόντες ἐξηγηταὶ καὶ ἱερεῖς ἱέρειαί τε καὶ μάντεις μετὰ νομοφυλάκων ταξάντων ἃ παραλείπειν ἀνάγκη τῷ νομοθέτῃ· καὶ δὴ καὶ αὐτοῦ τούτου χρὴ γίγνεσθαι ἐπιγνώμονας τοῦ παραλειπομένου τούτους τοὺς αὐτούς. ὁ μὲν γὰρ δὴ νόμος ἐρεῖ δώδεκα μὲν ἑορτὰς εἶναι τοῖς δώδεκα θεοῖς, ὧν ἂν ἡ φυλὴ ἑκάστη ἐπώνυμος ᾖ, θύοντας τούτων ἑκάστοις ἔμμηνα ἱερά, χορούς τε καὶ ἀγῶνας μουσικούς, τοὺς δὲ γυμνικούς, κατὰ τὸ πρέπον προσνέμοντας τοῖς θεοῖς τε αὐτοῖς ἅμα καὶ ταῖς ὥραις ἑκάσταις, γυναικείας τε ἑορτάς, ὅσαις χωρὶς ἀνδρῶν προσήκει καὶ ὅσαις μή, διανέμοντας.
828c. to each of these they shall perform monthly sacrifices and assign choirs and musical contests, and also gymnastic contests, as is suitable both to the gods themselves and to the several seasons of the year; and they shall ordain also women’s festivals, prescribing how many of these shall be for women only, and how many open also to men. Further, they must determine, in conformity with the law, the rites proper to the nether gods, and how many of the celestial gods should be invoked, and what of the rites connected with them should not be mingled but kept apart, and put them in the twelfth month, which is sacred to Pluto; and this god should not be disliked by men who are warriors, but honored as one who is always most good to the human race; for, as I would assert in all seriousness, union is in no way better for soul and body than dissolution.
828c. ἔτι δὲ καὶ τὸ τῶν χθονίων καὶ ὅσους αὖ θεοὺς οὐρανίους ἐπονομαστέον καὶ τὸ τῶν τούτοις ἑπομένων οὐ συμμεικτέον ἀλλὰ χωριστέον, ἐν τῷ τοῦ Πλούτωνος μηνὶ τῷ δωδεκάτῳ κατὰ τὸν νόμον ἀποδιδόντας, καὶ οὐ δυσχεραντέον πολεμικοῖς ἀνθρώποις τὸν τοιοῦτον θεόν, ἀλλὰ τιμητέον ὡς ὄντα ἀεὶ τῷ τῶν ἀνθρώπων γένει ἄριστον· κοινωνία γὰρ ψυχῇ καὶ σώματι διαλύσεως οὐκ ἔστιν ᾗ κρεῖττον, ὡς ἐγὼ φαίην ἂν σπουδῇ λέγων.
829. Ath. Moreover, if they are to arrange these matters adequately, these persons must believe that no other State exists which can compare with ours in respect of the degree in which it possesses leisure and control over the necessities of life; and believe also that it, like an individual, ought to lead a good life.
829. ΑΘ.πρὸς τούτοις δὲ διάνοιαν χρὴ σχεῖν τοὺς διαιρήσοντας ἱκανῶς ταῦτα τοιάνδε, ὡς ἔσθʼ ἡμῖν ἡ πόλις οἵαν οὐκ ἄν τις ἑτέραν εὕροι τῶν νῦν περὶ χρόνου σχολῆς καὶ τῶν ἀναγκαίων ἐξουσίας, δεῖ δὲ αὐτήν, καθάπερ ἕνα ἄνθρωπον, ζῆν εὖ·
829a. But for a good and blessed life, the first requisite is neither to do wrong oneself nor to suffer wrong from others. Of these, the former is not very hard, but it is very hard to secure immunity from suffering wrong; indeed, it is impossible to gain this perfectly, except by becoming perfectly good. So likewise a State may obtain a life of peace if it becomes good, but if bad, a life of war both abroad and at home. This being so, all men must train for war not in war-time, but while they are living in peace.
829a. τοῖς δὲ εὐδαιμόνως ζῶσιν ὑπάρχειν ἀνάγκη πρῶτον τὸ μήθʼ ἑαυτοὺς ἀδικεῖν μήτε ὑφʼ ἑτέρων αὐτοὺς ἀδικεῖσθαι. τούτοιν δὲ τὸ μὲν οὐ πάνυ χαλεπόν, τοῦ δὲ μὴ ἀδικεῖσθαι κτήσασθαι δύναμιν παγχάλεπον, καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν αὐτὸ τελέως σχεῖν ἄλλως ἢ τελέως γενόμενον ἀγαθόν· ταὐτὸν δὴ τοῦτο ἔστι καὶ πόλει ὑπάρχειν, γενομένῃ μὲν ἀγαθῇ βίος εἰρηνικός, πολεμικὸς δὲ ἔξωθέν τε καὶ ἔνδοθεν, ἂν ᾖ κακή. τούτων δὲ ταύτῃ σχεδὸν ἐχόντων, οὐκ ἐν πολέμῳ τὸν πόλεμον ἑκάστοις γυμναστέον, ἀλλʼ ἐν τῷ τῆς εἰρήνης βίῳ.
829b. Therefore, a judicious State must carry out a march, every month, for not less than one whole day, or more (according as the rulers decree), paying no heed to cold weather or hot: all shall join in it—men, women and children—whenever the rulers decide to march them out en masse, and at other times they shall go in sections. Along with sacrifices, they must continually devise noble games, to serve as festival-contests, modelled as closely as possible on those of war.
829b. δεῖ τοίνυν πόλιν ἑκάστου μηνὸς νοῦν κεκτημένην στρατεύεσθαι μὴ ἔλαττον μιᾶς ἡμέρας, πλείους δέ, ὡς ἂν καὶ τοῖς ἄρχουσιν συνδοκῇ, μηδὲν χειμῶνας ἢ καύματα διευλαβουμένους, αὐτούς τε ἅμα καὶ γυναῖκας καὶ παῖδας, ὅταν ὡς πανδημίαν ἐξάγειν δόξῃ τοῖς ἄρχουσιν, τοτὲ δὲ καὶ κατὰ μέρη· καί τινας ἀεὶ παιδιὰς μηχανᾶσθαι καλὰς ἅμα θυσίαις, ὅπως ἂν γίγνωνται μάχαι τινὲς ἑορταστικαί, μιμούμεναι τὰς πολεμικὰς ὅτι μάλιστα ἐναργῶς μάχας.
829c. At each of these they must distribute prizes and awards of merit, and compose for one another speeches of praise and blame, according to the character each one exhibits not only in the contests, but in his life generally, magnifying him who is accounted most good and blaming him who is not. Such speeches not everyone shall compose; for, first, no one who is under fifty years old shall compose one, and further, no one shall do so who, though he may be fully proficient in poetry and music, has not as yet performed any noble or notable deed.
829c. νικητήρια δὲ καὶ ἀριστεῖα ἑκάστοισι τούτων δεῖ διανέμειν ἐγκώμιά τε καὶ ψόγους ποιεῖν ἀλλήλοις, ὁποῖός τις ἂν ἕκαστος γίγνηται κατά τε τοὺς ἀγῶνας ἐν παντί τε αὖ τῷ βίῳ, τόν τε ἄριστον δοκοῦντα εἶναι κοσμοῦντας καὶ τὸν μὴ ψέγοντας. ποιητὴς δὲ ἔστω τῶν τοιούτων μὴ ἅπας, ἀλλὰ γεγονὼς πρῶτον μὲν μὴ ἔλαττον πεντήκοντα ἐτῶν, μηδʼ αὖ τῶν ὁπόσοι ποίησιν μὲν καὶ μοῦσαν ἱκανῶς κεκτημένοι ἐν αὑτοῖς εἰσιν, καλὸν δὲ ἔργον καὶ ἐπιφανὲς μηδὲν δράσαντες πώποτε·
829d. But, even though they be not musical, those poems shall be sung which are composed by men who are personally good and honored in the State as performers of noble deeds. The adjudication of these shall lie with the Educator and the rest of the Law-wardens, who shall grant them the sole privilege of free speech in song; whereas to the others no permission shall be given; nor yet shall anyone venture to sing an unauthorized song— not even should it be sweeter than the hymns of Orpheus or of Thamyras,—but only such sacred poems as have won the judges’ approval and have been presented to the gods, or those by good men which have been adjudged to have duly distributed praise or blame.
829d. ὅσοι δὲ ἀγαθοί τε αὐτοὶ καὶ τίμιοι ἐν τῇ πόλει, ἔργων ὄντες δημιουργοὶ καλῶν, τὰ τῶν τοιούτων ᾀδέσθω ποιήματα, ἐὰν καὶ μὴ μουσικὰ πεφύκῃ. κρίσις δὲ αὐτῶν ἔστω παρά τε τῷ παιδευτῇ καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις νομοφύλαξι, τοῦτο ἀποδιδόντων αὐτοῖς γέρας, παρρησίαν ἐν μούσαις εἶναι μόνοις, τοῖς δὲ ἄλλοις μηδεμίαν ἐξουσίαν γίγνεσθαι, μηδέ τινα τολμᾶν ᾄδειν ἀδόκιμον μοῦσαν μὴ κρινάντων τῶν νομοφυλάκων, μηδʼ ἂν ἡδίων ᾖ τῶν Θαμύρου τε καὶ Ὀρφείων ὕμνων, ἀλλʼ ὅσα τε ἱερὰ κριθέντα ποιήματα ἐδόθη τοῖς θεοῖς, καὶ ὅσα ἀγαθῶν ὄντων ἀνδρῶν ψέγοντα ἢ ἐπαινοῦντά τινας ἐκρίθη μετρίως δρᾶν τὸ τοιοῦτον.
829e. In regard both to military operations and to freedom of poetic speech I state that the same rules shall apply equally to both men and women.
829e. τὰ αὐτὰ δὲ λέγω στρατείας τε πέρι καὶ τῆς ἐν ποιήσεσι παρρησίας γυναιξί τε καὶ ἀνδράσιν ὁμοίως γίγνεσθαι δεῖν.
830. Ath. The lawgiver ought to commune with himself and reason thus—“Come now, what men am I to rear up, when I have made ready the whole State?
830. ΑΘ. χρὴ δὲ ἀναφέρειν παραδεικνύντα ἑαυτῷ τὸν νομοθέτην τῷ λόγῳ· φέρε, τίνας ποτὲ τρέφω τὴν πόλιν ὅλην παρασκευάσας;
830a. Are they not to be competitors in the greatest of contests, wherein their antagonists will be numberless?” “Most certainly,” one would rightly reply. What then? Suppose we had been rearing boxers or pancratiasts or competitors in any similar branch of athletics, should we have gone straight into the contest without previously engaging in daily combat with someone? If we were boxers, for a great many days before the contest we should have been learning how to fight, and working hard, practicing in mimicry all those methods we meant to employ on the day we should be fighting for victory, and imitating the real thing as nearly as possible: thus, we should don padded gloves instead of proper ring-gloves, so as to get the best possible practice in giving blows and dodging them; and if we chanced to be very short of training-mates, do you suppose that we should be deterred by fear of the laughter of fools from hanging up a lifeless dummy and practicing on it?
830a. ἆρʼ οὐκ ἀθλητὰς τῶν μεγίστων ἀγώνων, οἷς ἀνταγωνισταὶ μυρίοι ὑπάρχουσι; καὶ πάνυ γε, φαίη τις ἂν ὀρθῶς λέγων. τί δῆτα; εἰ πύκτας ἢ παγκρατιαστὰς ἐτρέφομεν ἤ τι τῶν τοιούτων ἕτερον ἀγωνισμάτων ἀθλοῦντας, ἆρα εἰς αὐτὸν ἂν ἀπηντῶμεν τὸν ἀγῶνα, ἐν τῷ πρόσθεν χρόνῳ οὐδενὶ καθʼ ἡμέραν προσμαχόμενοι; ἢ πύκται γε ὄντες παμπόλλας ἂν ἡμέρας ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ ἀγῶνος ἐμανθάνομέν τε ἂν μάχεσθαι καὶ διεπονούμεθα, μιμούμενοι πάντα ἐκεῖνα ὁπόσοις ἐμέλλομεν εἰς τότε χρήσεσθαι περὶ τῆς νίκης διαμαχόμενοι, καὶ ὡς ἐγγύτατα τοῦ ὁμοίου ἰόντες, ἀντὶ ἱμάντων σφαίρας ἂν περιεδούμεθα, ὅπως αἱ πληγαί τε καὶ αἱ τῶν πληγῶν εὐλάβειαι διεμελετῶντο εἰς τὸ δυνατὸν ἱκανῶς, εἴ τέ τις ἡμῖν συγγυμναστῶν συνέβαινεν ἀπορία πλείων, ἆρʼ ἂν δείσαντες τὸν τῶν ἀνοήτων γέλωτα οὐκ ἂν ἐτολμῶμεν κρεμαννύντες εἴδωλον ἄψυχον γυμνάζεσθαι πρὸς αὐτό;
830b. Indeed, if ever we were in a desert, and without either live or lifeless training-mates, would we not have recourse to shadow-fighting of the most literal kind, against ourselves?
830b. καὶ ἔτι πάντων τῶν τε ἐμψύχων καὶ τῶν ἀψύχων ἀπορήσαντές ποτε, ἐν ἐρημίᾳ συγγυμναστῶν ἆρά γε οὐκ ἐτολμήσαμεν ἂν αὐτοὶ πρὸς ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς σκιαμαχεῖν ὄντως;
830c. Or what else should one call the practice of pugilistic posturing?
830c. ἢ τί ποτε ἄλλο τὴν τοῦ χειρονομεῖν μελέτην ἄν τις φαίη γεγονέναι;
Clin. There is no other name for it, Stranger, than the one you have just given to it.
ΚΛ. σχεδόν, ὦ ξένε, οὐδὲν ἄλλο γε πλὴν τοῦτο αὐτὸ ὃ σὺ νῦν ἔφθεγξαι.
Ath. What then? Is the fighting force of our State to venture to come forward every time to fight for their lives, their children, their goods, and for the whole State, after a less thorough preparation than the competitors we have been describing?
ΑΘ. τί οὖν; τὸ τῆς πόλεως ἡμῖν μάχιμον ἦ χεῖρόν τι παρασκευασάμενον τῶν τοιούτων ἀγωνιστῶν εἰς τὸν μέγιστον τῶν ἀγώνων ἑκάστοτε τολμήσει παριέναι, διαμαχούμενον περὶ ψυχῆς καὶ παίδων καὶ χρημάτων καὶ ὅλης τῆς πόλεως;
830d. And so is their lawgiver, through fear lest these training-bouts may appear ridiculous to some, to refrain from laying down laws whereby he will ordain field-operations, of which the minor kind, without heavy arms, will take place daily, if possible,—and to this end both the choristry and all the gymnastic shall be directed,—while the others, as a major kind of gymnastics in full armor, he shall order to be held at least once a month? In this latter kind they will engage in contests with one another throughout the whole country, contending in the capturing of forts and in ambuscades and in all forms of mimic warfare;
830d. καὶ ταῦτα δὴ φοβηθεὶς αὐτῶν ὁ νομοθέτης τὰ πρὸς ἀλλήλους γυμνάσια μὴ φαίνηταί τισιν γελοῖα, οὐκ ἄρα νομοθετήσει, στρατεύεσθαι προστάττων μάλιστα μὲν ἑκάστης ἡμέρας τά γε σμικρὰ χωρὶς τῶν ὅπλων, χορούς τε εἰς ταῦτα ἅμα καὶ γυμναστικὴν πᾶσαν συντείνων, τὰς δὲ οἷόν τινας μείζους τε καὶ ἐλάττους γυμνασίας μὴ ἔλαττον ἢ κατὰ μῆνα ἕκαστον ποιεῖσθαι προστάξει, ἁμίλλας τε πρὸς ἀλλήλους ποιουμένους κατὰ πᾶσαν τὴν χώραν, ἐπὶ κατάληψιν χωρίων ἁμιλλωμένους καὶ ἐνέδρας, καὶ πᾶσαν μιμουμένους τὴν πολεμικήν,
831. Ath. in fact, they shall do literal fighting with balls and darts as nearly real as possible,—though the points of the darts shall be made less dangerous,—in order that their games of combat may not be devoid of some element of alarm, but may provide terrors and indicate to some extent who is stout-hearted and who not: to the former the lawgiver shall duly assign honors, to the latter degradation, that thus he may prepare the whole State to be serviceable throughout life in the real contest. Moreover, if a man gets killed in these sham fights, inasmuch as the murder is involuntary, he shall pronounce the slayer to be pure of hands, when he has been legally purified; for he will reflect that, when a few men die, others equally good will grow up in their place, whereas, once fear is, so to speak, dead, he will be unable to find a test to distinguish, in all such cases, the good from the bad,— and that is a far greater evil than the other for a State.
831. ΑΘ. ὄντως σφαιρομαχεῖν τε καὶ βολαῖς ὡς ἐγγύτατα τῶν ἀληθῶν, χρωμένους ὑποκινδύνοις βέλεσιν, ὅπως μὴ παντάπασιν ἄφοβος ἡ πρὸς ἀλλήλους γίγνηται παιδιά, δείματα δὲ παρέχῃ καί τινα τρόπον δηλοῖ τόν τε εὔψυχον καὶ τὸν μή, καὶ τοῖς μὲν τιμάς, τοῖς δὲ καὶ ἀτιμίας διανέμων ὀρθῶς, τὴν πόλιν ὅλην εἰς τὸν ἀληθινὸν ἀγῶνα διὰ βίου παρασκευάζῃ χρησίμην, καὶ δὴ καί τινος ἀποθανόντος οὕτως, ὡς ἀκουσίου τοῦ φόνου γενομένου, τιθῇ τὸν ἀποκτείναντα κατὰ νόμον καθαρθέντα καθαρὸν εἶναι χεῖρας, ἡγούμενος ἀνθρώπων μὲν τελευτησάντων μὴ πολλῶν, ἑτέρους πάλιν οὐ χείρους φύσεσθαι, φόβου δὲ οἷον τελευτήσαντος, ἐν πᾶσιν τοῖς τοιούτοις βάσανον οὐχ εὑρήσειν τῶν τε ἀμεινόνων καὶ χειρόνων, οὐ
831b. Clin. We, at least, Stranger, would certainly agree that every State should both ordain and practice these things.Ath. Are we all aware of the reason why such choristry and such contests do not at present exist anywhere in the States, except to a very small extent? Shall we say that this is due to the ignorance of the populace and of those who legislate for them?Clin. Possibly.Ath. Not so, by any means, my ingenious Clinias! What we ought to say is that there are two causes, and both most weighty ones.
831b. σμικρῷ πόλει μεῖζον κακὸν ἐκείνου;ΚΛ. συμφαῖμεν ἂν ἡμεῖς γε, ὦ ξένε, τὰ τοιαῦτα δεῖν καὶ νομοθετεῖν καὶ ἐπιτηδεύειν πόλιν ἅπασαν.ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν γιγνώσκομεν ἅπαντες τὴν αἰτίαν διότι ποτὲ νῦν ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν ἡ τοιαύτη χορεία καὶ ἀγωνία σχεδὸν οὐδαμῇ οὐδαμῶς ἐστιν, εἰ μὴ πάνυ τι σμικρά; ἢ φῶμεν διʼ ἀμαθίαν τῶν πολλῶν καὶ τῶν τιθέντων αὐτοῖς τοὺς νόμους;ΚΛ. τάχʼ ἄν.
831c. Clin. What are they?Ath. The first springs from a lust for wealth which allows a man no leisure time for attention to anything else save his own private property; and when the soul of every citizen hangs upon this, it is incapable of attending to matters other than daily gain. Whatsoever science or pursuit leads to this, every man individually is most ready to learn and to practice; but all else he laughs to scorn.
831c. ΑΘ. οὐδαμῶς, ὦ μακάριε Κλεινία· δύο δὲ χρὴ φάναι τούτων αἰτίας εἶναι καὶ μάλα ἱκανάς.ΚΛ. ποίας;ΑΘ. τὴν μὲν ὑπʼ ἔρωτος πλούτου πάντα χρόνον ἄσχολον ποιοῦντος τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιμελεῖσθαι πλὴν τῶν ἰδίων κτημάτων, ἐξ ὧν κρεμαμένη πᾶσα ψυχὴ πολίτου παντὸς οὐκ ἄν ποτε δύναιτο τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιμέλειαν ἴσχειν πλὴν τοῦ καθʼ ἡμέραν κέρδους· καὶ ὅτι μὲν πρὸς τοῦτο φέρει μάθημα ἢ καὶ ἐπιτήδευμα, ἰδίᾳ πᾶς μανθάνειν τε καὶ ἀσκεῖν ἑτοιμότατός ἐστιν, τῶν δὲ ἄλλων καταγελᾷ.
831d. This we must assert to be one particular cause why a State is unwilling to be in earnest about this, or any other, fine and noble pursuit; and why, on the other hand, every individual, because of his greed for silver and gold, is willing to toil at every art and device, noble or ignoble, if he is likely to get rich by it,—willing, too, to perform actions both holy and unholy—nay, utterly shameful—without a scruple, provided only that he is able to sate himself to repletion, like a beast, with all manner of foods and drinks and wenchings.
831d. τοῦτο μὲν ἓν καὶ ταύτην μίαν αἰτίαν χρὴ φάναι τοῦ μήτε τοῦτο μήτʼ ἄλλο μηδὲν καλὸν κἀγαθὸν ἐθέλειν ἐπιτήδευμα πόλιν σπουδάζειν, ἀλλὰ διὰ τὴν τοῦ χρυσοῦ τε καὶ ἀργύρου ἀπληστίαν πᾶσαν μὲν τέχνην καὶ μηχανήν, καλλίω τε καὶ ἀσχημονεστέραν, ἐθέλειν ὑπομένειν πάντα ἄνδρα, εἰ μέλλει πλούσιος ἔσεσθαι, καὶ πρᾶξιν πράττειν ὅσιόν τε καὶ ἀνόσιον καὶ πάντως αἰσχράν, μηδὲν δυσχεραίνοντα, ἐὰν μόνον ἔχῃ δύναμιν καθάπερ θηρίῳ τοῦ φαγεῖν παντοδαπὰ καὶ πιεῖν ὡσαύτως καὶ ἀφροδισίων πᾶσαν πάντως παρασχεῖν πλησμονήν.
831e. Clin. True.
831e. ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς.
832. Ath. Then let this which I describe be laid down as one cause which hinders the States from adequately practicing either military operations or any other noble pursuits and which turns men who are of a quiet nature into traders, ship-owners, and servants, while of the bold it makes pirates, burglars, temple-robbers, fighters and despots,—and that though, in some cases, they are not ill-natured, but merely ill-fortuned.
832. ΑΘ. αὕτη μὲν τοίνυν, ἣν λέγω, μία κείσθω διακωλύουσα αἰτία τοῦ μήτε ἄλλο καλὸν μήτε τὰ πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον ἱκανῶς ἐῶσα ἀσκεῖν τὰς πόλεις, ἀλλʼ ἐμπόρους τε καὶ ναυκλήρους καὶ διακόνους πάντως τοὺς φύσει κοσμίους τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀπεργαζομένη, τοὺς δὲ ἀνδρείους λῃστὰς καὶ τοιχωρύχους καὶ ἱεροσύλους καὶ πολεμικοὺς καὶ τυραννικοὺς ποιοῦσα, καὶ μάλʼ ἐνίοτε οὐκ ἀφυεῖς ὄντας, δυστυχοῦντάς γε μήν.
832a. Clin. How so?Ath. Well, how could I describe otherwise than as utterly unfortunate men who are compelled to go through life with hunger always in their own souls?Clin. This, then, is one cause: what is the second cause you speak of, Stranger?Ath. You are right in reminding me.Meg. One cause, as you assert, is this lifelong insatiable pursuit, which wholly engrosses each man, and hinders each and all from rightly practicing military operations.
832a. ΚΛ. πῶς λέγεις;ΑΘ. πῶς μὲν οὖν αὐτοὺς οὐ λέγοιμʼ ἂν τὸ παράπαν δυστυχεῖς, οἷς γε ἀνάγκη διὰ βίου πεινῶσιν τὴν ψυχὴν ἀεὶ τὴν αὑτῶν διεξελθεῖν;ΚΛ. αὕτη μὲν τοίνυν μία· τὴν δὲ δὴ δευτέραν αἰτίαν τίνα λέγεις, ὦ ξένε;ΑΘ. καλῶς ὑπέμνησας.ΚΛ. αὕτη μὲν δή, φῂς σύ, μία, ἡ διὰ βίου ἄπληστος ζήτησις, παρέχουσα ἄσχολον ἕκαστον, ἐμπόδιος γίγνεται τοῦ μὴ καλῶς ἀσκεῖν τὰ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον ἑκάστους.